After Supreme Court Victory, Colorado Baker Back in Court for Declining Gender Transition Cake

SilverBear

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By requiring to do something specific that violates his religious beliefs. He doesn't refuse to sell in general to the LGTBQ community.
just as racists had segregated places of business that would still sell to black customers, they just had to go to the back door or sit in the back of the bus. Blacks even had their own drinking fountains but that wasn't good enough for them they valued their rights over the rights of all those good God fearing racists.
 
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Aldebaran

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yes you did dodge...but then you usually do.

When I say "you", I'm not referring to myself. But I suppose I'd better get used to having to give these reading comprehension lessons on a regular basis.
 
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Aldebaran

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would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?

If the African wanted him to design a cake specifically for a homosexual act disguised as a legitimate marriage, then it wouldn't be wrong to not fill that order if it violated the baker's religious beliefs.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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you keep ignoring the question.
would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?
why can't you be honest enough to answer the question?

Because the question isn't really relevant to the discussion. Jack Phillips sells to coloured people in his store so why bring it up? If the idea is that because we force people to sell products to people and don't allow them to discriminate on the basis of skin colour, that doesn't really seem relevant. Especially when it's been pointed out there are scenarios where you would be okay with LGBT refusing to serve people who do not align with their ideology. Such as if an LGBT person was asked to make an Anti-LGBT product. You would not be inclined to force teh LGBT in question to make such a thing. Let's say a pro-LGBT printer is asked to produce a new translation of the bible. They might have ideological commitments against that. Would you be okay forcing them?

No you wouldn't.
 
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SilverBear

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If the African wanted him to design a cake specifically for a homosexual act disguised as a legitimate marriage, then it wouldn't be wrong to not fill that order if it violated the baker's religious beliefs.
your hate is on display again
 
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SilverBear

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Because the question isn't really relevant to the discussion.
of course it is.

Your unwillingness to honestly answer the question shows that you think it is wrong for business owners to refuse goods and services to black people even if that business owner is doing so out his his strongly held religious beliefs. It would be wrong and offensive to expect African Americans to have to call ahead or somehow check to see if their business would be welcomed at a given store. But this is exactly what you are saying it is good and just to do to LGBT individuals? You have made it clear it's not about the rights of the baker, if it were then you would have no problem defending that bakers 'right' to refuse service to blacks. It's not about which minority the baker is discriminating against because in both cases his choice to discriminate is based on his firmly held beliefs. It's not about the baker's beliefs because they believe what they believe and you can only say you disagree but your disagreement doesn't make the baker's beliefs any less valid or any less protected by the law.
The only thing left is hate, and not any hate the baker might harbor, but your choice to hate.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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of course it is.

Your unwillingness to honestly answer the question shows that you think it is wrong for business owners to refuse goods and services to black people even if that business owner is doing so out his his strongly held religious beliefs. It would be wrong and offensive to expect African Americans to have to call ahead or somehow check to see if their business would be welcomed at a given store. But this is exactly what you are saying it is good and just to do to LGBT individuals? You have made it clear it's not about the rights of the baker, if it were then you would have no problem defending that bakers 'right' to refuse service to blacks. It's not about which minority the baker is discriminating against because in both cases his choice to discriminate is based on his firmly held beliefs. It's not about the baker's beliefs because they believe what they believe and you can only say you disagree but your disagreement doesn't make the baker's beliefs any less valid or any less protected by the law.
The only thing left is hate, and not any hate the baker might harbor, but your choice to hate.

This is pointless. If you believe everyone who does not support the LGBT hates them then we cannot have a discussion. You are incapable of processing ideas. Nothing Jack Phillips has done reeks of hatred, only his beliefs being unable to support the LGBT. Which you would force him to do.
 
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SilverBear

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This is pointless. If you believe everyone who does not support the LGBT hates them then we cannot have a discussion. You are incapable of processing ideas. Nothing Jack Phillips has done reeks of hatred, only his beliefs being unable to support the LGBT. Which you would force him to do.

point to what i said that's untrue in post 207
 
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Aldebaran

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if that were the case i wouldn't be confronting you about your personal prejudices

Agreeing with me is hardly defined as confronting.
 
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truth doesn't
Reminds me of the discussion I had with a member of a church about ECT vs CI*. His belief in ECT was strong but his ability to support it was weak. So he finally held up his large KJV and said, "I believe what the bible says!" And I siad, "So do I. Where we differ is in interpretation." I really felt bad. I honestly thought that guy was going to pop a blood vessel in his neck. The anger was tangible.

It shouldn't be that way. I've lost many an argument, and it was always because I couldn't support my position. When I was younger, I would get angry with the other person, but as I aged I only got angry at myself. I've always been a bit of a "Mr. Spock" in arguments. i.e. if I get emotional, I've lost the argument.

But an interesting thing happened when I lost arguments. It motivated me to KNOW my topic, or at least learn it as we go along. And the results were that usually one of two things happen:
1. I learn to support my argument.
2. My mind is changed.

I've actually shocked a few sparring opponents by changing my mind after some research. They think I'm faking it at first. They literally don't know how to respond to it. I classic example was when I changed my beliefs from ECT to CI about 12 years ago.

Also, regarding truth, I think Indiana Jones said it best: "Archaeology is the search for fact ... not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.



*ECT is Eternal Conscious Torment and CI is Conditional Immortality - annihilation. They are about the fate of the lost after the body dies.
 
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if that were the case i wouldn't be confronting you about your personal prejudices
No. That's more along the lines of Ad-hominem.

We're all biased and have personal prejudices. It is the human condition.
 
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you think gay people should
Depends on the gay person. Heck, same goes for straight people, white people, men, women, you name it.

If you've ever, as a white man, walked into a Samoan bar in Hawaii and suddenly felt like Arnold walking into that biker bar at the beginning of Terminator II, sans the superhuman strength, you'd know what I'm talking about. It's best to step our immediately.

Anybody that has been around, regardless of race, sex, etc. has found themself in a place where they are clearly not wanted. You don't have to be homosexual to experience that. Luckily, you also don't have to "wear it on your sleeve" the same as your race, if you get my drift.
 
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The equal protection clause protects religious views ad well. You are requiring someone with firmly held practice of a religion to be subservient to another protected class. All classes are protected from discrimination. And you are requiring one protected class to be a servent of another. It's the LHTBQ community that is discriminating against this baker. Because they do not have to go there and force him to violate his religious beliefs. These things violate the first amendment. The free exercise of his religion is being limited. The trans person could go anywhere and get a cake. But he deliberately chose to violate this person's religious freedoms.
I liked your post but can not fully agree with it due to this statement: "All classes are protected from discrimination." I don't believe that. Rather, I believe all INDIVIDUALS are protected from discrimination. I know it sounds like I'm picking nits, but as Rush Limbaugh said, words have meaning. My rights are protected because I'm an individual citizen. What class I'm a member of does not even enter into it. And that is the genius of our constitution. I completely agree with the rest and your point in general.

The old phrase, "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins" is being used by people who try to plant their nose in the path of your swinging hand as you walk down the street, and then claim you're trying to hit them. Frankly, if it wasn't so serious it would be funny.
 
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rjs330

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of course it is.

Your unwillingness to honestly answer the question shows that you think it is wrong for business owners to refuse goods and services to black people even if that business owner is doing so out his his strongly held religious beliefs. It would be wrong and offensive to expect African Americans to have to call ahead or somehow check to see if their business would be welcomed at a given store. But this is exactly what you are saying it is good and just to do to LGBT individuals? You have made it clear it's not about the rights of the baker, if it were then you would have no problem defending that bakers 'right' to refuse service to blacks. It's not about which minority the baker is discriminating against because in both cases his choice to discriminate is based on his firmly held beliefs. It's not about the baker's beliefs because they believe what they believe and you can only say you disagree but your disagreement doesn't make the baker's beliefs any less valid or any less protected by the law.
The only thing left is hate, and not any hate the baker might harbor, but your choice to hate.

You once again are forcing ones protected rights to be subservient to someone else's. The person is not required to go to that baker. They could go anywhere else. They went specifically to force the baker to be subservient. The baker's rights are equal not less. Go somewhere else.b
 
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Aldebaran

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You once again are forcing drones protected rights to be subservient to someone else's. The person is not required to go to that baker. They could go anywhere else. They went specifically to force the baker to be subservient. The baker's rights are equal not less. Go somewhere else.b

They used to say they just want to be left alone to be who they are. It didn't take long for that to not be good enough. Now it's more like, "Agree with me, endorse what I feel, create a cake that celebrates it or I'll sue you!"
 
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You once again are forcing ones protected rights to be subservient to someone else's. The person is not required to go to that baker. They could go anywhere else.

Would it be wrong for any baker to refuse to serve African American's because of the baker's strongly held religious beliefs?
 
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