20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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Timtofly

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The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible. It is the time when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever"?
Is "forever" longer than 1,000 years?

Shortly after the 7th trumpet is blown, we find the time of wrath and the time of the judgment of the dead have come.
This text proves the book is not in chronological order.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
I do not see 1000 years making forever any shorter.
 
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Timtofly

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Your chronological theory on Revelation falls apart in numerous ways. Let us look at one example: Revelation 10:1-3 says, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.
Jesus said it was finished on the Cross. Everything after that is in the realm of heaven then. You claim symbolism until the declaration of time ending, and then, that is literal?
 
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Timtofly

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At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.
It does not symbolically state a symbolic resurrection. The judgment is physical death.

It does not even state a literal resurrection.

The dead are symbolic for those living in Adam's flesh. Adam's flesh is no longer allowed to exist.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It does not symbolically state a symbolic resurrection. The judgment is physical death.

It does not even state a literal resurrection.

The dead are symbolic for those living in Adam's flesh. Adam's flesh is no longer allowed to exist.

You are explaining away what is literal and climactic in order to suit your doctrine. As is normal, you do not even address one single argument i presented that negates your beliefs.
 
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Timtofly

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Unfortunately, you can see the word "thousand" in Revelation chapter 20, but it keeps you from seeing Revelation 11:15-18.
1000 years does not make the forever reign of Christ any shorter. It does not make dead people any more dead or any less dead. It does not change a reward from being any thing else beside a reward.
 
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Timtofly

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You are explaining away what is literal and climactic in order to suit your doctrine. As is normal, you do not even address one single argument i presented that negates your beliefs.
If you place the notion of a resurrection into the biblical text where it is not stated, that is your free will choice. I do not have to accept your insertion.

There is a resurrection in Revelation 20:4 immediately after the battle of Armageddon where Christ is physically on earth and just brought a climactic end to Adam's flesh and blood. All humanity is physically dead, and I would say spiritually dead, as all have been removed from the Lamb's book of life over the last 42 months.

The only thing left on earth is to restore it and resurrect souls into incorruptible permanent bodies to live on earth.

Accept John's witness or reject it. Change it into something it is not. Spiritualize it, and put personal opinions and private interpretations of recap as application of the text.

What you cannot do is remove those words from God's Word.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If you place the notion of a resurrection into the biblical text where it is not stated, that is your free will choice. I do not have to accept your insertion.

There is a resurrection in Revelation 20:4 immediately after the battle of Armageddon where Christ is physically on earth and just brought a climactic end to Adam's flesh and blood. All humanity is physically dead, and I would say spiritually dead, as all have been removed from the Lamb's book of life over the last 42 months.

The only thing left on earth is to restore it and resurrect souls into incorruptible permanent bodies to live on earth.

Accept John's witness or reject it. Change it into something it is not. Spiritualize it, and put personal opinions and private interpretations of recap as application of the text.

What you cannot do is remove those words from God's Word.

Address what I wrote and please stop avoiding.

Your chronological theory on Revelation falls apart in numerous ways. Let us look at one example: Revelation 10:1-3 says, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.
 
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Timtofly

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Address what I wrote and please stop avoiding.

Your chronological theory on Revelation falls apart in numerous ways. Let us look at one example: Revelation 10:1-3 says, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also refers to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious second coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Preterist, Pretribulationist or Historist positions.

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly and in context: chronos ouketi estai – literally meaning: Time – no longer – there shall be’!!!

The whole import and wording of the remainder of the passage perfectly supports the King James Version rendering and confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, which says, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be etelesthee (or) finished.” It should be noted that the word etelesthee is a very strong all-consummating word that is rightly translated ‘finished’ in this reading and is consistently interpreted: completed, concluded, expired and accomplished.

Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.

At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.
If you accept the finality of the 7th Trumpet, why can you not place the Second Coming prior to any of the Trumpets? You also ignore verse 4

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

Do you claim these Thunders never happen?

The 7th Trumpet is a week of days. It is Daniel 9:27.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Also if Satan gets 42 months still on earth, it is incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. As Daniel states the week is split in half until the end of the desolation. 42 months later, the 7th Trumpet stops. If the week is not split in half, the desolation is not allowed. The 7th Trumpet is still final. But the 7th millennium is still the Sabbath. 6 Days Adam was punished, but the 7th is separated and Holy unto God. There is a period of rule by the iron rod, that God promised to Abraham, David, and many prophets. The church is not the answer to this separation from sin. I have no argument the 7th Trumpet brings an end to Daniel 9.

"finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Now that all the punishment is over, God is going to enjoy His creation as intended, minus sin and Satan.
 
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sovereigngrace

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If you accept the finality of the 7th Trumpet, why can you not place the Second Coming prior to any of the Trumpets? You also ignore verse 4

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

Do you claim these Thunders never happen?

The 7th Trumpet is a week of days. It is Daniel 9:27.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Also if Satan gets 42 months still on earth, it is incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. As Daniel states the week is split in half until the end of the desolation. 42 months later, the 7th Trumpet stops. If the week is not split in half, the desolation is not allowed. The 7th Trumpet is still final. But the 7th millennium is still the Sabbath. 6 Days Adam was punished, but the 7th is separated and Holy unto God. There is a period of rule by the iron rod, that God promised to Abraham, David, and many prophets. The church is not the answer to this separation from sin. I have no argument the 7th Trumpet brings an end to Daniel 9.

"finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Now that all the punishment is over, God is going to enjoy His creation as intended, minus sin and Satan.

You are explaining away the text by your faulty view of Daniel 9 and your insistence on a chronological approach to Revelation. This is why you do not understand the climactic nature of the second coming.
 
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Timtofly

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You are explaining away the text by your faulty view of Daniel 9 and your insistence on a chronological approach to Revelation. This is why you do not understand the climactic nature of the second coming.
Every poster here explains away the text based on their biasis. That is putting the obvious out there.
 
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BABerean2

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1000 years does not make the forever reign of Christ any shorter. It does not make dead people any more dead or any less dead. It does not change a reward from being any thing else beside a reward.

It also does not put the Book of Revelation into chronological order.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:

(which prove the book is not in chronological order)


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.



The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".



.
 
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If you accept the finality of the 7th Trumpet, why can you not place the Second Coming prior to any of the Trumpets? You also ignore verse 4

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

Do you claim these Thunders never happen?

The 7th Trumpet is a week of days. It is Daniel 9:27.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Also if Satan gets 42 months still on earth, it is incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. As Daniel states the week is split in half until the end of the desolation. 42 months later, the 7th Trumpet stops. If the week is not split in half, the desolation is not allowed. The 7th Trumpet is still final. But the 7th millennium is still the Sabbath. 6 Days Adam was punished, but the 7th is separated and Holy unto God. There is a period of rule by the iron rod, that God promised to Abraham, David, and many prophets. The church is not the answer to this separation from sin. I have no argument the 7th Trumpet brings an end to Daniel 9.

"finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Now that all the punishment is over, God is going to enjoy His creation as intended, minus sin and Satan.

What are you claiming the seven thunders are?
 
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Timtofly

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What are you claiming the seven thunders are?
A reality. They deal with the Nations themselves. The tares and wheat. The end result of Jesus Christ on earth at the Second Coming. They sound between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 comes after the 6th Trumpet and is also the announcement of the 7th Trumpet. Chapters 11 and 12 relate to the events of the 7 Trumpet. The 6th Trumpet was finished and the 7 Thunders finished, so Revelation 11 is now describing the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.
 
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sovereigngrace

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A reality. They deal with the Nations themselves. The tares and wheat. The end result of Jesus Christ on earth at the Second Coming. They sound between the 6th and 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 comes after the 6th Trumpet and is also the announcement of the 7th Trumpet. Chapters 11 and 12 relate to the events of the 7 Trumpet. The 6th Trumpet was finished and the 7 Thunders finished, so Revelation 11 is now describing the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

But we are looking at recaps. That part is clear. It is impossible for there be time after time is no more.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Op note

After all this time, there is no real denial of the Op, just fleeting justifications for these questionable hermeneutics from Premils. This reinforces Amil concerns about the validity of this doctrine.
 
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Since 17 of them are just personal opinion, is there a reason that denying opinion is important?

Fleeting justification is what?

The Second Coming happens prior to a resurrection. A resurrection that amil refuse to place 1991 years ago. It happens after the Second Coming, and cannot be placed 1991 years ago. This resurrection happens prior to the Millennium, thus the millennium cannot start, until this resurrection happens. That is what Revelation 20:4 declares. No one can change God's Word. It does not matter if some change the length of a millennium to suit their opinion. A millennium will always be 1000 years.
 
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