Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Actually I was about to edit my post to say I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Sorry if I was not clear. All of the laws that God has given can be put into the categories of how to love God or how to love our neighbor. So if we love our neighbor as ourselves, then will help the poor and we won't commit theft, murder, kidnapping, rape, and so forth, so all of these laws make up what it means like to love our neighbor, so if someone is wants to obey that command, but what they are doing does not involve obedience to God's other laws, then they have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love our neighbor and they are not treating the command to love as being the fulfillment of the other commands.

So you want Christians to operate under Mosaic Law, correct?

Indeed, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he taught his followers to obey it both by word and by example and followers of Christ are those who see by faith to follow what Christ taught.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The forgiveness of sins is from water baptism then?

Guess God had it wrong:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (which John the water Baptist contrasted with his baptism) is belief whic is the forgiveness of sins. It is not a work but a gift from God.

Water baptism is a repentance from unbelief. Symbolically washing the body cannot wash away sin. So why the water baptism of repentance?

Do you think that John the Baptist got it wrong Mark 1:4?
 
Upvote 0

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
236
64
Southwest
✟56,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Do you think that John the Baptist got it wrong Mark 1:4?

So are you saying all people need do to be forgiven is get water baptized?
The cross of Christ has nothing to do with it? Is that what you mean?
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sorry if I was not clear. All of the laws that God has given can be put into the categories of how to love God or how to love our neighbor. So if we love our neighbor as ourselves, then will help the poor and we won't commit theft, murder, kidnapping, rape, and so forth, so all of these laws make up what it means like to love our neighbor, so if someone is wants to obey that command, but what they are doing does not involve obedience to God's other laws, then they have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love our neighbor and they are not treating the command to love as being the fulfillment of the other commands.



Indeed, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is. Furthermore, Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he taught his followers to obey it both by word and by example and followers of Christ are those who see by faith to follow what Christ taught.

That was before His resurrection and the establishment of the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is what we're under since after the resurrection. Jesus gave about 38 commandments for us to follow. Jesus said for us to follow His New Covenant Commandments.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
That was before His resurrection and the establishment of the New Covenant.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey it is itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is how we receive it. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to believe in what Jesus through his resurrection (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law.

The New Covenant is what we're under since after the resurrection. Jesus gave about 38 commandments for us to follow. He said to follow His New Covenant Commandments.

Jesus was sinless, so he would have still taught how to walk in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4). Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the same law (Hebrews 8:10). In John 12:44-50, Jesus did not give his followers any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he taught the same commandments as the Father. In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not give his own commandments in disagreement with what the Father has commanded, but rather everything that he taught was in accordance with the OT, and in fact there has never been someone else whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT.

In regard to John 13:34, there was nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor because it can be found in Leviticus 19:18, but what was new about Christ's command was the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality rather than with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

We should love ourselves as God loves us and that is how we should love our neighbor, so Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to the Mosaic Law, but rather he was fulfilling the Mosaic Law by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.

I'm guessing you think we need to work for and earn our salvation and keep our nose to the grindstone to maintain our salvation, and if we don't do a good enough job we'll wind up in hell, correct?

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for purposes other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their salvation because it is not something that can be earned (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of obeying it. In Jeremiah 6:16-19 and Matthew 11:28-30, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that our obedience is about needing to have a good enough job would rob our souls of the rest that it is intended to give.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
So are you saying all people need do to be forgiven is get water baptized?
The cross of Christ has nothing to do with it? Is that what you mean?

I believe that all of the Bible is true and relevant to how we should live our lives and that we should be quicker to throw out our interpretation of the Bible than to throw out verses that disagree with out interpretation. The faith that we have in the cross is the same faith that leads us to become water baptized.

Do you think that Jesus established the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching? If so, then why do you think that he spent his ministry teaching that?
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey it is itself part of the content of God's gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is how we receive it. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it means to believe in what Jesus through his resurrection (Acts 21:20). Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what it means to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Mosaic Law.
Jesus was sinless, so he would have still taught how to walk in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4). Jesus did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the same law (Hebrews 8:10). In John 12:44-50, Jesus did not give his followers any room to disregard anything that he taught during his ministry. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he taught the same commandments as the Father. In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate his commandments with those of the Father. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Jesus did not give his own commandments in disagreement with what the Father has commanded, but rather everything that he taught was in accordance with the OT, and in fact there has never been someone else whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT.

In regard to John 13:34, there was nothing brand new about the command to love our neighbor because it can be found in Leviticus 19:18, but what was new about Christ's command was the quality of the example by which we should love our neighbor, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness with respect to quality rather than with respect to time:

3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

We should love ourselves as God loves us and that is how we should love our neighbor, so Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to the Mosaic Law, but rather he was fulfilling the Mosaic Law by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for purposes other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their salvation because it is not something that can be earned (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of obeying it. In Jeremiah 6:16-19 and Matthew 11:28-30, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that our obedience is about needing to have a good enough job would rob our souls of the rest that it is intended to give.

This isn't mainstream orthodox Christian theology, so where does it come from? Is it
Messianic Judaism?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Okay, I'll have to study that some. But I'm probably going to stick with plain old orthodox Christianity.

Fair enough. Do you think that it is an orthodox view that the Psalms are Scripture and therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, which we should therefore share?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Fair enough. Do you think that it is an orthodox view that the Psalms are Scripture and therefore express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, which we should therefore share?

I've never heard anything about the Psalms expressing a correct view of Mosaic Law, so I can't answer that. The church I attended for several years where I used to live had a somewhat Messianic flavor to it, or so the pastor said. I believe he said he studied under Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is a leading expert in Messianic Judaic theology. But most of what he taught was the regular mainstream Christian theology I'm used to. More like Calvary Chapel where he was a Bible teacher before starting his own church. I'll probably give him a call and ask him to fill me in because I'm sure he probably knows a lot about it.

MMXX wrote: I'm guessing you think we need to work for and earn our salvation and keep our nose to the grindstone to maintain our salvation, and if we don't do a good enough job we'll wind up in hell, correct?

Obedience to the Mosaic Law can be done for purposes other than earning our salvation, especially because it was never given as a means of doing that. Even if someone managed to live in perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their salvation because it is not something that can be earned (Romans 4:4-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of obeying it. In Jeremiah 6:16-19 and Matthew 11:28-30, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but thinking that our obedience is about needing to have a good enough job would rob our souls of the rest that it is intended to give.

I deleted that because I realized it didn't fit. I've come across some who were totally into earning and maintaining salvation through works, so that was a knee-jerk reaction.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I've never heard anything about the Psalms expressing a correct view of Mosaic Law, so I can't answer that. The church I attended for several years where I used to live had a somewhat Messianic flavor to it, or so the pastor said. I believe he said he studied under Arnold Fruchtenbaum, who is a leading expert in Messianic Judaic theology. But most of what he taught was the regular mainstream Christian theology I'm used to. More like Calvary Chapel where he was a Bible teacher before starting his own church. I'll probably give him a call and ask him to fill me in because I'm sure he probably knows a lot about it.

The most quoted book of the Bible is the book of Psalms, and even Jesus quoted it a number of times, so I think that adds some validity to what it says being correct. Likewise, I think part of saying that the Psalms are is Scripture or divinely inspired is saying that what it says it correct. So my issue is that mainstream Christianity views the Psalms as Scripture, divinely inspired, and as something that we can quote from as prophecy or to support a theological position, yet the view that it expresses of the Mosaic Law is incompatible with how it is viewed by mainstream Christianity. I used to have a mainstream of the Mosaic Law until I reached the conclusion that I needed to change my view to match the view expressed in the Psalms if I was going to continue to believe that the Psalms are Scripture. For example:

Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.

We can't believe in the truth of these verses while not allowing them to shape our view of the Mosaic Law. David said repeatedly throughout the rest of the Psalms that he loved the Mosaic Law and delighted in obeying it, and Paul also delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), so he was on the same page as David, yet the way that mainstream Christianity interprets Paul imposes a negative view of the Mosaic Law onto him that is incompatible with the view expressed in the Psalms in spite of the fact that he considered the Psalms to be Scripture. So if you want, then read Psalms 19 or 119 and tell me whether you think that David's view of the Mosaic Law was correct. I tried interpreting the NT as through its authors were in complete agreement with the Psalms and found that it made much more sense and had much continuity than I had previously given it credit for.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The most quoted book of the Bible is the book of Psalms, and even Jesus quoted it a number of times, so I think that adds some validity to what it says being correct. Likewise, I think part of saying that the Psalms are is Scripture or divinely inspired is saying that what it says it correct. So my issue is that mainstream Christianity views the Psalms as Scripture, divinely inspired, and as something that we can quote from as prophecy or to support a theological position, yet the view that it expresses of the Mosaic Law is incompatible with how it is viewed by mainstream Christianity. I used to have a mainstream of the Mosaic Law until I reached the conclusion that I needed to change my view to match the view expressed in the Psalms if I was going to continue to believe that the Psalms are Scripture. For example:

Psalms 1:1-2 Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night.

We can't believe in the truth of these verses while not allowing them to shape our view of the Mosaic Law. David said repeatedly throughout the rest of the Psalms that he loved the Mosaic Law and delighted in obeying it, and Paul also delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:22), so he was on the same page as David, yet the way that mainstream Christianity interprets Paul imposes a negative view of the Mosaic Law onto him that is incompatible with the view expressed in the Psalms in spite of the fact that he considered the Psalms to be Scripture. So if you want, then read Psalms 19 or 119 and tell me whether you think that David's view of the Mosaic Law was correct. I tried interpreting the NT as through its authors were in complete agreement with the Psalms and found that it made much more sense and had much continuity than I had previously given it credit for.

I think if one wants to look at it honestly, one must take in all that the NT said about the Law. According to a word search I did, the Law is mentioned 25 times in Acts, about 100 times in the epistles of Paul, 14 times in Hebrews, 8 times in James and 1 time in 1 John. So it would be a matter of dividing how many times the NT said the Mosaic Law was for (gentile) Christians to follow and how many times the NT said it wasn't.

You picked out Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man", but lets look at the whole segment for context:

"Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." - NKJV

Jesus said the entire law can be summed up in love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. So if I apply that to the Psalms, I'm sure I'll have no disagreement in what they say about the law.

Now if I want to become a Seventh Day Adventist or a Messianic Jew, I'll have to view it through that lens. Otherwise I'll view it though the lens of the rest of Christianity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I think if one wants to look at it honestly, one must take in all that the NT said about the Law. According to a word search I did, the Law is mentioned 25 times in Acts, about 100 times in the epistles of Paul, 14 times in Hebrews, 8 times in James and 1 time in 1 John. So it would be a matter of dividing how many times the NT said the Mosaic Law was for (gentile) Christians to follow and how many times the NT said it wasn't.

The problem is that the NT often refers to categoreis of law other than the Mosaic Law, such as with the law of sin or works of the law, and people have mistaken what was only said against man-made laws as being against obeying God's law, as if the NT authors had the authority to countermand God.

You picked out Romans 7:22 "For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man", but lets look at the whole segment for context:

"Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
" - NKJV

How do you think the context influences how Romans 7:22 should be understood?

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said he delighted in obeying God's law and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. The law of sin is not so much an list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination that was causing Paul not to do the good of obeying God's law that he wanted to do (Romans 7:12-20). In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful, but that it is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, in Romans 7:5, the law of sin stirs up sinful passion in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, so it is the opposite of God's law. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from doing the good of obeying God's law should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as in Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

Jesus said the entire law can be summed up in love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. So if I apply that to the Psalms, I'm sure I'll have no disagreement in what they say about the law.

The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments to teach us what it means to obey them. All of the other commandments are examples of how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example obedience to the command to help the poor is part of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor. A sum is the total of all of its parts, so if someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not involve obedience to all of its parts, then they are not treating the greatest two commandments as being the sum of the other commandments. It is contradictory for someone to want to obey G od's command to love while wanting nothing to do with obeying His commands for how He wants us to love. What God was commanding the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments should not mean something different than what Jesus was instructing us to do when he quoted those commandments.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The problem is that the NT often refers to categoreis of law other than the Mosaic Law, such as with the law of sin or works of the law, and people have mistaken what was only said against man-made laws as being against obeying God's law, as if the NT authors had the authority to countermand God.



How do you think the context influences how Romans 7:22 should be understood?

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said he delighted in obeying God's law and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh. The law of sin is not so much an list of rules as it is a principle or an evil inclination that was causing Paul not to do the good of obeying God's law that he wanted to do (Romans 7:12-20). In Romans 7:7, it says that God's law is not sinful, but that it is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, in Romans 7:5, the law of sin stirs up sinful passion in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase, so it is the opposite of God's law. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from doing the good of obeying God's law should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as in Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.



The greatest two commandments are a lot easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us all of the other commandments to teach us what it means to obey them. All of the other commandments are examples of how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example obedience to the command to help the poor is part of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor. A sum is the total of all of its parts, so if someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not involve obedience to all of its parts, then they are not treating the greatest two commandments as being the sum of the other commandments. It is contradictory for someone to want to obey G od's command to love while wanting nothing to do with obeying His commands for how He wants us to love. What God was commanding the Israelites to do when He gave the greatest two commandments should not mean something different than what Jesus was instructing us to do when he quoted those commandments.

Show me where in Acts or Paul's epistles or Hebrews or the letters to the seven churches in Revelation where (gentile) Christians are being instructed to continue obeying the Law of Moses. And I don't mean a verse here and there like Romans 5:22, but some full passage giving full specific instructions on it. Or admonishments, like to the Corinthians for neglecting the Law of Moses. There should be at least one lengthy passage about it, similar your posts above. But I already know that no such passage exists.

"The Messianic Jewish movement emerged in the United States in the 1960s.[10][48] Prior to this time, Jewish converts assimilated into Gentile Christianity, as the church required abandoning their Jewishness and assuming Gentile ways to receive baptism." Messianic Judaism - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: pescador
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Show me where in Acts or Paul's epistles or Hebrews or the letters to the seven churches in Revelation where (gentile) Christians are being instructed to continue obeying the Law of Moses. And I don't mean a verse here and there like Romans 5:22, but some full passage giving full specific instructions on it. Or admonishments, like to the Corinthians for neglecting the Law of Moses. There should be at least one lengthy passage about it, similar your posts above. But I already know that no such passage exists.


The Mosaic Law was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so any of the many verse in the NT that is calling for Gentiles to repent from their sins is calling for Gentiles to obey it. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the Mosaic Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord.

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand

"The Messianic Jewish movement emerged in the United States in the 1960s.[10][48] Prior to this time, Jewish converts assimilated into Gentile Christianity, as the church required abandoning their Jewishness and assuming Gentile ways to receive baptism." Messianic Judaism - Wikipedia

Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different God, but rather he came to bring fulness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, which means that all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah, and that is the form of Christianity that I seek by faith to practice.
 
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,753
9,860
The Keep
✟571,602.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Mosaic Law was given to give us knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so any of the many verse in the NT that is calling for Gentiles to repent from their sins is calling for Gentiles to obey it. In Romans 10:4-10, Christ is the goal of the Mosaic Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. This faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what it means to confess that Jesus is Lord.



Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different God, but rather he came to bring fulness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith who were all zealous for the Torah, which means that all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10, so Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah, and that is the form of Christianity that I seek by faith to practice.

What you're writing comes from the perspective of Messianic Judiasm movement that got rolling about 60 years ago. To me getting into a debate about this is like getting into a debate with a Seventh Day Adventist regarding the SDA perspective. I can either dismiss the perspective of the rest of Christianity in favor of the Messianic Judaism perspective, or I can dismiss the Messianic Judaism perspective in favor of the perspective of the rest of Christianity. You're not going to talk me into converting to Messianic Judism in this thread. And I don't feel like getting into a miles long debate over the two perspectives.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
What you're writing comes from the perspective of Messianic Judiasm movement that got rolling about 60 years ago. To me getting into a debate about this is like getting into a debate with a Seventh Day Adventist regarding the SDA perspective. I can either dismiss the perspective of the rest of Christianity in favor of the Messianic Judaism perspective, or I can dismiss the Messianic Judaism perspective in favor of the perspective of the rest of Christianity. You're not going to talk me into converting to Messianic Judism in this thread. And I don't feel like getting into a miles long debate over the two perspectives.

Your concern should not about about whether it is popular, but about whether it is true, and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnD70X7

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
589
236
64
Southwest
✟56,014.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I believe that all of the Bible is true and relevant to how we should live our lives and that we should be quicker to throw out our interpretation of the Bible than to throw out verses that disagree with out interpretation. The faith that we have in the cross is the same faith that leads us to become water baptized.

Do you think that Jesus established the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching? If so, then why do you think that he spent his ministry teaching that?

The Old Covenant was in effect until Christ's death on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-17). Jesus lived and died under the Law of Moses. Hence his teachings like "if you do not forgive men, neither will your heavenly Father forgive you." As opposed to the the New Covenant teaching:

John 6:28–29 (AV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is rightly dividing the word of truth (the Bible).

Or Old Covenant teaching: "if your eyes cause you to sin gouge them out... better to enter life with one eye than hell with two...

as opposed to:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And the by faith only passages:

John 3:16-18 / John 16:26-27 / Romans 3:22 / Romans 4:11 / 2 Thessalonians 1:10 etc.

No works, no rites or rituals. No water baptisms. Only believe.
 
Upvote 0