No Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

LockeeDeck said:

Are you saying the black community cannot focus on two issues at once?

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Are you saying that the black community is focusing on 2 issues?

We know that hundreds of black people will be murdered by other black people in Chicago this year. Hundreds.

Can you tell me how many people of any race will be wrongly killed by Chicago police this year? No....you can't. You don't know the size or scope of the problem. You don't know the cause. You don't have any solutions.

Why would we spend so much time and effort focusing on a problem we literally know nothing about and so little time addressing the problem we know a lot about?

We know that hundreds of black people will die, in Chicago, and it's going to be black people killing them. Why not focus on that?

Aldebaran said:

In that one after the guy tried using the tazer, the rioters burned down the Wendy's whose parking lot it happened in. Some sort of "social justice", I'm sure.

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Well you know, Wendy being a white girl and all...

Ana the Ist said:

Has donating made any measurable difference in violence?

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Yup. They understand that statistically, the largest correlating factor to violence and crime is poverty, so they run a bunch of community outreach programs - mutual aid, food banks, clothing drives, school supply drives, etc, also temporary housing for victims of violence, counseling and group therapy - which we help maintain.

There are other ways to help such organizations. People can also volunteer their time. Or if they want to go deeper, they can advocate and vote for policies to alleviate the effects of systemic problems that helped put so many black Americans in poverty in the first place, like the decades of segregation that lasted well into the 1970s. Or they can do all these things.

Or they could just moralistically bloviate, and not actually do anything. That seems to be a really popular choice.

No Lives Matter is a much better song

Eight Foot Manchild said:

Yup. They understand that statistically, the largest correlating factor to violence and crime is poverty, so they run a bunch of community outreach programs - mutual aid, food banks, clothing drives, school supply drives, etc, also temporary housing for victims of violence, counseling and group therapy - which we help maintain.

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Do you think that holds up? Crime correlates directly with poverty?

There are other ways to help such organizations. People can also volunteer their time. Or if they want to go deeper, they can advocate and vote for policies to alleviate the effects of systemic problems that helped put so many black Americans in poverty in the first place, like the decades of segregation that lasted well into the 1970s. Or they can do all these things.

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Policies that ended in the 70s...ended in the 70s. That's 50 years ago.

Or they could just moralistically bloviate, and not actually do anything. That seems to be a really popular choice.

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Let's say that I am concerned about other issues. Things like childhood indoctrination in schools...our nation's propensity to get into wars....or any number of other social or economic issues...

There's nothing wrong with that, right? I shouldn't have to justify my concern with other issues...should I?

All the people who say "silence is violence" or "doing nothing makes you complicit" are wrong and unjustly attacking people....right? I don't have to care about the issues other people care about.....and they don't have to care about mine, do they?

Eight Foot Manchild said:

That's not the focus of BLM, and they're not obligated to make it the focus of the movement. There are dozens and dozens of other organizations, on local and national levels, that focus on violence in black communities.

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And how does those groups measure up to BLM when it comes to media coverage, funds raised, corporate support, or political power? Its like BLM has become so powerful they are soaking up all the air in the room and everything else gets overlooked because all of the attention is on them, and what they're fighting for. As I said before, when it comes to the black community it’s like we spend 95% of our effort on 5% of the problem, and 5% of our effort on 95% of the problem, and the success of BLM is not helping by garnering even more attention to the 5% of the problem. It’s like having a leaky faucet in the bathroom, and a fire in the kitchen and BLM is directing all the attention to what’s going on in the bathroom while the house burns down.

Ana the Ist said:

Do you think that holds up? Crime correlates directly with poverty?

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"Directly", as in 1 to 1? No, of course not.

Ana the Ist said:

Policies that ended in the 70s...ended in the 70s. That's 50 years ago.

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Was this a complete thought? Did you mean to make some kind of point after this, or were you just demonstrating that you can do basic math?

Ana the Ist said:

Let's say that I am concerned about other issues.

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Ah, I see. So you're squarely in the moralistically bloviating camp when it comes to this issue. Enjoy your big fat nothingburger, I guess.

Ken-1122 said:

And how does those groups measure up to BLM when it comes to media coverage, funds raised, corporate support, or political power?

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In the grand scheme? BLM is barely a blip on the radar. Community outreach orgs have been around since...well, since communities. Criminal justice reform is a hot button issue at the moment, so at this particular time BLM has a larger media presence.

To the point though - and I'm still flabbergasted at how often I have to explain this - movements are allowed to focus on different issues. BLM's is criminal justice reform. There are plenty of others that focus on violence within black communities.

And again, if you don't actually care, why even say anything at all? Just enjoy your sense of moral superiority in silence.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

"Directly", as in 1 to 1? No, of course not.

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Ok....because about 6.5 billion people live in far poorer conditions than in the US and they don't deal with the levels of violent crime we do.

All of El Salvador is safer than east St. Louis....in regards to murder anyway.

Was this a complete thought? Did you mean to make some kind of point after this, or were you just demonstrating that you can do basic math?

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Sorry...thought the point was obvious.

You think policies can address things like segregation that happened 50 years ago. There was a pandemic that happened last year.

How would you be able to how much of a person's circumstances was because of segregation 50 years ago or because of the pandemic last year?....or you know, literally everything that happened in the past 50 years?

Ah, I see. So you're squarely in the moralistically bloviating camp when it comes to this issue. Enjoy your big fat nothingburger, I guess.

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I see you decided to dodge instead of answering.

Obviously you see nothing wrong with attacking people for not supporting your cause. You should expect those people to point out all the reasons why your cause is dumb or pointless. There's no reason why they should accept the constant attacks on their character.

Ana the Ist said:

Ok....because about 6.5 billion people live in far poorer conditions than in the US and they don't deal with the levels of violent crime we do.

All of El Salvador is safer than east St. Louis....in regards to murder anyway.




Sorry...thought the point was obvious.

You think policies can address things like segregation that happened 50 years ago. There was a pandemic that happened last year.

How would you be able to how much of a person's circumstances was because of segregation 50 years ago or because of the pandemic last year?....or you know, literally everything that happened in the past 50 years?






I see you decided to dodge instead of answering.

Obviously you see nothing wrong with attacking people for not supporting your cause. You should expect those people to point out all the reasons why your cause is dumb or pointless. There's no reason why they should accept the constant attacks on their character.

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You just said you're not concerned with this issue. Why on earth would I waste another second talking to you?

For anyone reading along who does care about this issue, if you're on Audible, DM me. I will send you the audiobook of The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein, about the history of segregation in the US, and its lasting effects - to this day - on black Americans.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

You just said you're not concerned with this issue. Why on earth would I waste another second talking to you?

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I'd much prefer that you not bother me or anyone else who simply doesn't care about your personal problems.

I promise that the moment you and other activists for your problems stop blaming anyone who doesn't care about your problems....you won't hear another word from me.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

To the point though - and I'm still flabbergasted at how often I have to explain this - movements are allowed to focus on different issues. BLM's is criminal justice reform. There are plenty of others that focus on violence within black communities.

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I have no problem fighting for Criminal justice reform where it is needed, but as I said many times before, you don't have to join a racist organization like BLM to fight for criminal justice reform. Also I have problems with how they fight for criminal justice reform.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

You just said you're not concerned with this issue. Why on earth would I waste another second talking to you?

For anyone reading along who does care about this issue, if you're on Audible, DM me. I will send you the audiobook of The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein, about the history of segregation in the US, and its lasting effects - to this day - on black Americans.

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You must have missed the note: progressives are now saying segregation is a good thing. That's why in California they tried to roll back civil rights protections that prohibit it. It was a ballot initiative in the last election called Proposition 16.

KarateCowboy said:

You must have missed the note: progressives are now saying segregation is a good thing. That's why in California they tried to roll back civil rights protections that prohibit it. It was a ballot initiative in the last election called Proposition 16.

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Affirmative action isn't the same as segregation, and it's mostly irrelevant to the subject of The Color of Law, but thanks for that useless tidbit. Go feel like you scored a point, I guess.

Ken-1122 said:

As I said many times before, you don't have to join a racist organization like BLM to fight for criminal justice reform. Also I have problems with how they fight for criminal justice reform.

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BLM isn't a racist movement, but otherwise you are correct. It's completely irrelevant to what we were just talking about, but you can, in fact, do that.

Eight Foot Manchild said:

Affirmative action isn't the same as segregation, and it's mostly irrelevant to the subject of The Color of Law, but thanks for that useless tidbit. Go feel like you scored a point, I guess.

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Affirmative action is a dog whistle for racism we approve of, and the state goal of the activists was to allow for the creation of "colored spaces" at state universities where they could segregate by race.

Nevertheless, neo-segregation is a thing. I've seen progressives defend it here on CF.

Otherwise, maybe you could elaborate how segregation isn't relative to a book about segregation?

If "all lives matter" society needs to be especially vigilant when that principle is violated

rambot said:

Listening acknowledging, believing is a start.

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That doesn't answer the question. Allow me to rephrase: What is the source of life's value?

Pommer said:

See post #140

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I'm not sure which part of #140 you mean. If it was Trayvon Martin, that reinforces what I wrote. Trayvon Martin's death did not have to do with race - Zimmerman shot him because Martin was sitting on his chest smashing his head into the ground because Zimmerman (the neighborhood watch in a neighborhood which had experienced 11 break-ins and one shooting during the previous year) asked him what he was doing.

If it is because black males get shot by the police disproportionately, it's because black males commit a disproportionate amount of crime. Blacks have more interactions, including negative interactions, with the police because blacks tend to live in black neighborhoods, which also tend to be poorer neighborhoods, and higher crime neighborhoods.

Police don't bust black men because of racism. Police bust criminals (for the most part) and a disproportionate amount of criminals are black.

Regards,
Shodan

Aldebaran said:

Those who chant the slogan obviously agree with those who coined it. Words matter, don't they?

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They agree with them on the meaning behind the slogan. Not necessarily every other thought and opinion those people have ever had in their entire lives.