Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

Davy

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So then what is Paul talking about in Romans 7:14-24?

Paul is recounting of his experience as Saul when he was under the false Pharisee religion that made salvation primarily about Works Alone or Law Alone via by the keeping of the 613 Laws of Moses. Christians today are not under the whole of the 613 laws of Mosees given to Israel. Neither are Christians saved by Law Alone Salvationism, either. Paul recounted in how he tried to keep the Old Law and he could not do it on his own when he was a Pharisee. But Christ was able to deliver him from the Old Law and to keep the righteous aspect or part of the Old Law instead. Paul says in Romans 13:8-10, that he that loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law (i.e. the Old Law). In Romans 8:4 Paul says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4). When we walk after the Spirit we will have the fruits of love, joy, peace, etc. (See: Galatians 5:22). For Paul says if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See: Galatians 5:16).

Paul in Romans 7:13-25 is pointing out two different dimensions being governed by two different sets of law. He is definite when speaking of the flesh vs. spirit as two separate operations, just like how Lord Jesus proclaimed in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Rom 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

The law that is spiritual is about the "law of God after the inward man". But Paul is going to define another law here governing sin in our flesh.



17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


He is talking about sin dwelling in his flesh, not in his 'inner man'. Later Bible versions really mess translation of this up with confusion of a 'sin nature', when the KJV doesn't. Paul points sin directly to the flesh. Later Bible translations that try to get away from pointing to the flesh being under sin do so to serve those who think Christ's Salvation is to a new flesh body, which certainly is not so per God's Word. That's one of the reasons they don't like this KJV translation.



19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Apostle Paul, a chosen vessel by our Lord Jesus Christ to take The Gospel especially to the Gentiles, admitted that oft when he tried not to sin, he found himself sinning. He admitted that he was also under a law that dwelt in his fleshy members.



22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

There he recounts "the law of God after the inward man", as the spiritual side us.


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


There again Paul repeats that sin in his flesh wars against his inner man, showing how our spirit/soul inside our flesh wars with it causing us to sin.



24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

By that Paul is admitting that he, the real part, the inner man, will continue to serve the law of God, but his flesh will continue in the law of sin, for our flesh is sold under sin, and is destined to perish with this present world. It is NOT our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus; it is our spirit with soul that is saved.

This is why the type body of the resurrection which Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is to a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the body of that other dimension which is of the world to come.
 
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Davy

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It's not really about me. But it's about what the Bible says. It does not matter whether or not I have or not. My life is not the standard of the faith. The Bible is the standard of the faith. Only God can truly judge each believer's life and the hidden things that they are not aware of yet, and I believe many believers have to put away grievous sin out of their lives in the Sanctification Process.

Oh yes it is about you too, and whether you're claiming to not have sin anymore or not. Me, I know I'm still a sinner, even after having believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized. I know I mess up at times and need to repent to Him like John showed in 1 John 1. Not hard at all for me to admit that.

So why can't you admit it too, if you believe that you can still sin? It's not a shameful thing to admit that we are not perfect like Lord Jesus Who had no sin, but that we can only be 'counted' perfect through Him.
 
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Oh yes it is about you too, and whether you're claiming to not have sin anymore or not. Me, I know I'm still a sinner, even after having believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized. I know I mess up at times and need to repent to Him like John showed in 1 John 1. Not hard at all for me to admit that.

So why can't you admit it too, if you believe that you can still sin? It's not a shameful thing to admit that we are not perfect like Lord Jesus Who had no sin, but that we can only be 'counted' perfect through Him.

This may be semantics to you but you are not a sinner. If you have believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized then you are in Christ; you are part of His body. There is no sin in Him, so there is no sin in you. Though you may sin while in this mortal body, that doesn't mean that you are a sinner, any more than if I have a glass of wine I am an alcoholic.

As I have written many times, 1 John 1 was written to those who don't know Christ. You don't write this to Christians: "This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life—and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). 1 John 1:1-3
 
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Davy

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This may be semantics to you but you are not a sinner. If you have believed on Jesus Christ and been baptized then you are in Christ; you are part of His body. There is no sin in Him, so there is no sin in you. Though you may sin while in this mortal body, that doesn't mean that you are a sinner, any more than if I have a glass of wine I am an alcoholic.

As I have written many times, 1 John 1 was written to those who don't know Christ. You don't write this to Christians: "This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life—and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). 1 John 1:1-3

You've been wrongly taught on 1 John 1, it is for Christian believers, not the unsaved. Like Paul showed in Romans 7, even while in Christ Jesus we seek to follow the law of God of the inner man, but our flesh will follow the law of sin in its members. We cannot... become our own Christ, ever, not even in the world to come. We will always fall short of the glory of God, and to not admit that we still slip up at times is similar to claiming we are our own Christ. Not possible.
 
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You've been wrongly taught on 1 John 1, it is for Christian believers, not the unsaved. Like Paul showed in Romans 7, even while in Christ Jesus we seek to follow the law of God of the inner man, but our flesh will follow the law of sin in its members. We cannot... become our own Christ, ever, not even in the world to come. We will always fall short of the glory of God, and to not admit that we still slip up at times is similar to claiming we are our own Christ. Not possible.

I could just as easily write that you have been wrongly taught on 1 John 1 but I already stated my thoughts on the matter. Here is 1 John 1 (with my emphases)...

This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us. [Nobody would announce this to believers!] What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, [Again, nobody would announce this to believers!] so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). [And again, nobody would invite believers to have fellowship with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ!] Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. [Again, nobody would announce this to believers!] If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth. [Doctrinal teaching about Christianity begins here] But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

If you read John's letter carefully, prayerfully, in context, you will see that John would not insult believers by inviting them to have fellowship with Christians who know the truth. He announced the truth to them! How would you feel, Davy, if I announced the truth in Christ to you so that you could have fellowship with me?
 
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You've been wrongly taught on 1 John 1, it is for Christian believers, not the unsaved. Like Paul showed in Romans 7, even while in Christ Jesus we seek to follow the law of God of the inner man, but our flesh will follow the law of sin in its members. We cannot... become our own Christ, ever, not even in the world to come. We will always fall short of the glory of God, and to not admit that we still slip up at times is similar to claiming we are our own Christ. Not possible.

You've been wrongly taught on 1 John 1, it is for the unsaved, not for Christian believers. I am not going to continue this debate. What the Bible says it says; it is up to us to interpret it correctly. 1 John 1:3, "What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ)." Nobody would write this to Christians!
 
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Paul in Romans 7:13-25 is pointing out two different dimensions being governed by two different sets of law. He is definite when speaking of the flesh vs. spirit as two separate operations, just like how Lord Jesus proclaimed in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Rom 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

The law that is spiritual is about the "law of God after the inward man". But Paul is going to define another law here governing sin in our flesh.



17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


He is talking about sin dwelling in his flesh, not in his 'inner man'. Later Bible versions really mess translation of this up with confusion of a 'sin nature', when the KJV doesn't. Paul points sin directly to the flesh. Later Bible translations that try to get away from pointing to the flesh being under sin do so to serve those who think Christ's Salvation is to a new flesh body, which certainly is not so per God's Word. That's one of the reasons they don't like this KJV translation.



19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Apostle Paul, a chosen vessel by our Lord Jesus Christ to take The Gospel especially to the Gentiles, admitted that oft when he tried not to sin, he found himself sinning. He admitted that he was also under a law that dwelt in his fleshy members.



22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

There he recounts "the law of God after the inward man", as the spiritual side us.


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


There again Paul repeats that sin in his flesh wars against his inner man, showing how our spirit/soul inside our flesh wars with it causing us to sin.



24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

By that Paul is admitting that he, the real part, the inner man, will continue to serve the law of God, but his flesh will continue in the law of sin, for our flesh is sold under sin, and is destined to perish with this present world. It is NOT our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus; it is our spirit with soul that is saved.

This is why the type body of the resurrection which Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is to a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the body of that other dimension which is of the world to come.

Paul would be a hypocrite for telling people to cleanse themselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God in 2 Corinthians 7:1 if your interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 is true. The context of Romans 7:14-24 is dealing with the OLD Law (the 613) that is no longer binding under the New Covenant. Paul spoke in this way because certain Gentile Christians were trying to go back to the Old Law via by thinking they had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses (the 613) in order to be saved. So you are reading Romans 7:14-24 out of context in order to justify a sin and still be saved type belief in the Bible that does not exist.
 
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Paul in Romans 7:13-25 is pointing out two different dimensions being governed by two different sets of law. He is definite when speaking of the flesh vs. spirit as two separate operations, just like how Lord Jesus proclaimed in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Rom 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

The law that is spiritual is about the "law of God after the inward man". But Paul is going to define another law here governing sin in our flesh.



17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


He is talking about sin dwelling in his flesh, not in his 'inner man'. Later Bible versions really mess translation of this up with confusion of a 'sin nature', when the KJV doesn't. Paul points sin directly to the flesh. Later Bible translations that try to get away from pointing to the flesh being under sin do so to serve those who think Christ's Salvation is to a new flesh body, which certainly is not so per God's Word. That's one of the reasons they don't like this KJV translation.



19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Apostle Paul, a chosen vessel by our Lord Jesus Christ to take The Gospel especially to the Gentiles, admitted that oft when he tried not to sin, he found himself sinning. He admitted that he was also under a law that dwelt in his fleshy members.



22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

There he recounts "the law of God after the inward man", as the spiritual side us.


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


There again Paul repeats that sin in his flesh wars against his inner man, showing how our spirit/soul inside our flesh wars with it causing us to sin.



24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

By that Paul is admitting that he, the real part, the inner man, will continue to serve the law of God, but his flesh will continue in the law of sin, for our flesh is sold under sin, and is destined to perish with this present world. It is NOT our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus; it is our spirit with soul that is saved.

This is why the type body of the resurrection which Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is to a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the body of that other dimension which is of the world to come.

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."
 
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Paul in Romans 7:13-25 is pointing out two different dimensions being governed by two different sets of law. He is definite when speaking of the flesh vs. spirit as two separate operations, just like how Lord Jesus proclaimed in John 3 to Nicodemus.

Rom 7:13-25
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

The law that is spiritual is about the "law of God after the inward man". But Paul is going to define another law here governing sin in our flesh.



17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


He is talking about sin dwelling in his flesh, not in his 'inner man'. Later Bible versions really mess translation of this up with confusion of a 'sin nature', when the KJV doesn't. Paul points sin directly to the flesh. Later Bible translations that try to get away from pointing to the flesh being under sin do so to serve those who think Christ's Salvation is to a new flesh body, which certainly is not so per God's Word. That's one of the reasons they don't like this KJV translation.



19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Apostle Paul, a chosen vessel by our Lord Jesus Christ to take The Gospel especially to the Gentiles, admitted that oft when he tried not to sin, he found himself sinning. He admitted that he was also under a law that dwelt in his fleshy members.



22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

There he recounts "the law of God after the inward man", as the spiritual side us.


23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.


There again Paul repeats that sin in his flesh wars against his inner man, showing how our spirit/soul inside our flesh wars with it causing us to sin.



24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJV

By that Paul is admitting that he, the real part, the inner man, will continue to serve the law of God, but his flesh will continue in the law of sin, for our flesh is sold under sin, and is destined to perish with this present world. It is NOT our flesh that is saved by Lord Jesus; it is our spirit with soul that is saved.

This is why the type body of the resurrection which Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15 is to a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption, the body of that other dimension which is of the world to come.

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
http://www.thegoodbookblog.com/2012/apr/27/paul-is-not-talking-about-himself-why-i-take-the-p/
 
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Davy

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You've been wrongly taught on 1 John 1, it is for the unsaved, not for Christian believers. I am not going to continue this debate. What the Bible says it says; it is up to us to interpret it correctly. 1 John 1:3, "What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ)." Nobody would write this to Christians!

I'm not going to continue this debate either. 1 John 1 is for Christians. We still need to repent to Jesus for future sins.
 
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pescador

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I'm not going to continue this debate either. 1 John 1 is for Christians. We still need to repent to Jesus for future sins.

You are still in error. If you think that Jesus' sacrifice isn't sufficient and that you must tell people who are already Christians that they must discover Jesus, go ahead. But you're wrong.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I'm not going to continue this debate either. 1 John 1 is for Christians. We still need to repent to Jesus for future sins.

Sounds like a different type of limited atonement.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Those on man's doctrine 'once saved, always saved' would naturally think that; they aren't programmed to understand anything else.

We all follow some sort man-made doctrine. Especially those who made up one for themselves.
 
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Soyeong

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That's all that really needs to be said about obeying the law then.

Also those who emphasize obedience usually add the disclaimer that total obedience is humanly impossible, so we really only need to have the desire to obey.

And then of course that desire is placed in us by the Holy Spirit. And that is an ongoing process that takes shape over time.

All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor is an example of what it looks like to love our neighbor, so love fulfills the law because that is what it is essentially about how to do. If someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to helping the poor or God's other commands, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of the other commands.

The whole point of the Old Covenant and Old Testament is that it lays out the coming of Jesus Christ to set things right. It started with Adam and ended with Jesus.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is what it looks like to believe in what Jesus accomplished on the cross (Acts 21:20), so it is not just about restoring us to like how we were before we had sinned, but also making us to be like Christ, who lived in obedience to God's law.

Do leagalists ever find any joy in their salvation, or is it just a constant battle stay saved for them?

That depends on what you mean by a legalist. If God was a legalist for giving the Mosaic Law and Jesus was a legalist for living sinless obedience to it and for teaching how to obey it by word and by example, then being a legalist would be being in good company, but that is not what I think legalism refers to.

If the Psalms are Scripture, then they express a correct view of the Mosaic Law, which means that we either need to share the view that it expresses or reject that the Psalms are Scripture. David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved the Mosaic Law and delighted in obeying it, and Paul also delighted in obeying it (Romans 7:12), so that is the correct view. In Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those...who delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. So finding joy in our salvation is the correct view of God's law.

Is there ever how much Jesus loves us in the message of the legalist? Or are they afraid that would take away fear and cause Christians to think it's okay to "live like the devil"?

Everything in the law is about love.

I'll go with Matthew Henry's commentary on Acts 3:22-26:

"Here is a powerful address to warn the Jews of the dreadful consequences of their unbelief, in the very words of Moses, their favourite prophet, out of pretended zeal for whom they were ready to reject Christianity, and to try to destroy it. Christ came into the world to bring a blessing with him. And he sent his Spirit to be the great blessing. Christ came to bless us, by turning us from our iniquities, and saving us from our sins."

In my experience if you see doom and not love to Christians, you're reading it wrong. Like it or not Jesus operates on love for His Body, not condemnation. And we are better at obeying Him out of love, joy and gratitude, than out of fear of being zapped.

The Mosaic Law is how we know what iniquity is, so the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham that through his seed all of the nations would be blessed is by teaching the nations to turn from our disobedience to the Mosaic Law.

I'm more interested in things being as God wishes them to be. There are definitely consequences for sin committed by a born again Christian. But I don't see condemnation as being one. And as I said to someone else, I don't see justification as a treading water sink or swim operation. It takes away from the finished work of Christ.

In Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19, the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, so if that is not how someone views the law, then their view in wrong.

I know you're battling the idea that there are all these Christians who think it's okay to "live like the devil and still be saved". But in my opinion those who are like that are going to be the last ones to listen to legalism. The ones who listen to it are the ones who are growing and don't need to be motivated by legalism. But they're still tender enough to become convinced that they have to save themselves by way of works. And what's supposed to be a labor of love, becomes just labor. Grinding for salvation.

There can be reasons for obeying the Mosaic Law other than trying to earn our salvation, so verses that speak against doing that should not be mistaken as being against our salvation requiring our obedience for some other reason, such as faith. Only those who have faith will obey the Mosaic Law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the Mosaic Law will be justified while denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification is something that can be earned.
 
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Ceallaigh

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If someone's obedience to the command to love does not look like obedience to helping the poor or God's other commands, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of the other commands.

Is that what it's all supposed to be about? How things look? Keeping up appearances? That's not what holiness is about.
 
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Soyeong

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Nope. ...from unbelief in him. From the Old Covenant Law to the New Covenant Grace BY that belief in him. Mark 1:15 (AV) 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Acts 3:19 (AV) 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; Sinner repent! ← is from an old Star Trek original TV series script: "The Naked Time."

Mark 1:4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15:7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Luke 17:3-4 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Luke 24:46-47 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance for[c] the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

Acts 5:31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

2 Corinthians 12:21 I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.
---------

The Bible treats belief in Christ as being synonymous with obedience and unbelief as being synonymous with disobedience. For example, in John 3:36, believing in Jesus is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law, and in Romans 14:23, whatever is not of faith is sin. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Covenant is also a covenant of grace, while in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so it is also a covenant of law.
 
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Soyeong

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Is that what it's all supposed to be about? How things look? Keeping up appearances? That's not what holiness is about.

I did not say it was about keeping up appearances. Christ was righteous and holy, so if someone who had observed the way that he behaved, then he would be seeing what it looks like to be righteous and holy, so that does not imply that he was just keeping up appearances. If that person had recorded patters in his behavior, then that would essentially be the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law also describes what it looks like when God has made us righteous and holy. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions how to do that, so those instructions describe what holiness looks like.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I did not say it was about keeping up appearances.

Actually I was about to edit my post to say I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Christ was righteous and holy, so if someone who had observed the way that he behaved would be seeing what it looks like to be righteous and holy, so that does not imply that he was just keeping up appearances. If that person had recorded patters in his behavior, then that would essentially be the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law also describes what it looks like when God has made us righteous and holy. For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions how to do that, so those instructions describe what holiness looks like.

So you want Christians to operate under Mosaic Law, correct?
 
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The forgiveness of sins is from water baptism then?

Guess God had it wrong:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit (which John the water Baptist contrasted with his baptism) is belief whic is the forgiveness of sins. It is not a work but a gift from God.

Water baptism is a repentance from unbelief. Symbolically washing the body cannot wash away sin. So why the water baptism of repentance?
 
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