Is Christianity an umbrella religion?

fhansen

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It seems to me that God is after a different kind of unity than we are.
I suppose we could read our present situation in that way. But, then again, how much disagreement is acceptable? How far back do we draw the line in order to allow more people to be included on our side? Where does tolerance really become compromise of truth and not necessarily compatible with love either? I guess those are all answers we must try to resolve for ourselves.
 
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Clare73

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Ah, but the twain do meet. Justification and sanctification are inseparable, part and parcel of the same thing.
They are the Christian life, but they are not the same thing.

Review what I presented.
 
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John Mullally

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This makes salvation mainly about forgiveness only for those who believe and renders any righteousness that we may or may not have, IOW the love that we have for God and neighbor, a secondary issue. Faith sort of trumps all in this theology whereas Augustine said, “Without love faith may indeed exist but avails nothing”.
Not to diminish Love, but I have always considered Faith to at be the starting point in our Christian walk (where through diligence Faith and Love are intended to continue to grow).

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.​
 
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fhansen

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We're talking about private interpretation of Scripture today.
Yes, we are. And we can decide that we're guided by the Holy Spirit in our interpretations while many others claim the same and end up with very different interpretations. That doesn't mean that we aren't Spirit-led, or that they necessarily are or vice versa. It just indicates to me that we need more-from the Christian legacy- in order to fully understand the gospel.
 
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fhansen

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Not to diminish Love, but I have always considered Faith to at be the starting point in our Christian walk (where Faith and Love are intended to continue to grow).
Yes, for its part the Catholic Church teaches that it's the starting point, "the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification...", as the Council of Trent put it. Because faith places us into relationship with God, and this communion, itself, is the basis of our justice or righteousness.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Here's the ending point according to the Church, quoting a 16th century believer in this case.
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 
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fhansen

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Show this from Scripture. I agree with the first sentence and I agree with the fact that he wants us to choose, and that he draws and solicits our choice. But the logic you show does not follow, for me. The one fact does not imply the other --where does Scripture say something like, "the point where he stops is...."
I'll put it this way, if your view was right He would've stopped inspiring Scripture just before the word "In", the first word of Genesis. Because there'd be no reason.

In my last post to you, #73, I included Rev 3:20, which begins with,
"If anyone..."
And there are other such "if" verses, such as Matt 16:24, Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

IMO you take 'if you will' verses and turn them into 'you will' verses. But from my perspective, from the human perspective, what I really know is that I must persist, I must strive, be vigilant, refrain from sin, do good, persevere, etc as Scripture warns, admonishes, encourages, and instructs. And I can't even know with 100% perfect certainty to begin with if I'm a member of the elect or not. So I don't shrug my shoulders and say, "No problem, I'm guaranteed to do those things anyway." Rather, I simply try to do what I'm told-and I may fail.
 
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GenemZ

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I came across this observation by @Cormack that I thought sheds a lot of light on why Christianity in practice is as diverse as it is. I find it a very plausible explanation as to why there are so many wildly different denominations. Here's his comment:

"Here’s an idea about Hinduism that helped me better understand Christianity and Gods goodness. I read Hinduism isn’t really a religion, but rather it’s like an umbrella term for the many different types of religious belief found on the subcontinent of India.

This made sense, lots of the Hindus I knew varied in beliefs. Some were pantheists, others polytheists, a few even proudly claimed that Hinduism was the first monotheistic faith. They all disagreed but the point is that “Hinduism” actually houses a diversity of religious views from across the Indian subcontinent.

The modern day situation with both Christianity and the Bible isn’t much different, and like some kind of kooky boarding house lots of people are lodging here with their own ideas about the character of God."

While the accepted denominations all adhere to the Nicene creed and this is regarded as a unifying factor, what real meaning does this have when the churches hold such widely different views on such fundamental questions as Did Christ die for all or only for some? Is it possible to lose salvation having gained it? Do works matter? Do we have free will? Or are the denominations so different that it makes more sense to see them as expressions of effectively different religious beliefs loosely contained under the umbrella of Christianity?
Christianity is not an umbrella "religion."

Its a Vine with many dead branches that have been cut off.

Denomination city:

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather
around them
a great number of teachers to say what their
itching ears want to hear."
2 Tim 4:3​


That is exactly why we have so many denominations today. Sound doctrinal teaching which they will shun requires of the believer a constant growth, and correction when need be, in order to grow spiritually in Jesus Christ.

He is the Vine. We are the branches.

Those believers who form into "religious clans" (denominations) ceased being correctable. Instead, they bond on a tribal level and devise their own defenses to protect their cherished raised banner of dogma. Its become a "pride thing" as their branch begins to dehydrate only to later become wood for the fire.

That "fire" is not to be confused with the Lake of Fire. For, every believer (who will remain saved) will be evaluated by the Lord's fire. The works that were done in the spirit of religiosity will be burned up. Loss of rewards. But, even though rewards will be forfeited, that person will remain saved. This evaluation by fire is not about the Lake of Fire!


For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already
laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation
using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their
work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it
to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the
quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives,
the builder will receive a reward.
If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as
one escaping through the flames."
1 Cor 3:11-15​


grace and peace.......
 
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fhansen

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The righteousness of justification is about being declared "not guilty," given right standing with God's justice, condemnation for sin paid for, and the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed (credited), as it was to Abraham (Genesis 15:6), and all through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing (reconciliation) with God.

The righteousness of sanctification is about the Christian life and growth in holiness, which is were love and good works come in, which are not involved in the righteousness of justification.

"And never the twain shall meet," the righteousness of justification apart from works and the righteousness of sanctification through obedience (works) must never be mixed.

Anathema! (Galatians 1:9)
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. Rom 6:22

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:7

It's a relationship thing, instituted by God, where both partners do their respective parts.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I came across this observation by @Cormack that I thought sheds a lot of light on why Christianity in practice is as diverse as it is. I find it a very plausible explanation as to why there are so many wildly different denominations. Here's his comment:

"Here’s an idea about Hinduism that helped me better understand Christianity and Gods goodness. I read Hinduism isn’t really a religion, but rather it’s like an umbrella term for the many different types of religious belief found on the subcontinent of India.

This made sense, lots of the Hindus I knew varied in beliefs. Some were pantheists, others polytheists, a few even proudly claimed that Hinduism was the first monotheistic faith. They all disagreed but the point is that “Hinduism” actually houses a diversity of religious views from across the Indian subcontinent.

The modern day situation with both Christianity and the Bible isn’t much different, and like some kind of kooky boarding house lots of people are lodging here with their own ideas about the character of God."

While the accepted denominations all adhere to the Nicene creed and this is regarded as a unifying factor, what real meaning does this have when the churches hold such widely different views on such fundamental questions as Did Christ die for all or only for some? Is it possible to lose salvation having gained it? Do works matter? Do we have free will? Or are the denominations so different that it makes more sense to see them as expressions of effectively different religious beliefs loosely contained under the umbrella of Christianity?
The Catholic Catechism says something like that.
CCC - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."
 
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Eftsoon

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Any school of thought is an 'umbrella'. There are no systems of thought in which all the adherents think precisely the same thing.The difference is only in the degree of diversity. Islam has a far narrower range than Hinduism. There is far more conformity with the SDA than the evangelical church.
I think it's interesting that these 'umbrella faiths' transcend religious status. They are political and cultural systems as much as anything.

While Christianity is in a state of division, this is not God's will. The image we have been given is of a single body with all believers thinking with the mind of Christ.
 
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I came across this observation by @Cormack that I thought sheds a lot of light on why Christianity in practice is as diverse as it is. I find it a very plausible explanation as to why there are so many wildly different denominations. Here's his comment:

"Here’s an idea about Hinduism that helped me better understand Christianity and Gods goodness. I read Hinduism isn’t really a religion, but rather it’s like an umbrella term for the many different types of religious belief found on the subcontinent of India.

This made sense, lots of the Hindus I knew varied in beliefs. Some were pantheists, others polytheists, a few even proudly claimed that Hinduism was the first monotheistic faith. They all disagreed but the point is that “Hinduism” actually houses a diversity of religious views from across the Indian subcontinent.

The modern day situation with both Christianity and the Bible isn’t much different, and like some kind of kooky boarding house lots of people are lodging here with their own ideas about the character of God."

While the accepted denominations all adhere to the Nicene creed and this is regarded as a unifying factor, what real meaning does this have when the churches hold such widely different views on such fundamental questions as Did Christ die for all or only for some? Is it possible to lose salvation having gained it? Do works matter? Do we have free will? Or are the denominations so different that it makes more sense to see them as expressions of effectively different religious beliefs loosely contained under the umbrella of Christianity?
When you have passages like Acts 4:12, the answer is clearly that Christianity is not an umbrella religion.
 
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Eftsoon

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When you have passages like Acts 4:12, the answer is clearly that Christianity is not an umbrella religion.
Agreed true Christianity is not an umbrella religion.The Christianity in the world however is broad and varied - as is every other religion and system.
 
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Religiot

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While the accepted denominations all adhere to the Nicene creed and this is regarded as a unifying factor, what real meaning does this have when the churches hold such widely different views on such fundamental questions as Did Christ die for all or only for some?
Died for all, but most will reject Him.
Is it possible to lose salvation having gained it?
Yes, because it is through our faith that God, by His grace, gave us the free gift of life in His Son; therefore, we must abide in His Son, as His Son abides in Him, and they in us: this is a voluntary relationship, empowered by God.
Do works matter?
Yes, for it is through a living faith that the free gift is kept; otherwise, our belief would be in vain.
Do we have free will?
Of course, otherwise, God would be liar when He commands us to choose life.
Or are the denominations so different that it makes more sense to see them as expressions of effectively different religious beliefs loosely contained under the umbrella of Christianity?
God's house is not divided, but one, in Christ: any who contradict the Doctrine of Christ, are not His, but Satan's.

Denominations are man-made divisions, that do not follow from the Doctrine of Christ, but the deep things of Satan.

Divisions against the church are carnal, thus, Satanic; unity for the church is spiritual, thus, Holy.

We must all be servants to Christ, and submit to Him, in all that He says; therefore, anyone causing divisions or offenses contrary to the Doctrine of Christ, must be avoided, for they are doing so pursuant to the will of their father, Satan.
 
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hedrick

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Is that true though? It's not my experience nor that of many people I know or have read accounts of. These encountered God in often desperate times in their lives and were joyously happy to have found the unconditional love they needed. I don't know anyone who has ever described experiencing a will that could only reject God because it was inherently sinful, do you? What you are talking about is a highly abstract and philosophical concept and, I would suggest, is not part of anyone's actual lived experience.
A number of people report not being able to believe. In some cases it's people who would like to be able to. While they may not understand this is due to being inherently sinful, some Christian observers might understand it that way.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'll put it this way, if your view was right He would've stopped inspiring Scripture just before the word "In", the first word of Genesis. Because there'd be no reason.

In my last post to you, #73, I included Rev 3:20, which begins with,
"If anyone..."
And there are other such "if" verses, such as Matt 16:24, Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

IMO you take 'if you will' verses and turn them into 'you will' verses. But from my perspective, from the human perspective, what I really know is that I must persist, I must strive, be vigilant, refrain from sin, do good, persevere, etc as Scripture warns, admonishes, encourages, and instructs. And I can't even know with 100% perfect certainty to begin with if I'm a member of the elect or not. So I don't shrug my shoulders and say, "No problem, I'm guaranteed to do those things anyway." Rather, I simply try to do what I'm told.
I'll try to keep this short. The long sequences of cause and effect are a result of cause. The fact that we effects also cause by our choices, does not eject us from the chain, more is it implied that our wills and choices are not also effects of previous causes. You may call yourself whatever you will, and you can choose whatever you will, but you will choose precisely as God has caused from the beginning.

You want our claims concerning God to imply automatic results, but that is not how it works. That the results will indeed happen exactly as God has planned, is sure. But that they happen in the absence of agency and means, is not how this works.

You make God's large, overarching plans the only use for predestination, and when presented with the notion of even the small details being predestined, you don't even know how to conceive of such a thing --after all, predestination is the large things, no? But the logic, (and Scripture), is inescapable --every detail is what it takes to cause every subsequent detail. There is no 'automatic' here.
 
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I came across this observation by @Cormack that I thought sheds a lot of light on why Christianity in practice is as diverse as it is. I find it a very plausible explanation as to why there are so many wildly different denominations. Here's his comment:

"Here’s an idea about Hinduism that helped me better understand Christianity and Gods goodness. I read Hinduism isn’t really a religion, but rather it’s like an umbrella term for the many different types of religious belief found on the subcontinent of India.

This made sense, lots of the Hindus I knew varied in beliefs. Some were pantheists, others polytheists, a few even proudly claimed that Hinduism was the first monotheistic faith. They all disagreed but the point is that “Hinduism” actually houses a diversity of religious views from across the Indian subcontinent.

The modern day situation with both Christianity and the Bible isn’t much different, and like some kind of kooky boarding house lots of people are lodging here with their own ideas about the character of God."

While the accepted denominations all adhere to the Nicene creed and this is regarded as a unifying factor, what real meaning does this have when the churches hold such widely different views on such fundamental questions as Did Christ die for all or only for some? Is it possible to lose salvation having gained it? Do works matter? Do we have free will? Or are the denominations so different that it makes more sense to see them as expressions of effectively different religious beliefs loosely contained under the umbrella of Christianity?

That is interesting, Christianity could very well be. I was just in the Eschatology forum where they were talking about when the rapture happened. Now there were quite a few views an most hated the view that the rapture is bunk but none the less some including me hold to that view.

So I don't know because some views are not tolerated.
 
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fhansen

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I'll try to keep this short. The long sequences of cause and effect are a result of cause. The fact that we effects also cause by our choices, does not eject us from the chain, more is it implied that our wills and choices are not also effects of previous causes. You may call yourself whatever you will, and you can choose whatever you will, but you will choose precisely as God has caused from the beginning.

You want our claims concerning God to imply automatic results, but that is not how it works. That the results will indeed happen exactly as God has planned, is sure. But that they happen in the absence of agency and means, is not how this works.

You make God's large, overarching plans the only use for predestination, and when presented with the notion of even the small details being predestined, you don't even know how to conceive of such a thing --after all, predestination is the large things, no? But the logic, (and Scripture), is inescapable --every detail is what it takes to cause every subsequent detail. There is no 'automatic' here.
But there's relatively little in scripture to support you're theory. If Jesus said, "If you do this- but, come to think of it, to state this in precise theological terms, you really have no choice but to do this anyway..." that would make more sense of your concepts. But He doesn't, and, again, if your theory was true there would not really be any reason for Him to say anything at all, because the revealed Word-the knowledge given- only makes sense if we can either opt to heed it or refuse to do so. Likewise there'd be no reason to be told to choose good over evil, or exhorted to strive and persevere, etc. Otherwise, again, human life is nothing but a huge, callously and unnecessarily mean puppet show.

What you believe is little more that an intellectual concept of no real use in real life-even if it were true, incidentally. And if our choices are nothing but the effects of God's causation then God, and not man at all, is fully responsible for creating beings with no more ultimate purpose than to suffer and burn eternally in hell, without regard to any real choice of their own, of course, since God caused their choices. He'd be the only culpable cause of all evil, so how could He justifiably blame anyone else for evil? Seriously, why would you even bother to trust such a God?

You're limiting God by suggesting that He couldn't make man free enough to be the primary cause of-the sole being who actually wills- the evil. You're limiting God by insisting, for all practical purposes, that He cannot make man a truly morally accountable being.

Man was made a rational being, with free will, and therefore can break the cycle; his choices need not be the result of causes that precede him. He’s the “master of his own acts” as Irenaeus put it.
 
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If someone had said that to me I would seriously question whether they are obeying God's commandment to love one another. I would suspect they were trying to kid God into giving them Brownie points.
Why else would someone help a poor homeless person unless God had commanded them? Jim Cramer of CNBC was once living in his car. Now he is a multimillionaire.

In Peter’s church they shared things in common. I do not live in such a community and am a capitalist. I have to tolerate socialism as there are passages in the New and Old Testaments commanding giving aid to the poor. Jesus taught it is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:35
 
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Cormack

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Why else would someone help a poor homeless person unless God had commanded them?

Fellow feeling, compassion, sympathy, sentimentality, naivety, even pride, ego, crude speciesism, some of those are probably synonymous, anyhow there’s an obvious wellspring of humanity in people where they’ll provide without the command of an all powerful deity. “It’s all about Jesus” from an old bitty could be the ultimate affirmation of charity or just spicing up her own arrogant persona.
 
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Christians pretend they’ve never heard the expression “gassing someone up,” or gas yourself up. :tearsofjoy: People in church fire up their ego with this silly reverse psychology humble bragging all the time. “Jeeeeesus! I am nothing! without yooooou!” But they’re always the loudest person in the room.
 
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