The nonsense of "faith produces works"
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Kris Jordan
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Hi Guojing,
Who are you trusting in for your salvation (eternal life)? Yourself and your works of obedience?
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Guojing
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But now, I am also trusting in what you have been saying. I am thankful based on Romans 11:11
The difference is that I don’t anticipate revelation and respect that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel during the his first coming on earth (Matthew 15:24)
thus I don’t try to change what he said to Israel in time past. He said what he meant and he meant what he said
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Kris Jordan
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Hi Guojing,
You did not answer my very direct and specific question: Who are you trusting in for your salvation (eternal life)? Yourself and your works of obedience?
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Kris Jordan
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Hi Guojing,
I am trusting Jesus Christ 100% for His payment in full on the cross for me, which was absolutely sufficient to cleanse, redeem, save, and justify me. (Romans 5:1-2; Galatians 2:15-16; John 3:16).
Just curious how you can be trusting 100% in Jesus if you are adding your own works of obedience into your "salvation equation?"
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Guojing
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I am not, I am stating that the sufficiency of death burial and resurrection of Christ on the cross for salvation was not offered to Israel during Jesus first coming on Earth, which is denoted as time past.
In Luke 9:6, for example, the 12 were not preaching that.
The way to salvation for Israel was not based on that, but rather based on believing the identity of Jesus as the promised son of God (John 20:31), which still required law keeping. Jesus told them in a number of places and I took what he said literally, instead of anticipating revelation.
But because Israel rejected their Messiah, the ascended Christ revealed to Paul a mystery, that but now, salvation is now based on the sufficiency of death burial and resurrection of Christ on the cross for salvation
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FredVB
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Guojing said:
The atonement which included the death of Christ on the cross, and later his resurrection after his burial, is the only effective way for payment for justice that God would never compromise that anyone would ever be saved as God's love called for that.
Without knowledge of that, where the gospel has never reached, salvation is still available, as God is not willing that any would perish, with knowing God is there, as God provides for essential knowledge for any such people, and knowing we are separated from God and our sinful ways have something to do with that among those of the age of accountability, and with repenting trusting in the redeemer God would need to provide for any being saved. That is essential to them, there are no exceptions to that, where the gospel reaches they can trust Jesus Christ, those that reject Jesus Christ are the ones rejecting that which is essential in being saved. What there is to know about Jesus Christ is from what the Bible shows, people need to hear what is said of Jesus Christ in there, or read it themselves.
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Yes.
If only there were someone to mediate between us, someone to bring us together, someone to remove God's rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more.--Job 9
For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all - Timothy 2
Job did not know the name of Jesus, but he knew he needed Jesus.
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What, you don't believe "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed...."?
Acts 17 plus 2 Peter 3.
The Lord is not unbiased concerning salvation. He went to a Hell of a lot of trouble to make salvation possible. He is biased in favor of salvation. Do you think Satan need do nothing more than literally trip an evangelist to keep someone out of heaven?
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Albion
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That isn't the issue. Those people who died before the Savior came are in a different category from those who believe or don't believe in Christ after the sacrifice of the Cross, the establishment of Christ's church, and so on. For purposes of dealing with the question being considered, it's the situation of the latter group which is critical.
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Certainly they are in a different category. I believe there are "benefits to membership" in the Body of Christ that not even the Hebrew patriarchs will enjoy.
But salvation is the issue, and what was being discussed.
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Albion
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The way that the righteous in OT times found salvation was different (Abraham's Bosom and all that) from those people of later times who were being debated.
The example you gave of Job, therefore, doesn't help; and there are no examples from the New Testament that I know of in which a non-believer is named, identified, as being saved just the same.
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timothyu
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Jesus' message was the gospel of the Kingdom, the return of the governance of God. . God had already dwelled with the people of the OT. It is the post Jesus crew that has never had the pleasure.
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Your position implies that salvation in the Church Age has become more dependent on the actions of other men (evangelists) than upon the action of God, and that God's provisions for salvation have become more limited.
But Acts 17 argues otherwise.
No, there won't be specific New Testament examples of Job because the New Testament is specifically the first-hand reporting of and from apostles. They don't have any first-hand reports of anything they didn't see first hand.
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fhansen
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Salvation is 100% through Jesus Christ because apart from Him we can do nothing John (15:5), whether to believe, or to persist in doing good Rom (2:7), or to obey the law (Rom 2:13 and Matt 19:26), or to do those works that He’s prepared for us to do in advance (Eph 2:10), or do to “for the least of these” (Matt 25), or to (put to death the sins of the flesh (Rom 8:12-13), or to be holy (Heb 11:6) and righteous (James 2:24), all of which are said, in one way or another, to be necessary in order to gain eternal life. We are saved by faith, via faith, through and on the basis of faith, not simply because we have faith as if that belief, by itself, should save us.
He’s the way; we must believe in and so follow Him, doing what He says. His way is the way of love and He’s the source of that love and faith places us in relationship with that source. And this is why John can tell us that if we claim to have fellowship with Him but do not love, do not walk in the light, do not act righteously, then we don't even know Him; that fellowship will produce that love as long as we remain in it, remain in Him, and that love acts, or works, for good, by its nature. IOW:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34
Love fulfills the law (Rom 13:10), and faith begets love, or else it produces nothing of real value, including eternal life. Love produces works, the right kind, for the right reason.
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Butterball1
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The Bible ties faith and obedient works so close together that faith is an obedient work. The life of the flesh is in the blood, Leviticus 17:11, remove the blood, the flesh is dead. The life of faith is in work of obedience, remove the obedience and faith is dead, James 2:20.
“Faith”—A Word of Action
One of the most absurd statements that we ever read was from a denominationalist who declared: “Faith is the only thing that one can do without doing anything.” The affirmation is a textbook case of contradiction.
The following examples will clearly reveal that genuine faith is not a mere attitude; rather, it is a word of action.
(1) Jesus was teaching in the city of Capernaum. The crowds so pressed around him that some who sought his presence could not gain access to the Lord. Four enterprising men brought a lame friend, climbed to the rooftop of the house wherein Christ was teaching, and lowered their impotent companion through the ceiling. Significantly, the inspired writer comments: “And Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, your sins are forgiven” (Mark 2:5).
What did Christ see? He literally saw the action of these men (including the sick man who obviously endorsed the activity). But the action is called faith. In a similar vein, James challenged: “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith” (James 2:18).
(2) John 3:16 is perhaps the best-known verse in the Bible; but it is one of the most misunderstood: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Does the “belief” of this passage include obedience, or exclude it? A comparison of this verse with Hebrews 5:9 reveals that the former is the case. In John 3:16, believing results in eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, eternal salvation is said to issue from obedience to Christ. It thus should be quite clear that the belief that saves is one that manifests itself in obeying the Son of God. True faith is not just a mental process.
(3) Note this declaration from the Lord: “He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36, ASV).
We have cited the American Standard Version here because it is more accurate in its rendition of the original language than is the King James Version. The term in the latter portion of the verse is apeitheo, which, according to Balz and Schneider, literally means “to disobey” (1990, 118). In this passage “believing” is set in vivid contrast to disobedience.
Is not Christ suggesting that the one who obeys the Son is promised life, but the person who disobeys will not receive such?
Observe a similar usage in Acts 14:1, 2: “[A] great multitude both of Jews and of Greeks believed. But the Jews that were disobedient stirred up the souls of the Gentiles, and made them evil affected against the brethren.”
In the book of Hebrews we are informed that God was displeased with many rebellious Israelites who died in the wilderness. They were condemned because they were “disobedient”—yes, they were not allowed to enter the promised land due to their “unbelief” (3:18, 19). Continuing that analogy, it will be those who have “believed” who will enter the final rest (4:3), but those who are “disobedient” will not (4:6).
The Bible knows nothing of true faith that is divorced from obedience.
(4) When a jailor in the city of Philippi feared for his life during an earthquake that rocked the prison, he pled with Paul and Silas: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” God’s messengers proclaimed to him the gospel. Evincing repentance (for having beaten his prisoners), the jailor washed their stripes. Subsequently, he and his family were immersed (Acts 16:31-33).
Significantly, this entire process is summed up in this fashion: “And he . . . rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God” (v. 34). It is clear that the participle, “having believed,” includes the jailor’s repentance and his baptism.
(5) The book of Romans demonstrates that faith is an action term. For example, Paul commends the “faith” of these saints, which, says he, is “proclaimed throughout the whole world” (1:8). As he concludes the epistle he again congratulates them: “For your obedience is come abroad unto all men” (16:19). Faith and obedience are parallel in these verses. In fact, at the beginning and end of the book the expression, “obedience of faith,” stands like guardian sentinels, defining the character of biblical faith (1:5; 16:26). In Romans 10:16, those who refused to “obey the gospel” fulfilled Isaiah’s prediction that some would not “believe” the divine report.
(6) That the “faith” system of the New Testament is not merely a mental phenomenon is evidenced by Galatians 3:26-27. There Paul declares: “For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For [a conjunction of explanation] as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.”
Immersion was an integral part of the faith process. Later, to the same people, the apostle affirmed that the faith that avails is that which is “working through love” (Galatians 5:6). The fact of the matter is, believing itself is a work (cf. John 6:27-29; cf. 1 Thessalonians 1:3).
(7) James shows the connection between faith and obedience when he writes: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works [obedience], in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You see that faith operated with his works [obedience], and by works [his obedience] was [his] faith made complete; and the scripture was fulfilled which says, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God” (James 2:21-23).
If faith plus obedience constitutes one as a “friend of God,” how would one be characterized who has faith minus obedience?
(8) Those who possessed genuine intellectual-emotional faith were granted the “right to become” children of God (John 1:12), but they were not, by that faith, automatically constituted sons of God.
(9) That faith alone is invalid as a means of redemption is revealed by a number of biblical examples.
(a) There were many Jews who “believed on” Christ (John 8:30-31), but their faith was not operative, hence, the Lord appropriately described them as children of the devil (8:44).
(b) There were those among the Hebrew rulers who “believed on him [Christ],” but because of Pharisaic pressure they would not confess their faith; they loved the glory of men more than that of God (John 12:42).
Will anyone contend that these proud egotists were saved simply because they “believed” (cf. Matthew 12:32)? What was the flaw in their theology?
(c) Luke records that when Christ was preached, “a great number that believed turned to the Lord” (Acts 11:21). The construction of the original language indicates that the “believing” was prior to the “turning,” hence, turning to the Lord involved something in addition to their faith.
The Language Authorities
It is this type of biblical evidence that has compelled leading New Testament language authorities to acknowledge that faith is more than a mere philosophy of belief. Genuine faith cannot be separated from submission to the Lord.
Liddell and Scott show that the verb pisteuo (believe) can mean “to comply” (1869, 1273).
H. Cremmer stated that the noun pistis (faith), both in the Old and New Testaments, “is a bearing towards God and His revelation which recognizes and confides in Him and in it, which not only acknowledges and holds to His word as true, but practically applies and appropriates it” (1962, 482).
W. E. Vine noted that pistis involves “a personal surrender” to Christ (1962, 71).
Lexicographer J. H. Thayer commented that pisteuo includes “a conviction, full of joyful trust, that Jesus is the Messiah”—the divinely appointed author of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God, conjoined with obedience to Christ." (1958, 511).
O. Michael has stated: “Faith understood merely as trust and confession is not able to save. Only through obedience . . . and conduct which fulfills the commandments of God does faith come to completion (Jas. 2:22)” (1975, 604).
Bultmann contended that “‘to believe’ is ‘to obey’” (1968, 205). He stressed that this is particularly emphasized in Hebrews 11:7. He further made this interesting comment: “According to Paul, the event of salvation history is actualized for the individual, not in pious experience, but in his baptism (Gl. 3:27-29). Faith makes it his. Hence faith is not at the end of the way to God, as in Philo. It is at the beginning” (217).
Alan Richardson declared that faith “is confident reliance on God. It is the act by which he lays hold on God’s proffered resources, becomes obedient to what God prescribes, and, abandoning all self-interest and self-reliance, trusts God completely. . . . Obedience, conformity to what God prescribes, is the inevitable concomitant of believing” (1964, 75, 76)."
Wayne Jackson
A Perversion of Biblical Faith
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FredVB
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Albion said:
I think all the old testament saints, in the cloud of witnesses, are examples of people not knowing of Jesus Christ while they were this earth who were saved. And it was Jesus Christ in whom they were saved. God then provided essential knowledge for the faith they had with their being saved. 2 Peter 3:9 is basis in the new testament of the Bible to say those where the gospel does not yet reach that have opportunity to know of God and come to repentance, that they can be saved in Jesus Christ, knowing they have a redeemer.
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Also, Paul in Athens:
For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
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