The Death and True Resurrection of Jesus.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
I am not sure if you understand what those three verses, cited above are saying. Jesus rose before sunrise on Sunday morning. That is all these verses are saying. Jesus could have risen an hour or two earlier, what difference does that make?

I must have missed it. Where do any of these verses say that the Master of the Shabbat, didn't rise on Shabbat, before the witnesses to the empty tomb arrived?

klutedavid · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
I must have missed it. Where do any of these verses say that the Master of the Shabbat, didn't rise on Shabbat, before the witnesses to the empty tomb arrived?

That's not all you missed.

You probably missed the church letters from the second and third centuries. They only mention Sunday as the day of the resurrection.

Please pay special attention to what I write here.

The New Testament contains the verbal witness of the apostles.

The apostles saw the risen Christ on Sunday not on Saturday!

The first day is the day Jesus was witnessed to have risen by the apostles.

The time of the resurrection itself is not stated in the scripture.

So the default position, is the day the apostles witnessed the risen Christ.

You cannot say Jesus rose on the Sabbath because no one witnessed that.

Der Alte · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
The word on appears nowhere in the Greek manuscripts for any of these verses.

How does that invalidate the argument?

Mat_17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mat_20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mar_9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
Mar_10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk_9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk_18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luk_24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

What in three days? These verses say that the temple will be rebuilt in three days. Just because the temple has been rebuilt; does not mean that it is active. In other words none of these verse say that he would be risen in three days.

This argument doesn't make any sense. Does it or does it not refer to Jesus' resurrection? Does "in three days" mean exactly the same thing as "three days and three nights?

Both of these verses say that he would rise after three days. This would occur after the temple was rebuilt in three days,

Again this does not make any sense. All the cited verses refer to the exact same event but they describe it differently. Why don't they all say the exact same thing they refer to the same exact event?

There is our sign. I take Yahshua at his word, all of the above.
I don't however try to diminish or dismiss what he actually said, or make him say something that he didn't actually say.

You certainly do diminish what Jesus said you blow off 16 verses.

Here is a prime example of why we shouldn't trust in translators and commentary to reveal the truth of scripture.

An argument that you have not demonstrated.

Let us look to 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

To what end?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
That's not all you missed.

You cannot say Jesus rose on the Sabbath because no one witnessed that.

Who witnessed Yahshua in the act of rising on the first day.

Are you paying attention?

No one!

The words in grey aren't found in the Greek manuscripts.

(CLV) Mk 16:9
Now, rising in the morning in the first sabbath, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Those commas aren't there in the Greek either.

Der Alte · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
However, a command for cessation from work is in fact a command for cessation. I pick up on these axioms intuitively.

And in so doing change scripture to fit your assumptions/presuppositions. Isn't there a commandment somewhere not to add to or take from scripture?
1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT and preparing and cooking of food is specifically permitted which would require other actions prohibited on the Sabbath gathering wood and lighting a fire. Wasn't someone put to death for doing that in the OT?

Der Alte · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
Who witnessed Yahshua in the act of rising on the first day.
Are you paying attention?
No one!
The words in grey aren't found in the Greek manuscripts.
(CLV) Mk 16:9
Now, rising in the morning in the first sabbath, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.
Those commas aren't there in the Greek either.

Mark 16:9 is part of the longer ending of Mark which was not part of the original and was added later. Modern translations omit it.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

Der Alte said:
This argument doesn't make any sense. Does it or does it not refer to Jesus' resurrection? Does "in three days" mean exactly the same thing as "three days and three nights?

It could. Let's work through this maze backwards. It's often easier that way.

Let's suppose that Yahshua rose on the Shabbat, at the same hour that that he had died on the stake.

If we take the daytime hours previous to his rising on that day, and add them to the hours that he was in the grave after death on the first day. We get one full day.

Daytime hours in grave on Shabbat + daytime hours on day of death, before sundown = 1 day.

Nighttime hours of of Shabbat = 1 night.

Daytime hours of the 6th day = 1 day + 1 = 2

Nighttime hours of the 6th day = 1 night + 1 = 2

Daytime hours of the 5th day = 1 day + 2 = 3

We can now account for three full ~12 hour hour days on the 5th day.

Nighttime hours of the 5th day = 1 night + 2 = 3 nights.

We can now account for three full ~12 hour hour nights on the 5th day.

6 X 12 = 72

We can now account for a full 72 hours in the grave before he rose, fulfilling scripture, prophecy, and passing the Deuteronomy 13 Test.

This would place Yahshua's death on the fourth day.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

Der Alte said:
And in so doing change scripture to fit your assumptions/presuppositions. Isn't there a commandment somewhere not to add to or take from scripture?
1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT and preparing and cooking of food is specifically permitted which would require other actions prohibited on the Sabbath gathering wood and lighting a fire. Wasn't someone put to death for doing that in the OT?

Gathering wood is very much different than eating.

It seems that the Pharisees fell into the same misunderstanding of scripture.

(CLV) Mt 12:1
At that season Jesus went through the sowings on the sabbaths. Now His disciples hunger, and they begin to be plucking the ears and to be eating.

(CLV) Mt 12:2
Now the Pharisees, perceiving it, say to Him, "Lo! your disciples are doing what is not allowed to be done on a sabbath."

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

Der Alte said:
Mark 16:9 is part of the longer ending of Mark which was not part of the original and was added later. Modern translations omit it.

Thank you for bringing up that point.

I wasn't one who brought up that verse. I was responding to the altered rendering of this addition to scripture. If one is going to cite this fabrication as scripture; it should at least adhere to the fabricated manuscripts.

prodromos · Mar 27, 2021

Bro.T said:
Three places shows Jesus rose before SUNDAY

They show no such thing.

In Mark 16: 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

Sunday began around 10 hours earlier.

(Luke 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. (4) And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: (5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? (6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

Again, it had been Sunday for at least 10 hours by this time.

(John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Before sunrise, but Sunday began some 10-12 hours earlier at sunset.

Three places in the Bible saying the same thing, Jesus was gone or risen before Sunday Morning.

Before the dawn on Sunday, which still leaves approximately 10-12 hours after sunset on the Sabbath in which Jesus rose.

You still can't get three days and three nights from Good Friday to Sunday Morning!

Sure you can. Synecdoche.

prodromos · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
This would place Yahshua's death on the fourth day.

You then have the problem of why the myrrh bearing women made no attempt to annoint Jesus' body on Friday, despite immediately preparing to do so on the eve of His crucifixion.

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

prodromos said:
You then have the problem of why the myrrh bearing women made no attempt to annoint Jesus' body on Friday, despite immediately preparing to do so on the eve of His crucifixion.

Can you prove that he was not anointed on the the 6th day?

Your use word eve, That threw me for a second. It's ambiguous.

I'll use the word night for clarity.

Scripture tells us that Myrrh was applied to Yahshua on the night of his burial.

(CLV) Jn 19:38
Now after these things Joseph from Arimathea (being a disciple of Jesus, yet hidden because of fear of the Jews) asks Pilate that he should be taking away the body of Jesus. And Pilate permits him. He came, then, and takes away His body.

(CLV) Jn 19:39
Now Nicodemus also came (who came to Him at night at first (πρωτον first)), bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds troy.

(CLV) Jn 19:40
They got the body of Jesus, then, and they bind it in swathings with the spices, according as the custom of the Jews is to bury.

"Custom of the Jews?" Who is the author of John writing to?

klutedavid · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
Who witnessed Yahshua in the act of rising on the first day.

I never said anything about a witness of the rising from the tomb.

Here I repeat what I said.

The apostles saw the risen Christ on Sunday not on Saturday!

The timing is when the apostles witnessed the risen Christ. That was on Sunday.

Are you paying attention?

Just read what I wrote Hark.

(CLV) Mk 16:9
Now, rising in the morning in the first sabbath, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.[/QUOTE]Are you inferring that Jesus rose on the morning of the sabbath day?

If you are Hark, then Jesus was buried on Wednesday morning.

We have a problem Houston.

klutedavid · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
I must have missed it. Where do any of these verses say that the Master of the Shabbat, didn't rise on Shabbat, before the witnesses to the empty tomb arrived?

There is no mention of a seventh day resurrection anywhere in the New Testament. The time of the resurrection is unknown, not recorded. I can tell you when the risen Christ was witnessed to have risen, on Sunday, Hark.

It was on Sunday when the apostles saw the risen Christ. Any wonder Hark, that the early church met before dawn on Sunday.

Why do you think church tradition dictates that gathering together on a Sunday?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
Are you inferring that Jesus rose on the morning of the sabbath day?

If you are Hark, then Jesus was buried on Wednesday morning.

How do you figure that one?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
The apostles saw the risen Christ on Sunday not on Saturday!

So what? Do you have any evidence from anyone who saw when he rose?

HARK! · Mar 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
The time of the resurrection is unknown, not recorded.

Very good. Thank you for conceding on that critical point.

There are no known witnesses to when Yahshua was raised.

That means that there are no known witnesses to refute the timetable on which Yahshua said he would be raised, 3 days, and 3 nights.

We'll just have to take Yahshua at his own word, as to when he said that he would be raised.

DamianWarS · Mar 27, 2021

HARK! said:
(CLV) Lk 24:1
Now in the early depths of one of the sabbaths, they, and certain others together with them, came onto the tomb, bringing the spices which they make ready.

(CLV) Jn 20:1
Now, on one of the sabbaths, Miriam Magdalene is coming to the tomb in the morning, there being still darkness, and is observing the stone taken away from the door of the tomb.

One = μια mia

Protos means first

Of the = των tOn

Sabbaths = σαββατων sabbatOn

Sabbaton plural, not day singular. The word day does not even exist in these verses.

refuted by every single other translation

HARK! · Mar 28, 2021

DamianWarS said:
refuted by every single other translation

Young's Literal Translation
And on the first of the sabbaths, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bearing the spices they made ready, and certain others with them,

Young's Literal Translation
And on the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene doth come early (there being yet darkness) to the tomb, and she seeth the stone having been taken away out of the tomb,

Would you like to double down with an argumentum ad populum?

prodromos · Mar 28, 2021

HARK! said:
Who witnessed Yahshua in the act of rising on the first day.

Are you paying attention?

No one!

The words in grey aren't found in the Greek manuscripts.

(CLV) Mk 16:9
Now, rising in the morning in the first sabbath, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Those commas aren't there in the Greek either.

Peter states to Cornelius that Jesus rose on the third day. He may not have been a witness to the event but he had 40 days to learn the truth from the one person who was.

The Death and True Resurrection of Jesus.

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