Really struggling with the idea of Hell

cerulean said:

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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On the contrary, I thought you made your "case" very effectively.

However, my saying that doesn't get you any closer to finding a resolution of the problem you addressed which, by the way, has troubled more than a few serious Christians, both in antiquity and in our own times.

I'm with you. There are several threads in the Controversial Theology forum that address this subject. It's worth a look to get an idea of the different perspectives among Christians. You might create a thread there where Christians can speak freely.

cerulean said:

Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I

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Where did you get their sins are not paid for, because i know it is not from the Bible.

There are plenty of genuine Christians who do not believe in the eternal torment doctrine, including some well known theologians, and they have plenty of scripture to back them up. It wasn't something taught much until around 500 AD and the Eastern Orthodox church still doesn't.

There's a current thread about one of those theologians David Bentley Hart on Hell

You might find this lecture helpful. I know the speaker and he's like the last person I would have expected to not support the traditional view.

It's true that there are, and long have been, Christians who take the other view, but they are in the minority. In addition, their perspective isn't very well supported by Scripture...but the idea of an eternal estrangement from God and punishment is.

Take it to God, tell it to him, pour out your heart to him and trust him to give you what you need in regard to this now.

Albion said:

It's true that there are, and long have been, Christians who take the other view, but they are in the minority. In addition, their perspective isn't very well supported by Scripture...but the idea of an eternal estrangement from God and punishment is.

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I've found it's the other two Christian views that seem to have better scriptural support.

MMXX said:

I've found it's the other two Christian views that seem to have better scriptural support.

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I'd be interested to know which verses you have in mind then. Against the many verses that speak of a hell in the traditional way, there are only a few I know of which so much as hint at the opposite conclusion.

I think the horrors of hell hits us all as Christians from time to time, it makes me shudder. But to rejoice in the provision given to us trumps that. And that's the thing, God gave us that provision in His Son. Those who reject it, thus Him, condemn themselves. They swallow or love too much the lies of the enemy who wants to rob kill and destroy. We are warned, we are told of the armor of God in Holy Scripture and we need to heed that as a people.

Society is moving from scripture thus God Himself, we are warned of these times too. We seal our own fate as a people. We want a feel good message, well the gospel is good news but it's also a hard message. It's very serious this fall of man. Don't fall for Satan's lies, he loves to come in as light but will destroy even the elect if he could.

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

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Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?

Because their sins aren't actually purely temporal. All sin is ultimately against God who is spiritual and infinite, not temporal.

If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did He ever create humankind?

For the few He knew would freely turn to Him in faith and love.

If God is good, then the world in which we live is, of all possible worlds, the one in which the maximum number of people who could be saved are saved. In all other possible worlds, people freely choosing to receive Christ and be saved would be less than the one we're in. Again, this is predicated on the idea that God is good and so would choose the best possible world for the maximum number of people to be saved.

Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgment Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?

The Bible never uses the word "torture" in reference to the suffering of hell. The word that is used is "torment." The difference between the two words is important. The former - at least in the way you're using it - implies God is actively inflicting pain upon those in hell, like some medieval guy torturing the village witch on the rack in the castle dungeon. Nowhere does the Bible say God acts this way toward those in hell. He is not a Divine Torturer of the lost in hell. Instead, the place itself, its utter separation from God, is a torment to the lost, as is the horrible realization that, in hell, one has only oneself for company forever. Much of the torment of hell is derived from the wretchedness of the person who is there and from God's absence, not His presence.

Anyway, why does God consign the unrepentant lost to eternal separation from Himself? Because their sin is so awful that it deserves nothing less. Destroying wicked, rebellious sinners fails to properly recognize the heinousness of their sin, which is only appropriately punished by the eternal "second death."

God isn't over-reacting to our sin with eternal conscious torment of the unrepentant wicked in hell; we are under-reacting to our sin, calling God unfair in His severe response to it. God is showing us just how evil our sin is in His eyes (which are the only eyes that really matter) by the terrible, eternal punishment He levies upon our sin. We do the same in our human systems of justice: The worse the crime, the harsher the punishment of it. What does it mean that our sin is punished with eternal hell, then? It means our sin is far, far worse than we want to think that it is!

What should we expect our response to be, given how comfortable with sin we are? We live in it 24/7; we love it; we encourage others to participate in it with us. Will we be able to see our sin as God does, then? Only if He helps us to do so. And part of how He does that is to fit the punishment to our crime, revealing in doing so the deep, awful wickedness of our rebellion and sin against God.

cerulean said:

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

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No, I don't think they will suffer as Jesus did. Not even close. Remember, his physical suffering was only a part of the terrible price he paid for our sin. The wrath of God was poured out upon him, crushing Christ in a way none of us will ever fully understand, exacting a toll upon him that only a supernatural being could bear.

I wonder, though, if you are looking from your perspective outward to God. Its unavoidable - to some degree - but as much as possible, you should guard against trying to understand God entirely from your frame of reference.

cerulean said:

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief.

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"The door to hell is locked from the inside." - C.S. Lewis

No one is in hell who has not "suppressed the truth in unrighteousness," spurning God and His atoning work for them on the cross, and choosing earthly and then eternal separation from their Maker.

cerulean said:

I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

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He doesn't condemn them; they condemn themselves.

John 3:16-17
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

cerulean said:

"If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?"

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That, I beleive, is where you may ere, and may be the basis of what causes many concerns just like yours.

What type of unbearable agony? And when you think about it, do you have a genuine reason to to believe that unbearable agony will truly exist?

Do we have reason to believe hell will be any worse than eternity in prison, or even that bad?

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.

I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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You seem to have few misconceptions there
1) "non Christian's sins aren't paid of " is simply not Scriptural , Christ died for the ungodly and everybody not just Christians

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

2) People are offered salvation thru Holy Spirit one way or another and they either accept it or reject it , rejected goes to Lake of Fire in the end simple as that , people don't suffer for lying cuz Christ paid for it on cross they suffer cuz they reject Holy Spirit
thats why Christ said Matthew 12:31-32

3) God said people have no excuse and know him but reject him cuz of thier wicked ways and desires

4) Salvation is free but they still reject it its not matter of " I can't do it " excuse

5) God is also God of wrath not just love , probably there is more wrath than love in the Bible to begin with

6) Christ's suffering was not mostly from the whips and nails but literally God poured his wrath on him when he was nailed to cross he was suffering our hell right there , then he finished and after that he send his spirit into God's hands and died it's not like Romans tortured him till he died , they were disappointed that he died too early and didn't even break his bones they wanted to make him die longer.Bones were broken so victim finally suffocate but Jesus died too fast to begin with compared to normal person who would do it for hours and had to be finished like that else he would be there way more hours.

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.

I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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That's a very serious question and I think every rational person should ask it. The best answer to that question I've ever heard is the following, and if you got 8 minutes to spare I'd invite you to listen to it

Albion said:

I'd be interested to know which verses you have in mind then. Against the many verses that speak of a hell in the traditional way, there are only a few I know of which so much as hint at the opposite conclusion.

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I'd say to watch the video I posted. Steve Gregg has extensively taught chapter and verse of the Bible. And also there's understanding hyperbolic language like 'pluck out your eye and cut off your hand'. I started picking up on that a long time ago reading the OT prophets. If one takes them literally, all of Israel would have been incinerated before Jesus' time. Like them, Jesus was coming in on the heels of the total destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. A lot of what He says is about that. Lots of national judgements.

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.

I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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I've made my peace with it. There are some very bad people who deserve to be there, and the worse a person is, the worse Hell will be for them. What's best of course, is that people take advantage of God's mercy and amnesty while they still can.

I'm not gonna lie, I find it awfully depressing too, even if I understand the reasoning. Sort of.

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.

I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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I've heard all these arguments and I will make a lot of points:
1)God is not "just loving" but Holy and Just. God allows man to do both good AND evil in this life as he gave Adam and Eve that choice. Being "good" has its rewards just as being "evil" has punishment. A Just God must punish wrongdoing. If you don't think people that do evil should be allowed to do it without ever any repercussion in this life then why would you think God should likewise not punish people for evil deeds in the next.
2)There is no such thing as "temporal" sins, that is a made up idea all sins that aren't forgiven are eternal sins as the "corruption" they have on a soul continues in the beyond. The only way to remove sin is the blood of Jesus .
It is like people having no immune system and getting any infection, without help they can die from the tiniest of disease in their body... even the smallest sin is pervasive and leads to eternal "death" or separation from God in the afterlife.
3)We do not know the exact process of Jesus taking on the sins of everyone past present and future for all time, to suggest it is only a 24 hour or whatever process when it could be Jesus is spending time in hell for everyone that would be there and did it for 20+ billion people could be truth. The stress of all the sins of the world could hav been billions of times more intense that the worst torture in hell at all. God can do things that are beyond our comprehension and trying to oversimplify things so as to paint God as unfair. It is quite possible that things are extremely complicated such that only God can manage salvation.
4)I personally believe that God is so loving that nobody sent to hell will truly experience anywhere near the punishment/torment that they deserve. I think that many in hell will be so upset that they will demand God punish them to ease their suffering, they will feel forever guilty and torment will ease their guilt and shame.
5)Most people who desire everyone to go to heaven don't seem to think that the suffering by people in this life by sins means anything and that God turns a blind eye to people that torture, rape, bully, murder and enslave others in this life. They think God must "wink" at people who harass his people and who defy him in this life when they get to heaven he must open his door to people who purposely wanted NOTHING to do with him, people who desired to do evil and expect to be invited to live with him.... God isn't amused. Only people who desire to be with God ..... IN THIS LIFE.... will be with him in the next life.
6)The Gospel is very serious business. God doesn't DIE for our sins because he thinks this life is a throwaway "practice" life and everyone gets a "do-over" in the next life, this life is for real and messing it up by rejecting God is final and has eternal consequences.
7)If you have ever had someone do a crime against you and they are caught should the judge just wink and say... "you really didn't mean to murder that person" I'm letting you go with a warning..... don't do it again.
Hell is no joke, there are people out there that are so evil and God allows people to choose. God didn't stop Adam and Eve from eating the fruit, he allowed it and man has suffered since.
8)God isn't as loving as people think he is. God drowned almost everyone on the planet once, he has told Israel to kill entire nations women and children even their animals be put to death. If God was truly as loving as people insist he wouldn't have allowed himself to suffer and die the death of the cross, he wouldn't have allowed world wars and famine and disease to run rampant and all sorts of evil.
9)Choice.... without choice we cannot truly love or hate, God wants those in heaven with him to love him, he doesn't want people there that hate him or are indifferent to him just as if you have a private party you don't invite all the murderers and rapists and terrorists to it.... you slam the door in their faces.

Some great answers here. The only thing I would add is that the human spirit is a one way street. Once a human is created the spirit can not go back into the box for any reason. God's relationship with Satan and man is somewhat of a legal matter. Once this was set in motion, there is no turning back. God cannot renege or move the goal posts to accommodate what we think might be fairer. If He could then He could wipe out Satan, wipe out man's free will, manipulate things perfectly for what you might think is a better outcome. Nope, that will not happen. We do not know everything, so just move on and trust in God.

I too had a crisis about people going to hell. At one point, I thought I was personally responsible to bring in every soul in my city. This false burden resulted in burn out. Fortunately, I heard a message centered on John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” Jesus' burden at this time was the 12 disciples, not the world. We have to be careful to not just cast our care, but to only take up the burdens that God has given us. To try and do too much, (beyond what God intends) is fleshly and will not bear much fruit anyway.

No worries if you are not interested but one teaching series that might help you understand more about God in some of these issues is from Bob Yandian, his series "Knowing God" which comprises of these titles.
Sermon Titles:

The Independence of God
The Will of God
God’s Infinite Knowledge
The Foreknowledge of God
The Greatness of God
Our Unchanging God
The Holiness of God
God’s Omnipotence
God’s Faithfulness
The Goodness of God
The Patience of God
The Mercy of God
The Wrath of God

cerulean said:

I've been a Christian for 3 and a half years, and for the first time, I'm starting to really wrestle with the idea of a loving God sending people to Hell. Throughout my life as a Christian, I've never questioned it. I've always thought, "Of course it's fair that God sends non-Christians to Hell! Their sins aren't paid for, so they have to take the punishment of their sins upon themselves." I never really allowed myself to think about the concept of eternal suffering too hard, because I was afraid that if I started questioning the fairness of this, I would end up leaving the faith. But recently I've started asking questions I've never let myself ask before, like: "Why do the damned suffer eternal punishment for temporal sins?" "If God knew the vast majority of people would end up in unbearable agony for all eternity, why did he ever create humankind?" "Why can't God just destroy the wicked on Judgement Day? Why keep them around for the sole purpose of torturing them?"

Today I was reading an article about the physical suffering of Jesus on the Cross, and couldn't help but think to myself, "the people in Hell will suffer just as much, if not more, than this. And while Jesus' physical torture lasted less than 24 hours, their torture will never end." I immediately tried to push this blasphemous thought out of my head, but it still lingers.

Now that I'm having these questions, it's getting much harder to walk with the Lord like I used to. It's very difficult to feel affection for God when I remember that He's going to sentence the vast majority of humanity to an eternity of unimaginable torture, with no hope of relief. I mean, how does this knowledge not drive us all insane? I can't even walk around Walmart anymore without constantly thinking to myself, "Most of the people in this store will spend eternity in Hell." I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy.

I know that no matter what my feelings tell me, my God is just and merciful. I understand that any punishment God hands out is perfectly fair. I know that He is not a sadistic monster, no matter how strongly I feel otherwise. So please do not read this post as me accusing God of those things, because I'm not. I just need to figure out how to reconcile my belief that God is good with my belief that God condemns 99% of people to eternal, conscious torment.

Sorry if this post is all jumbled or makes no sense, I'm really not in the right mental state to be forming coherent thoughts right now.

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What if hell was not fire, what if hell was simply not being in the company of God forever? Those who reject God are not likely to miss not being with Him because they do not believe in Him anyway. Those who believe in God know that being with God forever is going to be fantastic beyond words. God does not send anyone to hell, everyone makes their own decision on where they go. BUT THE BIBLE says hell is fire and it is horrible, when the Bible was written how would you explain what it is going to be like being without God forever, you have to use words and concepts that people are going to understand. Burning forever is certainly one of the worst things a person can think of and I would suggest the being without God forever is equivalent.