Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

TribulationSigns · Mar 22, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Let me ask you this.
Do you really think that there will be planting crops and building construction projects and weddings being planned, during the events of Revelation 8-11? An asteroid impact, a supervolcano eruption, the water turns to blood and is poisoning people, the grass is all on fire, the sky is choked with smoke, people are being tormented by demons for 5 months, 2 billion people are dying in a war.

The only way you're going to have new construction projects and weddings being planned, is if there's a sense of normalcy in the world.
The world during the trumpets (the wrath of God) is anything but normal.
Plus the people on the earth at that time already know it's the wrath of the lamb. They said as much in Revelation 6:17, and the elite already hid themselves in bunkers.

Perhaps you have been watching too much Hollywood disaster movies that proved to me that you lacks spiritual discernment on the symbolism of God's Word in the Book of Revealtion.

We need to carefully study of God's Word. It is certainly not revealed by making unsupportable rash statements about symbolism or having disdain for God's metaphors and allegories. Yet to whom they are revealed, is God's business.

John 16:13

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And God (not TribulationSigns) said that the things of the Spiritual are discerned by the Spirit, and that they will not be discerned by the natural/carnal man. These things are foolishness to him. That's a fact of scripture, not my rhetoric. As such, it's either true, or it's a lie, depending upon if we have saving faith, or dead faith. So it's not about agreeing with me, it's about listening to what the word of God says, or fighting against it. It's about the works of Christ and who hears it, and who thinks it foolishness. And it's always been. It's the reason Christ spoke in parables, and yet said He told them plainly, but they wouldn't hear. He didn't have to tell them "I AM The Messiah" as many seem to imply, He still told them plainly by His words, and yet they STILL would not hear nor follow. But "HIS" Sheep do, because it's spiritually discerned.

Therefore, your literal inteprations are designed for the fools that I will no longer bother to debate with. Moving on.

Thank you.

Jamdoc · Mar 22, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Perhaps you have been watching too much Hollywood disaster movies that proved to me that you lacks spiritual discernment on the symbolism of God's Word in the Book of Revealtion.

We need to carefully study of God's Word. It is certainly not revealed by making unsupportable rash statements about symbolism or having disdain for God's metaphors and allegories. Yet to whom they are revealed, is God's business.

John 16:13

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And God (not TribulationSigns) said that the things of the Spiritual are discerned by the Spirit, and that they will not be discerned by the natural/carnal man. These things are foolishness to him. That's a fact of scripture, not my rhetoric. As such, it's either true, or it's a lie, depending upon if we have saving faith, or dead faith. So it's not about agreeing with me, it's about listening to what the word of God says, or fighting against it. It's about the works of Christ and who hears it, and who thinks it foolishness. And it's always been. It's the reason Christ spoke in parables, and yet said He told them plainly, but they wouldn't hear. He didn't have to tell them "I AM The Messiah" as many seem to imply, He still told them plainly by His words, and yet they STILL would not hear nor follow. But "HIS" Sheep do, because it's spiritually discerned.

Therefore, your literal inteprations are designed for the fools that I will no longer bother to debate with. Moving on.

Thank you.

Please stop stooping to insults and accusations.

Because we're going to talk past each other that way anyway.

The spirit guided me to Revelation itself being 2 witnesses, and guided me to understand that if it is a symbol, the book itself defines what the symbol means, such as the many waters, the 2 beasts, the heads and crowns, the harlot, and the seven stars and seven lampstands. If the symbol is not defined as such by the book itself, it may be literal.

You are also taking literally "the last trump" as being the 7th trumpet judgement of the wrath of God, appointing people who placed their faith in Jesus, to His wrath. You cannot spiritually discern between Tribulation and Wrath of God. You also can't spiritually discern that what Jesus talked about it being like the days of Noah and Lot was that it was a state of normalcy, where Noah and Lot warned of impending destruction and they didn't believe it, they thought Lot was joking. For unbelievers it was all normal days right up until the wrath of God was poured out. For believers they knew it was coming and were persecuted for their beliefs.
The Great Tribulations are the ultimate expression of that. Christians will know the wrath of God is coming, they will be persecuted and going through the Great Tribulations. Unbelievers will think they're building towards their realized Utopia on Earth. To them, they'll think we're joking or are idiots when we say God is going to judge the world and pour out His wrath because to them, God is already ruling the world (as the Antichrist)

Because you can't spiritually discern the difference between Tribulation and Wrath of God, and because you can't spiritually discern what is meant by the Days of Noah and Days of Lot, you're going to fail with all the rest of interpretation.
Even pretribulationists have a better grasp on the Days of Noah and Days of Lot, they just have a poor understanding of what Tribulations are and don't know the difference between Tribulations and Wrath of God.

Jamdoc · Mar 22, 2021

This is something also spiritually discerned, it's a puzzle like I keep being prodded to put this together.
so here goes

Isaiah 26:20

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Which pretrib will erroneously see that as the whole 70th week, and post trib will erroneously see that as Believers hiding from the wrath of God on Earth rather than in Heaven. But verse back

Isaiah 26:19

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place before the indignation (Wrath). Pretrib understand this, but erroneously see the entire 70th week as the Wrath. Post trib, this verse and this timing would be a stumbling block, if they didn't just gloss over it.

Daniel 12:1-2

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection is after the Great Tribulations.

So part 1 of the puzzle is how do you have a resurrection before the Indignation (that we hide from) and after the Great Tribulations?

Part 2, the hiding from the indignation.
Pre trib understands this as being in heaven
Post trib sees this as hiding on Earth.

There is hiding on Earth, but Revelation 6 tells us WHO is hiding on the Earth

Revelation 6:15-16

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

When the sun and moon darken, it is unbelievers who hide themselves in bunkers and caves on the Earth. Not believers.
But if you are post trib and believe that we're to stay on the Earth during the 7 trumpets, then a believer would also be going to ground, afterall, Isaiah 26 says to hide from the Indignation.
But what does scripture tell us to do?

Luke 21:28

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Not hide, look up.
This contrasts with what Jesus tells us to do when those in Judea see the Abomination of Desolation

Matthew 24:15-

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So for the Great Tribulations we're to flee and hide in the wilderness, on Earth

But when the Sun and Moon Darken, we're not to hide we're to lift up our heads and look up.

That is a puzzle, if you want spiritual discernment, put the puzzle together.
and you'll see under most current doctrines, the puzzle pieces don't all fit.

iamlamad · Mar 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
This is something also spiritually discerned, it's a puzzle like I keep being prodded to put this together.
so here goes

Isaiah 26:20

Which pretrib will erroneously see that as the whole 70th week, and post trib will erroneously see that as Believers hiding from the wrath of God on Earth rather than in Heaven. But verse back

Isaiah 26:19

The resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place before the indignation (Wrath). Pretrib understand this, but erroneously see the entire 70th week as the Wrath. Post trib, this verse and this timing would be a stumbling block, if they didn't just gloss over it.

Daniel 12:1-2

The resurrection is after the Great Tribulations.

So part 1 of the puzzle is how do you have a resurrection before the Indignation (that we hide from) and after the Great Tribulations?

Part 2, the hiding from the indignation.
Pre trib understands this as being in heaven
Post trib sees this as hiding on Earth.

There is hiding on Earth, but Revelation 6 tells us WHO is hiding on the Earth

Revelation 6:15-16

When the sun and moon darken, it is unbelievers who hide themselves in bunkers and caves on the Earth. Not believers.
But if you are post trib and believe that we're to stay on the Earth during the 7 trumpets, then a believer would also be going to ground, afterall, Isaiah 26 says to hide from the Indignation.
But what does scripture tell us to do?

Luke 21:28

Not hide, look up.
This contrasts with what Jesus tells us to do when those in Judea see the Abomination of Desolation

Matthew 24:15-

So for the Great Tribulations we're to flee and hide in the wilderness, on Earth

But when the Sun and Moon Darken, we're not to hide we're to lift up our heads and look up.

That is a puzzle, if you want spiritual discernment, put the puzzle together.
and you'll see under most current doctrines, the puzzle pieces don't all fit.

This post seems to escape the reality of the written word in several directions. First, let's understand the 70th week timeline as shown in Revelation. It officially begins with the 7th seal as the opening with the opening salvo as the first trumpet judgment. Note also that John shows us the Day of His wrath starting (or being announced) at the 6th seal, showing us that the 70th week STARTS with God's wrath. After all, it is also the start of the Day of the Lord - that day that comes with God's fierce anger to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

The 70th week progresses through the first 6 trumpet judgments in the first half of the week, and the midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet. Therefore, John proves to those who study his book that the first half of the week is indeed the wrath of God: every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath for it happens inside the DAY of His wrath.

Then in the last half of the week, Rev. 12-16, the vials filled with His wrath are poured out, so John proves to us that the ENTIRE WEEK is God's wrath, all taking place INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 26 without a doubt is speaking of the rapture and the dead in Christ rising. The hiding places are of course in heaven.

Daniel 12:1-2 The resurrection is after the Great Tribulations. Why did you add the "s?" The bible doesn't add an "s". The question must be asked, WHICH "resurrection?" Of course the only correct answer is the resurrection that will include Daniel - the resurrection of the Old Testament saints - and that resurrection will come "on the last day" of the 70th week or at the 7th vial in chapter 16. It is indeed after the days of GT. However, this resurrection has nothing to do with the resurrection of the Dead in Christ who will rise up before any part of the 70th week. Notice that the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) is seen in heaven in chapter 7, before the WEEK begins in chapter 8. That makes John's vision of the raptured church PRETRIB.

So for the Great Tribulations we're to flee and hide in the wilderness, on Earth Who is WE? It is not the church, for John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, before the week is started. And Paul tells us the rapture will come JUST before wrath.

But when the Sun and Moon Darken An astute student of end times knows that the signs in the Sun and Moon come TWICE: first as a sign of the coming Day of the Lord, and then again over 7 years later as the sign of His coming to Armageddon.

The "puzzle" will only fit together with pretrib.

iamlamad · Mar 23, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Please stop stooping to insults and accusations.

Because we're going to talk past each other that way anyway.

The spirit guided me to Revelation itself being 2 witnesses, and guided me to understand that if it is a symbol, the book itself defines what the symbol means, such as the many waters, the 2 beasts, the heads and crowns, the harlot, and the seven stars and seven lampstands. If the symbol is not defined as such by the book itself, it may be literal.

You are also taking literally "the last trump" as being the 7th trumpet judgement of the wrath of God, appointing people who placed their faith in Jesus, to His wrath. You cannot spiritually discern between Tribulation and Wrath of God. You also can't spiritually discern that what Jesus talked about it being like the days of Noah and Lot was that it was a state of normalcy, where Noah and Lot warned of impending destruction and they didn't believe it, they thought Lot was joking. For unbelievers it was all normal days right up until the wrath of God was poured out. For believers they knew it was coming and were persecuted for their beliefs.
The Great Tribulations are the ultimate expression of that. Christians will know the wrath of God is coming, they will be persecuted and going through the Great Tribulations. Unbelievers will think they're building towards their realized Utopia on Earth. To them, they'll think we're joking or are idiots when we say God is going to judge the world and pour out His wrath because to them, God is already ruling the world (as the Antichrist)

Because you can't spiritually discern the difference between Tribulation and Wrath of God, and because you can't spiritually discern what is meant by the Days of Noah and Days of Lot, you're going to fail with all the rest of interpretation.
Even pretribulationists have a better grasp on the Days of Noah and Days of Lot, they just have a poor understanding of what Tribulations are and don't know the difference between Tribulations and Wrath of God.

Why are you adding an "s" to "Great Tribulation" when the bible does not? That tends to cause readers to skip to the next post.

Because you can't spiritually discern the difference between Tribulation and Wrath of God, Why do you separate these two when God shows us they are concurrent? Note carefully, John starts the DAY of His wrath before any trumpet is sounded, showing us that every trumpet is sounded INSIDE the Day of His wrath - proving every trumpet comes with His wrath. If you care to go to the Old Testament and study THE DAY, you will find God's purpose in the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath is to destroy the world and the sinners in the world. Think about what this is saying. Then notice in Rev. 7 John talks about the HURT about to come on the world. Study these first trumpet judgments and see that they are FULFILLING the destruction of the world and the sinners in the world. Of course, they are the start of the wrath of God poured out. They are the opening salvo's of the Day of His wrath.

You also can't spiritually discern that what Jesus talked about it being like the days of Noah and Lot was that it was a state of normalcy You are closer here: good job. If you read closely, the gospel writers used a preposition: the days would be like the days of Noah FOR... the FOR shows us the POINT Jesus will make. His only point in comparison for the days of Noah is the SUDDENNESS of their destruction. They were living life to the fullest (Just like we all do) right up until the woke up one morning that was their LAST. In other words, SUDDENLY. Of course they could have used Noah's Ark for the warning, but they didn't. For Lot, they had no warning. They woke up that day thinking it would be a day just like their yesterday - but they all died suddenly. So - living life to the fullest (Normalcy) and they sudden death.

Please stop stooping to insults Right! Stooping to insults is amateurish. We are brothers and sisters in Christ and are commanded to LOVE one another.

Jamdoc · Mar 23, 2021

iamlamad said:
This post seems to escape the reality of the written word in several directions. First, let's understand the 70th week timeline as shown in Revelation. It officially begins with the 7th seal as the opening with the opening salvo as the first trumpet judgment. Note also that John shows us the Day of His wrath starting (or being announced) at the 6th seal, showing us that the 70th week STARTS with God's wrath. After all, it is also the start of the Day of the Lord - that day that comes with God's fierce anger to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

The 70th week progresses through the first 6 trumpet judgments in the first half of the week, and the midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet. Therefore, John proves to those who study his book that the first half of the week is indeed the wrath of God: every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath for it happens inside the DAY of His wrath.

Then in the last half of the week, Rev. 12-16, the vials filled with His wrath are poured out, so John proves to us that the ENTIRE WEEK is God's wrath, all taking place INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 26 without a doubt is speaking of the rapture and the dead in Christ rising. The hiding places are of course in heaven.

Daniel 12:1-2 The resurrection is after the Great Tribulations. Why did you add the "s?" The bible doesn't add an "s". The question must be asked, WHICH "resurrection?" Of course the only correct answer is the resurrection that will include Daniel - the resurrection of the Old Testament saints - and that resurrection will come "on the last day" of the 70th week or at the 7th vial in chapter 16. It is indeed after the days of GT. However, this resurrection has nothing to do with the resurrection of the Dead in Christ who will rise up before any part of the 70th week. Notice that the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) is seen in heaven in chapter 7, before the WEEK begins in chapter 8. That makes John's vision of the raptured church PRETRIB.

So for the Great Tribulations we're to flee and hide in the wilderness, on Earth Who is WE? It is not the church, for John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, before the week is started. And Paul tells us the rapture will come JUST before wrath.

But when the Sun and Moon Darken An astute student of end times knows that the signs in the Sun and Moon come TWICE: first as a sign of the coming Day of the Lord, and then again over 7 years later as the sign of His coming to Armageddon.

The "puzzle" will only fit together with pretrib.

Well you seem to grasp the rapture taking place at the 6th seal at least, the one thing you're in error about is that that is before the 70th week,
The thing you are wrong on, is the timing of the Great Tribulation. It is not the full 70th week, it never has been.
Jesus said that the Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation which happens after the midpoint (Matthew 24:15-21). The Great Tribulation itself is shown in the 5th Seal in particular.
If you read Revelation in Chronological order totally that is a major source of error, in that it causes one to have duplicate events and also has Jesus taking the Kingdoms of the Earth as His Kingdom... and then handing over control to Satan as one of His first acts which.. should clue one in that there's something wrong.
Also..
The sun and moon don't darken in Revelation 19. Only Revelation 6.
Also..
Your position necessitates creating a caste system in Heaven itself of the Church being on top and "Tribulation Saints" and Old Testament saints being beneath you.

That's not what the bible teaches at all. Both the Apostles and the Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel are equally commemorated in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:12-14). As an aside I'm sort of curious as if one of the 12 foundations will be Matthias or Paul. I lean towards Paul because we're all very well aware of How mightily God used him, and Paul was chosen by Jesus directly, where Matthias was chosen by the other 11 Apostles.
Now National Israel does have some differences than the Church, there are other covenants that they have such as the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. Basically the promised land of Israel where they'll have the ultimate fulfillment of those promises in the Millennial Kingdom, but otherwise, there's not any sort of primacy. There's those in Christ, and those not in Christ. That's the only real separation (Galatians 3:28)

iamlamad · Mar 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Well you seem to grasp the rapture taking place at the 6th seal at least, the one thing you're in error about is that that is before the 70th week,
The thing you are wrong on, is the timing of the Great Tribulation. It is not the full 70th week, it never has been.
Jesus said that the Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation which happens after the midpoint (Matthew 24:15-21). The Great Tribulation itself is shown in the 5th Seal in particular.
If you read Revelation in Chronological order totally that is a major source of error, in that it causes one to have duplicate events and also has Jesus taking the Kingdoms of the Earth as His Kingdom... and then handing over control to Satan as one of His first acts which.. should clue one in that there's something wrong.
Also..
The sun and moon don't darken in Revelation 19. Only Revelation 6.
Also..
Your position necessitates creating a caste system in Heaven itself of the Church being on top and "Tribulation Saints" and Old Testament saints being beneath you.

That's not what the bible teaches at all. Both the Apostles and the Patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel are equally commemorated in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:12-14). As an aside I'm sort of curious as if one of the 12 foundations will be Matthias or Paul. I lean towards Paul because we're all very well aware of How mightily God used him, and Paul was chosen by Jesus directly, where Matthias was chosen by the other 11 Apostles.
Now National Israel does have some differences than the Church, there are other covenants that they have such as the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants. Basically the promised land of Israel where they'll have the ultimate fulfillment of those promises in the Millennial Kingdom, but otherwise, there's not any sort of primacy. There's those in Christ, and those not in Christ. That's the only real separation (Galatians 3:28)

Well you seem to grasp the rapture taking place at the 6th seal at least Thanks. I think the rapture must come before Wrath begins. Now some think wrath begins at the 6th seal and others think it begins with the first trumpet judgment. I can say for sure the rapture will be before chapter 7, for that is where John saw the church in heaven.

the one thing you're in error about is that that is before the 70th week, Then you simply don't know where the 70th week begins in Revelation. It starts with the 30 minutes of silence. Many people are in error thinking the 70th week begins with the first seal. John is at 32 AD and Jesus' ascension (5:6) when He sent the Holy Spirit down. The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel: around 32 AD. The start of wrath is the start of the 70th week and vice versa.

the Great Tribulation. It is not the full 70th week, it never has been. I have never said it was. But wrath is not "great tribulation" and vice versa. God's wrath will start with the Day of His wrath at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. There is proof of this.

The truth is, there will be "those days" of "great tribulation" (quotes from Matthew 24) that will begin some unknown time into the last half of the week. In Revelation that would be towards the end of chapter 14, AFTER God warns people not to take the mark.

Jesus said that the Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation which happens after the midpoint (Matthew 24:15-21) Agreed. But Jesus ALSO told those in Judea to flee when they SEE this abomination, and we find their fleeing start in 12:6, proving that the abomination is just before 12:6 in John's narrative. In truth, God put a marker on the midpoint abomination. It is the 7th trumpet, for only seconds after that, comes 12:6.

Next, let's really think about this: what and who will CAUSE the days of GT? It will be the Beast and False Prophet enforcing the worship of the image and the mark of allegiance. Note carefully, the Beast and false prophet SHOW UP in John's narrative in chapter 13! This is a midpoint chapter. Again take note: God warns people not to take the mark in chapter 14! Therefore, the Beast and False prophet have not yet STARTED enforcing the mark. This is chapter 14, not chapter 6!

The Great Tribulation itself is shown in the 5th Seal in particular. Sorry, my friend, but at the 5th seal, John is at the time of Stephen being stoned! You are 2000 years off. However, the 5th seal, being about church age martyrs, is ongoing and will extend to the time the rapture ENDS the church age. In other words, you seem to have swallowed the prewrath doctrine "hook, line, and sinker." And it is error from start to finish. John's timeline seems MILES from prewrath timeline.

John is in the church age until the 6th seal, then begins the Day of the Lord and the 70th week (then start together) in chapter 8, then arrives at the midpoint in chapter 11, then comes the war in heaven in chapter 12, and the start of the kingdom of the Beast and False Prophet in chapter 13, then midpoint warnings in chapter 14, then the days of GT starting in chapter 15 as the beheaded begin to show up in heaven, then chapter 16 where God finishes the 70th week with the vials.

Then chapters 17 & 18 summarize the destruction of the kingdom of the Beast and the city of Jerusalem as Israel comes under attack from it seems every army in the world. Finally, JESUS COMES in chapter 19, to Armageddon.

In short, there is NO NEED to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory: it is in perfect order.

If you read Revelation in Chronological order totally that is a major source of error Let me rewrite:

If you don't read Revelation in Chronological order and try to rearrange, that will be a major source of error.

Perhaps you can start a thread on this so we can discuss it by itself.

Why does it cause you to doubt that Jesus turns the earth over to Satan for 3.5 years? If the earth is HIS, does He not have the right to delegate? It is in his purpose and plans. The world WANTS a world without God, so God will give them exactly what it is they THINK they WANT: God will turn His back, so to speak, for 3.5 years. Don't allow human reasoning to change what John wrote!

Did you not read the PURPOSE of the 70th week?

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter, crush, break in pieces] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Who actually will do this shattering? Of course the Devil, using the Beast and False Prophet.

The sun and moon don't darken in Revelation 19. This is a true statement, but the thought behind it is error. If we follow the timeline of the 70th week, the 6th seal cosmic events will happen as a sign of the start of the DAY. But then 7 years later, the cosmic signs will be seen again, as the sign of HIS COMING. But these signs are DIFFERENT.

The signs for the coming Day of the Lord will be eclipses. The sign for His coming will be total darkness. God did not show this Matthew 24:29 "after the tribulation" sign to John so John did not see it or write it. But since we KNOW it will precede His coming, we know it will happen in the TIMING of Rev. 19.

Your position necessitates creating a caste system in Heaven itself of the Church being on top and "Tribulation Saints" and Old Testament saints being beneath you.
How can this be when both the Old and New testament saints will be seated on thrones judging during the millennial reign of Christ? Begin caught up first does not mean the church will be over other saints. I see no "caste" system.

As an aside I'm sort of curious as if one of the 12 foundations will be Matthias or Paul. At least two people I know of have been there and READ the names in order:

Peter
Paul
James
John

in that order. I believe their testimony.

Jamdoc · Mar 25, 2021

iamlamad said:
Well you seem to grasp the rapture taking place at the 6th seal at least Thanks. I think the rapture must come before Wrath begins. Now some think wrath begins at the 6th seal and others think it begins with the first trumpet judgment. I can say for sure the rapture will be before chapter 7, for that is where John saw the church in heaven.

the one thing you're in error about is that that is before the 70th week, Then you simply don't know where the 70th week begins in Revelation. It starts with the 30 minutes of silence. Many people are in error thinking the 70th week begins with the first seal. John is at 32 AD and Jesus' ascension (5:6) when He sent the Holy Spirit down. The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel: around 32 AD. The start of wrath is the start of the 70th week and vice versa.

the Great Tribulation. It is not the full 70th week, it never has been. I have never said it was. But wrath is not "great tribulation" and vice versa. God's wrath will start with the Day of His wrath at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. There is proof of this.

The truth is, there will be "those days" of "great tribulation" (quotes from Matthew 24) that will begin some unknown time into the last half of the week. In Revelation that would be towards the end of chapter 14, AFTER God warns people not to take the mark.

Jesus said that the Great Tribulation only begins after the Abomination of Desolation which happens after the midpoint (Matthew 24:15-21) Agreed. But Jesus ALSO told those in Judea to flee when they SEE this abomination, and we find their fleeing start in 12:6, proving that the abomination is just before 12:6 in John's narrative. In truth, God put a marker on the midpoint abomination. It is the 7th trumpet, for only seconds after that, comes 12:6.

Next, let's really think about this: what and who will CAUSE the days of GT? It will be the Beast and False Prophet enforcing the worship of the image and the mark of allegiance. Note carefully, the Beast and false prophet SHOW UP in John's narrative in chapter 13! This is a midpoint chapter. Again take note: God warns people not to take the mark in chapter 14! Therefore, the Beast and False prophet have not yet STARTED enforcing the mark. This is chapter 14, not chapter 6!

The Great Tribulation itself is shown in the 5th Seal in particular. Sorry, my friend, but at the 5th seal, John is at the time of Stephen being stoned! You are 2000 years off. However, the 5th seal, being about church age martyrs, is ongoing and will extend to the time the rapture ENDS the church age. In other words, you seem to have swallowed the prewrath doctrine "hook, line, and sinker." And it is error from start to finish. John's timeline seems MILES from prewrath timeline.

John is in the church age until the 6th seal, then begins the Day of the Lord and the 70th week (then start together) in chapter 8, then arrives at the midpoint in chapter 11, then comes the war in heaven in chapter 12, and the start of the kingdom of the Beast and False Prophet in chapter 13, then midpoint warnings in chapter 14, then the days of GT starting in chapter 15 as the beheaded begin to show up in heaven, then chapter 16 where God finishes the 70th week with the vials.

Then chapters 17 & 18 summarize the destruction of the kingdom of the Beast and the city of Jerusalem as Israel comes under attack from it seems every army in the world. Finally, JESUS COMES in chapter 19, to Armageddon.

In short, there is NO NEED to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory: it is in perfect order.

If you read Revelation in Chronological order totally that is a major source of error Let me rewrite:

If you don't read Revelation in Chronological order and try to rearrange, that will be a major source of error.

Perhaps you can start a thread on this so we can discuss it by itself.

Why does it cause you to doubt that Jesus turns the earth over to Satan for 3.5 years? If the earth is HIS, does He not have the right to delegate? It is in his purpose and plans. The world WANTS a world without God, so God will give them exactly what it is they THINK they WANT: God will turn His back, so to speak, for 3.5 years. Don't allow human reasoning to change what John wrote!

Did you not read the PURPOSE of the 70th week?

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter [shatter, crush, break in pieces] the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Who actually will do this shattering? Of course the Devil, using the Beast and False Prophet.

The sun and moon don't darken in Revelation 19. This is a true statement, but the thought behind it is error. If we follow the timeline of the 70th week, the 6th seal cosmic events will happen as a sign of the start of the DAY. But then 7 years later, the cosmic signs will be seen again, as the sign of HIS COMING. But these signs are DIFFERENT.

The signs for the coming Day of the Lord will be eclipses. The sign for His coming will be total darkness. God did not show this Matthew 24:29 "after the tribulation" sign to John so John did not see it or write it. But since we KNOW it will precede His coming, we know it will happen in the TIMING of Rev. 19.

Your position necessitates creating a caste system in Heaven itself of the Church being on top and "Tribulation Saints" and Old Testament saints being beneath you.
How can this be when both the Old and New testament saints will be seated on thrones judging during the millennial reign of Christ? Begin caught up first does not mean the church will be over other saints. I see no "caste" system.

As an aside I'm sort of curious as if one of the 12 foundations will be Matthias or Paul. At least two people I know of have been there and READ the names in order:

Peter
Paul
James
John

in that order. I believe their testimony.

1 Verse shows your timing to be in error.
Revelation 7:14, context is this is as we both agree, the Church in Heaven after the rapture.

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So the Great Tribulation happened prior to this rapture.
That is why the 5th seal stands out as the Great Tribulation to me.
if you ditch the preterist/historicist interpretation of the seals, you'll see that you're not actually pre trib, you're pre wrath.

As for Revelation Chronology.
Revelation 10:7

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The 7th trumpet is the final event. It's not something that happens in the middle of the 70th week as many people read it. It's the end, just before Armageddon.

Next up Revelation 11:15

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

and if you interpret the entire book as being in Chronological order you then have Revelation 13:2

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

So, either Jesus' "for ever and ever" reign isn't very long, because He gives rulership BACK to Satan for Satan to give to the beast, or it's not in Chronological order.
I'm gonna go with not in Chronological order because Jesus isn't going to retake the earth, and then give it back to Satan right away. He's going to retake the earth, and then bind Satan for 1000 years, turn him loose on probation and watch him fail and rebel yet again, and then be done with him forever. But in that season Satan does not have rulership, Jesus does.

Right now, Satan has rulership of the Earth, God has sovereignty, but He has delegated authority to Satan and other angels.
At the 7th Trumpet, that is over forever.

Timtofly · Mar 25, 2021

Jamdoc said:
1 Verse shows your timing to be in error.
Revelation 7:14, context is this is as we both agree, the Church in Heaven after the rapture.

So the Great Tribulation happened prior to this rapture.
That is why the 5th seal stands out as the Great Tribulation to me.
if you ditch the preterist/historicist interpretation of the seals, you'll see that you're not actually pre trib, you're pre wrath.

As for Revelation Chronology.
Revelation 10:7

The 7th trumpet is the final event. It's not something that happens in the middle of the 70th week as many people read it. It's the end, just before Armageddon.

Next up Revelation 11:15

and if you interpret the entire book as being in Chronological order you then have Revelation 13:2

So, either Jesus' "for ever and ever" reign isn't very long, because He gives rulership BACK to Satan for Satan to give to the beast, or it's not in Chronological order.
I'm gonna go with not in Chronological order because Jesus isn't going to retake the earth, and then give it back to Satan right away. He's going to retake the earth, and then bind Satan for 1000 years, turn him loose on probation and watch him fail and rebel yet again, and then be done with him forever. But in that season Satan does not have rulership, Jesus does.

Right now, Satan has rulership of the Earth, God has sovereignty, but He has delegated authority to Satan and other angels.
At the 7th Trumpet, that is over forever.

That is because no one agrees on the definition of great tribulation and the tribulation of those days. The Great Tribulation is the last 1991 years. It is great because of the length and generational attribute of greatness. Tribulation of those days is just the last generation.

What people call the GT or God's Wrath is not the Great Tribulation or the tribulation of those days. It is this:

21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again!
22 Indeed, if the length of this time had not been limited, no one would survive; but for the sake of those who have been chosen, its length will be limited.

John shows us this is the period of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. It is the Second Coming earthly ministry of Christ. He will be removing the sheep and goats, and the wheat and the tares. This is totally separate from the last 3.5 days after Satan's 42 months when the 7 vials of God's Wrath is poured out on to Satan's followers along with the image and the FP.

Those martyred are from the last 1991 years since Stephen, but the Seal is not about their tribulation nor the time they were martyred. It is about the glorification of the church itself. Paul's emphasis was on the rapture, those alive and remain. John's emphasis is in Paradise under the alter, the temple of God, all those martyred since Stephen. The 5th Seal is about the church being glorified and complete, not about tribulation or death. The dead in Christ are alive in Paradise, not about how they got there. The vast majority may have been martyred, but John was not singling out the martyrs themselves. Talk about taking a literal meaning at the wrong point. Jesus did the same thing when He addressed the Jewish religious leaders. He blamed them for the blood of those martyred from Abel to Zachariah the priest. The church is more than martyrs. Many church members including Abraham died from old age, and were not martyred. God's Word is not excluding them.

There is a difference between Tribulation and Judgment and the final Wrath of God poured out on sin and sinners. Even Revelation 14 is the winepress of God's Wrath at the end of the 7th Trumpet if there is no 42 months given to Satan. The 7th Trumpet is the celebration of the final harvest and the total destruction of Adam's sinful flesh as God promised. That climactic ending of all eschatology. Jesus claims that He will be here prior to that Wrath, but He will be here during the unprecedented tribulation, never seen before nor will again. The Trumpets and Thunders are the works of the angels that Jesus claims in many verses come with Him at His Second Coming. If Jesus brings the angels with Him, that means Jesus Himself is here on earth during that time. If Christ is here on earth for months and even years, that is the Second Coming. The Second Coming is not at Armageddon after God's Wrath has already been poured out. Armageddon is still included in the sound of the 7th Trumpet, because this week of days known as the 7th Trumpet was interrupted mid week by Satan's 42 months. The time of desolation was allowed, but did not replace the 7th Trumpet. It is the woe that is incorporated into the 7th Trumpet. Daniel's 70th week cannot end until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

iamlamad · Mar 25, 2021

Jamdoc said:
1 Verse shows your timing to be in error.
Revelation 7:14, context is this is as we both agree, the Church in Heaven after the rapture.

So the Great Tribulation happened prior to this rapture.
That is why the 5th seal stands out as the Great Tribulation to me.
if you ditch the preterist/historicist interpretation of the seals, you'll see that you're not actually pre trib, you're pre wrath.

As for Revelation Chronology.
Revelation 10:7

The 7th trumpet is the final event. It's not something that happens in the middle of the 70th week as many people read it. It's the end, just before Armageddon.

Next up Revelation 11:15

and if you interpret the entire book as being in Chronological order you then have Revelation 13:2

So, either Jesus' "for ever and ever" reign isn't very long, because He gives rulership BACK to Satan for Satan to give to the beast, or it's not in Chronological order.
I'm gonna go with not in Chronological order because Jesus isn't going to retake the earth, and then give it back to Satan right away. He's going to retake the earth, and then bind Satan for 1000 years, turn him loose on probation and watch him fail and rebel yet again, and then be done with him forever. But in that season Satan does not have rulership, Jesus does.

Right now, Satan has rulership of the Earth, God has sovereignty, but He has delegated authority to Satan and other angels.
At the 7th Trumpet, that is over forever.

I don't think John was thinking of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Most of the commentators suggest that the "great tribulation" in chapter 7 is speaking of all the days of tribulation over the many years of the church age. I agree with them. Why? Because as I wrote, John does not get to the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of until much later in his narrative. I find no other examples anywhere in his book of flashbacks of flash-forwards or any other kind of mix-up of his chronology.

Jesus isn't going to retake the earth, and then give it back to Satan right away. That is human reasoning that does not follow the text. I would much rather follow the text as written.

The 7th trumpet is the final event. Then what will you do with the rest of John's narrative? For example, Michael will use the 7th trumpet as his signal to go after Satan, so the war in heaven will follow the 7th trumpet. We also see that the fleeing into the wilderness follows the 7th trumpet, and the fleeing will last 1260 more days. This statement will cause more problems than it might solve. In truth, the 7th vial is the final event of the 70th week - just as John wrote it.

When one tries to rearrange, it truly opens the proverbial "can of worms." Everyone can then choose how to rearrange, and everyone has a different theory of how it should be. I think it is much wiser to believe God knew in advance the order things will happen, and caused John to write in that order.

However, if you feel better rearranging, you have that freedom. Let's get together when we arrive there, and see who was closest.

Jamdoc · Mar 25, 2021

iamlamad said:
I don't think John was thinking of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. Most of the commentators suggest that the "great tribulation" in chapter 7 is speaking of all the days of tribulation over the many years of the church age. I agree with them. Why? Because as I wrote, John does not get to the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of until much later in his narrative. I find no other examples anywhere in his book of flashbacks of flash-forwards or any other kind of mix-up of his chronology.

Jesus isn't going to retake the earth, and then give it back to Satan right away. That is human reasoning that does not follow the text. I would much rather follow the text as written.

The 7th trumpet is the final event. Then what will you do with the rest of John's narrative? For example, Michael will use the 7th trumpet as his signal to go after Satan, so the war in heaven will follow the 7th trumpet. We also see that the fleeing into the wilderness follows the 7th trumpet, and the fleeing will last 1260 more days. This statement will cause more problems than it might solve. In truth, the 7th vial is the final event of the 70th week - just as John wrote it.

When one tries to rearrange, it truly opens the proverbial "can of worms." Everyone can then choose how to rearrange, and everyone has a different theory of how it should be. I think it is much wiser to believe God knew in advance the order things will happen, and caused John to write in that order.

However, if you feel better rearranging, you have that freedom. Let's get together when we arrive there, and see who was closest.

The duplications of events, and angel saying that the 7th trumpet is the finishing of the mystery of God in Revelation 10, clues me that there are 2 duplicate narratives. not one single Narrative.
and the reason for that is because through the entire bible you need 2 witnesses to establish the truth.
Revelation is 2 witnesses, 2 narratives of the same time period that both show the Great Tribulation, the 2nd coming in the clouds, the rapture, the wrath of God, and Jesus reclaiming the Earth as His Kingdom.

If it was Chronological, one of Jesus' first acts as King of the physical Earth would be giving power back to Satan for Satan to persecute the saints.

TribulationSigns · Mar 25, 2021

Okay....(patting on your back).

rom8:38 · Mar 25, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Nope, you're in error.
#1. While we all can read and profit from what Paul wrote, Paul's principle purpose was to communicate to the Corinthians. Revelation wouldn't be written for decades, so it is not a reference to a book that hasn't been written yet when we're communicating to the Corinthians who never read that book.
#2. It is also inconsistent with God not appointing us to His wrath (Isaiah 26:19-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The trumpets are not "tribulation" they are God's wrath.
#3. It doesn't explain the 6th seal or the sudden appearance of saints in bodies (holding objects in their hands) in Heaven in Revelation 7. 6th seal rapture does and fits everything else. If we were going to be waiting until God dumped His wrath on His own people for a bare minimum of 5 months, Jesus would have given signs of water turning to blood, and all the grass burning up as signs before His coming. He doesn't. Your puzzle pieces don't fit, 6th seal does (showing that there is tribulation before His coming, but none of the events of the 7 trumpets or vials. Jesus gives ALL of the signs of the first 5 seals in Matthew 24, that's why Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 parallel so well).

You're missing that Revelation 6 goes through the Olivet Discourse point for point.
Revelation 7 shows the results of Matthew 24:31.

It's like you didn't read the first part of my post at all, yes I'm aware of what 2 means in the bible which is why I said it was a core theme that there are 2 witnesses. I don't build doctrine off a single verse, but if there are 2 verses that say the same thing, and they agree with each other, then I know that that interpretation is true.

That is why I interpret Revelation as 2 witnesses as narratives, rather than jumping around randomly as some, or totally in chronological order as some.
The reason why I do that is because of duplicated details such as the 144000, Jesus appearing on the clouds twice, 2 judgements involving the River Euphrates that seem dependent on each other, and when you put them together you get 2 narratives of Tribulation, followed by Jesus appearing on the clouds, the rapture/saints in heaven, followed by the wrath of God followed by final judgement. They are consistently in the same order. Because the "two witnesses" of these two narratives agree with each other, to me, it establishes the truth of the order in which these events will play out.

Placing the rapture at the 7th trumpet judgement, is actually basing a doctrine off a single verse, without a corroborating witness, interestingly enough.
The rest of your support is based on a misinterpretation of what constitutes tribulation (and ignoring that God has not appointed us to wrath and that we will be invited to hide from the indignation).

as for the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 and your symbolic interpretation, it could be true, but if you go back to the track record:

the Babylonian captivity was literally 70 years
Jesus was literally born of a virgin
Jesus literally rode into Jerusalem on a donkey
Jesus was literally betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
Jesus was literally killed by being pierced through the hands and feet, and died without his bones being broken
His garments were literally contested over by drawing lots
He was killed at the midpoint of the 69th "set of 7" from Daniel's 70 weeks.. literally.

So be open to a literal fulfillment of 2 actual men with power over fire and water. Because literal fulfillment has happened in the past, and can happen again in the future.

Hello Jamdoc, glad you are still fleshing this out: I'd like to contribute 2 posts, both of which argue for 3 raptures. Your thoughts?:

First post:

The ‘seals’ were an overview of the wrath of God, coming for those that rebel against Him. The seventh seal was an introductory vision about the coming ‘judgments of the trumpets,’ which describe that actual advent of partial disasters that are coming (‘partial,’ because God is still trying to get as many people to come to repentance and salvation as possible.

The first trumpet tells of a disaster whereupon one third of the earth is burned because of heavenly-induced hail, fire and blood. The second depicts a burning mountain cast into the sea – killing one third of all marine life and ocean-going vessels and defiling the sea with blood. (Some have interpreted the first and the second trumpets as extreme volcanic destruction.)

The third suggests a meteor strike which pollutes one third of the world’s fresh water supply. (Some have interpreted this to be collateral damage from warfare.) The fourth calls for the loss of light from a third of the sun, moon and stars – resulting in utter darkness for a third of a day and a night. (Foretold by the prophet Amos – 8:9.)

After the fifth trumpet blows, John says:

…I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. Rv. 9:1 ESV

Some interpret this to represent a ‘good angel,’ others say it corroborates with Jesus, when He described the star as Satan being can out of heaven. (Lk. 10:18)

When the pit is opened, locusts resembling horses dressed for battle, having faces like men, long hair, teeth like lions, breastplates of iron, tails like scorpions and wings that roar, are released. Some have interpreted the locusts to being demons, others see them as rebel angels that sided with Satan, and finally there are those who understand them to be one and the same.

However, demonic activity has been going on ever since Satan was cast from heaven; but the Bible tells us that the rebel angels have been imprisoned since that time. (Jude 6)

Nevertheless, these rebel angels / demons / locusts are allowed to torment the unbelievers (not possessing the seal of God on them) with a vicious sting for 5 months. As a side note, these demons are commanded to refrain from harming any plant life; thus, these judgments are not sequential but are somewhat simultaneous in their occurrence.

When the sixth trumpet sounds, four ‘bound’ angels (we are not told why they are shackled, but it suggests that they are malevolent) are unbound, so they may lead a demonic army of two hundred million to kill a third of mankind. This represents an army ‘from the east,’ separate from the one from the north that attempted to defeat Israel but was decimated by God. Some interpreters deduce that this eastern army comes from Asia, as it is the only region that could muster one of this size.

They too are on the march to Israel, but their intent is to fight the final battle of Armageddon. It is believed that this army kills a third of mankind while on that march.

The sixth trumpet is mankind’s last warning! There will be no salvation made available to anyone once the seventh trumpet sounds. Still, there will be hard-hearted hold-outs:

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent even then of the works of their hands, so as to cease worshiping and paying homage to the demons and idols…and they did not repent of their murders nor their sorceries (drugs, intoxications) nor of their sexual immorality or of their thefts. Rv. 9:20, 21. AMP

Just as there was a ‘heavenly interlude’ just prior to the unveiling of the seventh seal, there is a second interlude that precedes the sounding of the seventh trumpet. John’s vision shifts earthward, whereupon he sees a great angel (who some interpret to be Christ), holding a scroll and calls out heavenward, declaring an oath to God:

…there would be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Rv. 10:6, 7. NASB

Thus, the culmination of everything that God has been revealing throughout history, will begin to manifest at that sounding of the seventh trumpet.

The angel tells John that he must continue to preach the gospel; and then it assigns him a new task:

Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God, and the alter and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.” Rv. 11:1, 2. ESV

Forty-two months (3 1/2 years – according to the Jewish calendar of 30-day months) represents the second half of the tribulation period. The measuring rod is generally interpreted to symbolize God’s protection. The temple is seen by some to represent the body of Christ, and the ’trampling of the holy city’ being the persecutions set against that body during the tribulations.

Others interpret this scripture to refer to a literal ‘new temple’ that will be built in Jerusalem during the first half of the tribulations – after God delivers Israel from the ‘army of the north,’ which leads to Israel accepting Christ as their Messiah. These interpreters look to Ezek. 4:11 as the foundation of this interpretation.

Continuing on in this second interlude, Jesus brings additional revelation:

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouths and consumes their foes…They have the power…to strike the earth with every kind of plague… Rv. 11:3 – 6. ESV

The wearing of sackcloth by the witnesses, signify a last call to the unbelievers to repent. Some interpret the witnesses as symbolic of the ‘witnessing church,’ either during the present age or in the last half of the tribulations; and others see them as literal prophets of great power, but their identities cannot be resolved with certainty.

Jesus continues:

“And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt where there Lord was crucified.” Rv. 11:7, 8. ESV

Thus, we see that the two witnesses have been preaching in Jerusalem; but in the time of the second half of the tribulations, the conditions have degenerated so badly that it is now compared with an ancient city renowned for moral degradation and with a country infamous for its idolatry. We are also told that when the witnesses’ call for repentance is at an end, they are attacked by Satan’s ‘beast.’

And then:

For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. Rv. 11:9, 10. ESV

So, the world throws a party because these meddlesome prophets had been putting a damper on their immoral and pagan frenzy. Yet, there is a big surprise coming:

But after three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear and panic fell on those who were watching them. And the two witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Rv. 11:11, 12. AMP

In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. in the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rv. 11:13 NKJV

The resurrection of the two witnesses marks the end of the tribulations. All chances for repentance and salvation are no longer available for the unbelievers.

Those who interpret the two witnesses as symbolic for the witnessing church, see their resurrection as symbolism for a ‘post-tribulation’ rapture of the martyred church – those who converted during the tribulations.

The interlude concludes, and the seventh trumpet is about to sound…

rom8:38 · Mar 25, 2021

Second post:

Still in the mid-tribulation period, John’s vision shifts heavenward:

Then I looked, and behold the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads…And they sang a new song before the throne before the living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. Rv. 14:1 & 3. NASB

Some interpret this group to be the remnant of the Jews in Israel who finally accept Jesus as their Messiah. Thus, they were subsequently sealed in the name of God and His Son. We see that they are now with Jesus in heaven. This event leads many interpreters to conclude that it is one of three ‘raptures’ – the other two being for the church and for the ‘great multitude.’ These ‘saved’ Jews are now able to sing a new song that only the redeemed can sing.

Still in the mid-tribulation time period, John’s vision shifts earthward again:

Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to preach to the inhabitants of the earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God [with awe and reverence], and give Him glory [and honor and praise in worship], because the hour of His judgment has come…” Rv. 14:6, 7. AMP

Mind you, this is happening before God’s final judgments are thrust upon the earth. If you adhere to the ‘rapture’ concept, you see that God is still reaching out in love to His lost creations. The church has risen to heaven and the remnant of Israel has as well. Still, God is pleading with the doubters left behind, through an angel, telling them that they must recognize Him as the only true God, and turn away from Satan and his minions.

John’s vision remains focused on the earth, but it now moves forward in time to the beginning of the second half of the tribulations:

Then another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her immorality [corrupting them with idolatry].” Rv. 14:8 AMP

‘Babylon’ is the world’s ‘false religion system” – a product of the devil himself. God is letting the stragglers know that the ultimate outcome for Satan and his designs, is one of defeat. So, in HIs great mercy, God is sending these holdouts a stern warning about sidling up with the fire and brimstone crew.

John’s vision is still fixed upon the earth, but it shifts backwards in time to the mid-tribulations period once more:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice,”If anyone worships the beast and its images and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will bring the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength…and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur…forever and ever…” Rv. 14:9 – 11. ESV

It is certain that the outcome for lining up with the devil is not a good one. Also, as much as some people don’t want to believe in a literal hell, this scripture sure makes a strong case for one. So, what’s happening here is that God is telling them that He doesn’t want them to share in Satan’s final misfortune:

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice in heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rv. 14:12, 13. ESV

God is calling upon His children who accepted Him through Christ, during the first half of the tribulation period – encouraging them to stand firm in their faith, because their redemption is guaranteed. He is also comforting those whose martyrdom is imminent, assuring them that they will be translated into His arms.

John’s vision then shifts both heavenward and forward in time to the end of the tribulations:

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle…the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Rv. 14:14 – 17 & 19. NKJV

And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. Rv. 14:20 NASB

What we see first is Jesus, reaping the harvest of the surviving children of God who’ve escaped being martyred. (Mt. 13:24 – 33.) Secondly, we view an angel gathering the unbelievers.

This is actually a preview of the time that follows Armageddon – the last battle where Christ and His army will stand again the army of the ‘east’ and army of the Antichrist. There will be such destruction that it will leave a swath of blood from Satan’s armies that is 200 miles long and 4 feet deep.

The apostle’s vision remains focused heavenward, but shifts backwards to the time of the second half of the tribulations:

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have victory over the beast. over his image, and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. And they sang the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb… Rv. 15:1 – 3. NKJV

God is gathering these seven angels to descend upon the earth to deliver His final judgments upon the unbelievers. But before He unleashes them, God ‘raptures’ up the ‘great multitude,’ the people from all over the world who came to Christ during the tribulations. This must have taken place after the mid-tribulations period, because we can see that they’ve already faced the devil and his minions and managed to cling to their faith. And when they get to heaven, they are jubilant…

Jamdoc · Mar 25, 2021

rom8:38 said:
Hello Jamdoc, glad you are still fleshing this out: I'd like to contribute 2 posts, both of which argue for 3 raptures. Your thoughts?:

First post:

The ‘seals’ were an overview of the wrath of God, coming for those that rebel against Him. The seventh seal was an introductory vision about the coming ‘judgments of the trumpets,’ which describe that actual advent of partial disasters that are coming (‘partial,’ because God is still trying to get as many people to come to repentance and salvation as possible.

I can't see it that way because the first 5 seals are not things that God does aside from God pulling away the protection that prevents us from doing these things to ourselves. The seals are preventing these things from happening right now in other words. But the trumpets and vials are not done by men those are done by God. These are forces of nature or the supernatural that no man can control.
One of the things that people seem to misunderstand is the 3rd seal. They think famine, and think that it could be an act of God that makes food scarce.
But the reality is, it's not really famine that the 3rd seal represents, not a natural one anyway. It is caused by a deliberate economic collapse, people manipulating the economy into crashing for their own benefit. That's why the 3rd seal is scales rather than something like a scythe for harvesting. That's why the thing that is overheard is high PRICES for things, not that those things are unavailable. Considering this is also after peace is taken from the world, that also leads to famine as people are fighting instead of growing crops and raising livestock. But it is caused by men, God simply allows it.

The first trumpet tells of a disaster whereupon one third of the earth is burned because of heavenly-induced hail, fire and blood. The second depicts a burning mountain cast into the sea – killing one third of all marine life and ocean-going vessels and defiling the sea with blood. (Some have interpreted the first and the second trumpets as extreme volcanic destruction.)

The third suggests a meteor strike which pollutes one third of the world’s fresh water supply. (Some have interpreted this to be collateral damage from warfare.) The fourth calls for the loss of light from a third of the sun, moon and stars – resulting in utter darkness for a third of a day and a night. (Foretold by the prophet Amos – 8:9.)

After the fifth trumpet blows, John says:

…I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. Rv. 9:1 ESV

Some interpret this to represent a ‘good angel,’ others say it corroborates with Jesus, when He described the star as Satan being can out of heaven. (Lk. 10:18)

Well, considering the name is a Pagan Greek god (Apollo) I'd say it's not Jesus or Satan but rather one of the principalities, so an Angel that God gave control of a particular region of the world, who fell from grace and is now a demon. Psalm 82 talks about the judgement of these beings, Daniel 10 refers to one that Gabriel calls the "Prince of Persia". The pagan gods are very much real beings, they are angels who God gave control of the Earth to after the fall of Man who was originally to have dominion. The chief god of each pagan religion in the world might be Satan (Jesus refers to Pergamos as the throne of Satan, but there was a throne of Zeus in a temple built there physically), but other gods in those religions would be other angels that God delegated authority to, that received worship for themselves and ruled wickedly. So Apollo would be one of those, a demon.

When the pit is opened, locusts resembling horses dressed for battle, having faces like men, long hair, teeth like lions, breastplates of iron, tails like scorpions and wings that roar, are released. Some have interpreted the locusts to being demons, others see them as rebel angels that sided with Satan, and finally there are those who understand them to be one and the same.

However, demonic activity has been going on ever since Satan was cast from heaven; but the Bible tells us that the rebel angels have been imprisoned since that time. (Jude 6)

Nevertheless, these rebel angels / demons / locusts are allowed to torment the unbelievers (not possessing the seal of God on them) with a vicious sting for 5 months. As a side note, these demons are commanded to refrain from harming any plant life; thus, these judgments are not sequential but are somewhat simultaneous in their occurrence.

I think the difference is after the 5th seal, they will be able to manifest physically, and physically cause harm to people.

When the sixth trumpet sounds, four ‘bound’ angels (we are not told why they are shackled, but it suggests that they are malevolent) are unbound, so they may lead a demonic army of two hundred million to kill a third of mankind. This represents an army ‘from the east,’ separate from the one from the north that attempted to defeat Israel but was decimated by God. Some interpreters deduce that this eastern army comes from Asia, as it is the only region that could muster one of this size.

They too are on the march to Israel, but their intent is to fight the final battle of Armageddon. It is believed that this army kills a third of mankind while on that march.

The 6th trumpet and 6th vial have an interesting way of seeming to interact with each other. The 6th trumpet is the army. The 6th vial is what leads them and clears the way for them to go to Israel. I believe that while they are separate, they are interconnected. Without the 6th trumpet, the 6th vial has no teeth, and without the 6th vial, the army in the 7th trumpet would take longer to get to Israel, having to build bridges, and really having no leadership driving them to Israel, but if the rivers are dried up and the way is kind of cleared for them, they can go straight through, and coming from China, killing a lot of their own citizens, and then through India, 2 of the most populated nations in the world, just killing everyone along the way.. yeah... it could kill a lot of people.

The sixth trumpet is mankind’s last warning! There will be no salvation made available to anyone once the seventh trumpet sounds. Still, there will be hard-hearted hold-outs:

The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent even then of the works of their hands, so as to cease worshiping and paying homage to the demons and idols…and they did not repent of their murders nor their sorceries (drugs, intoxications) nor of their sexual immorality or of their thefts. Rv. 9:20, 21. AMP

Just as there was a ‘heavenly interlude’ just prior to the unveiling of the seventh seal, there is a second interlude that precedes the sounding of the seventh trumpet. John’s vision shifts earthward, whereupon he sees a great angel (who some interpret to be Christ), holding a scroll and calls out heavenward, declaring an oath to God:

…there would be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Rv. 10:6, 7. NASB

Thus, the culmination of everything that God has been revealing throughout history, will begin to manifest at that sounding of the seventh trumpet.

The angel tells John that he must continue to preach the gospel; and then it assigns him a new task:

Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God, and the alter and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.” Rv. 11:1, 2. ESV

Forty-two months (3 1/2 years – according to the Jewish calendar of 30-day months) represents the second half of the tribulation period. The measuring rod is generally interpreted to symbolize God’s protection. The temple is seen by some to represent the body of Christ, and the ’trampling of the holy city’ being the persecutions set against that body during the tribulations.

Others interpret this scripture to refer to a literal ‘new temple’ that will be built in Jerusalem during the first half of the tribulations – after God delivers Israel from the ‘army of the north,’ which leads to Israel accepting Christ as their Messiah. These interpreters look to Ezek. 4:11 as the foundation of this interpretation.

Continuing on in this second interlude, Jesus brings additional revelation:

“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouths and consumes their foes…They have the power…to strike the earth with every kind of plague… Rv. 11:3 – 6. ESV

The wearing of sackcloth by the witnesses, signify a last call to the unbelievers to repent. Some interpret the witnesses as symbolic of the ‘witnessing church,’ either during the present age or in the last half of the tribulations; and others see them as literal prophets of great power, but their identities cannot be resolved with certainty.

Jesus continues:

“And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt where there Lord was crucified.” Rv. 11:7, 8. ESV

Thus, we see that the two witnesses have been preaching in Jerusalem; but in the time of the second half of the tribulations, the conditions have degenerated so badly that it is now compared with an ancient city renowned for moral degradation and with a country infamous for its idolatry. We are also told that when the witnesses’ call for repentance is at an end, they are attacked by Satan’s ‘beast.’

And then:

For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. Rv. 11:9, 10. ESV

So, the world throws a party because these meddlesome prophets had been putting a damper on their immoral and pagan frenzy. Yet, there is a big surprise coming:

But after three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear and panic fell on those who were watching them. And the two witnesses heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they ascended into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Rv. 11:11, 12. AMP

In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. in the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. Rv. 11:13 NKJV

The resurrection of the two witnesses marks the end of the tribulations. All chances for repentance and salvation are no longer available for the unbelievers.

Those who interpret the two witnesses as symbolic for the witnessing church, see their resurrection as symbolism for a ‘post-tribulation’ rapture of the martyred church – those who converted during the tribulations.

The interlude concludes, and the seventh trumpet is about to sound…

Because the first part of Revelation 11 does seem to not be taking place in Chronological order, I don't know when it is, but when the 2 witnesses are resurrected and raptured and there's the earthquake, it's possibly at the 6th seal.
Either way, that remnant who "gave glory to the God of heaven" fits most old testament prophetic scripture in that there is a remnant of Israel, all that survive, that will be saved. So I think that while for gentiles there is no repentance, as you're saying (and I believe there won't be repentence during any of the trumpets or vials outside of maybe israel.. after the 6th seal there's no more talk about any saints, outside of the two witnesses and the remnant giving glory to God after the earthquake when they're resurrected). Similarly there's no mention of any saints on earth after Revelation 14. Only in heaven.
one of the other clues to me that it is a parallel rather than continuous narrative.

iamlamad · Mar 25, 2021

Jamdoc said:
The duplications of events, and angel saying that the 7th trumpet is the finishing of the mystery of God in Revelation 10, clues me that there are 2 duplicate narratives. not one single Narrative.
and the reason for that is because through the entire bible you need 2 witnesses to establish the truth.
Revelation is 2 witnesses, 2 narratives of the same time period that both show the Great Tribulation, the 2nd coming in the clouds, the rapture, the wrath of God, and Jesus reclaiming the Earth as His Kingdom.

If it was Chronological, one of Jesus' first acts as King of the physical Earth would be giving power back to Satan for Satan to persecute the saints.

The duplication of events I don't find any. Please show us.

an angel saying that the 7th trumpet is the finishing of the mystery of God This "mystery" was not explained. If we look ahead and see what happens, it might explain the meaning of the "mystery." So what happens? Satan looses his position as the spiritual ruler of the world, an the kingdoms are given back to Jesus Christ. The "mystery" then may well be how Satan BECAME the god of this world. I don't see this having anything to do with "the end." I see John continuing on with chapters 12 through 16 to finish the week.

because through the entire bible you need 2 witnesses to establish the truth. Hmm. I thought that was why God will send two witnesses to watch the last half of the week. God is going to do a lot of destruction and will want witnesses.

Revelation is 2 witnesses, 2 narratives of the same time period This is human reasoning. I don't believe it. Sorry. But it seems your mind is made up.

If it was Chronological, one of Jesus' first acts as King of the physical Earth would be giving power back to Satan for Satan to persecute the saints.
Why do you find this so difficult to believe? Jesus will then OWN all authority and power so He can certainly and legally delegate. Just notice, it is only for 42 months. Without a doubt, the one delegating is more powerful than the one delegated to.

I find no problem with this for God has had it (the 70th week) planned from the beginning. Why should this cause you anguish when it was planned and will come to pass just as written?

Question: does the world want a world without God? I am certain of it. I find it quite like God to give the world what they want.

Jamdoc · Mar 25, 2021

iamlamad said:
The duplication of events I don't find any. Please show us.

Jesus in the clouds twice: Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20
The 144000 twice: Revelation 7 and Revelation 14
The victorious saints in heaven twice Revelation 7 and Revelation 15
A great Earthquake in Jerusalem twice Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18-19
Jesus returning to Earth to Establish His Kingdom twice, Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 19

an angel saying that the 7th trumpet is the finishing of the mystery of God This "mystery" was not explained. If we look ahead and see what happens, it might explain the meaning of the "mystery." So what happens? Satan looses his position as the spiritual ruler of the world, an the kingdoms are given back to Jesus Christ. The "mystery" then may well be how Satan BECAME the god of this world. I don't see this having anything to do with "the end." I see John continuing on with chapters 12 through 16 to finish the week.

Tell me why you think Jesus would come back to Earth, declare the Earth as His Kingdom, and then hand it over to Satan for 42 more months. Because that is ultimately what you're saying.

because through the entire bible you need 2 witnesses to establish the truth. Hmm. I thought that was why God will send two witnesses to watch the last half of the week. God is going to do a lot of destruction and will want witnesses.

There is that, but the bible itself shows the example in itself the need for multiple witnesses to establish the truth. That's why there are 4 Gospels. That's why we have the books of Samuel/Kings and the books of Chronicles. Different details are given. If you only have 1 you wonder "why was David punished for having a census? God commanded him to do it!" in 2 Samuel 24 then you learn in
1 Chronicles 21 that it was Satan who tricked David into doing it.
A second account of the same events is valuable for providing additional perspective and details that can be missed with just 1 witness. Any doctrine you form, should be able to be demonstrated in more than 1 place in the bible. If you can only find it in one place, you may need to reconsider.

Revelation is 2 witnesses, 2 narratives of the same time period This is human reasoning. I don't believe it. Sorry. But it seems your mind is made up.

It was something spiritually discerned that unlocked Revelation and made the entire book make sense, where trying to read it in Chronological order caused confusion.

Question: does the world want a world without God? I am certain of it. I find it quite like God to give the world what they want.

That is what the first part of the 70th week is, up until the 6th seal. God removes His protection from the world step by step, and allows the Antichrist to have power over the world, to give the world what they want, a "utopia" without Him.

iamlamad · Mar 26, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Jesus in the clouds twice: Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20
The 144000 twice: Revelation 7 and Revelation 14
The victorious saints in heaven twice Revelation 7 and Revelation 15
A great Earthquake in Jerusalem twice Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18-19
Jesus returning to Earth to Establish His Kingdom twice, Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 19

Tell me why you think Jesus would come back to Earth, declare the Earth as His Kingdom, and then hand it over to Satan for 42 more months. Because that is ultimately what you're saying.

There is that, but the bible itself shows the example in itself the need for multiple witnesses to establish the truth. That's why there are 4 Gospels. That's why we have the books of Samuel/Kings and the books of Chronicles. Different details are given. If you only have 1 you wonder "why was David punished for having a census? God commanded him to do it!" in 2 Samuel 24 then you learn in
1 Chronicles 21 that it was Satan who tricked David into doing it.
A second account of the same events is valuable for providing additional perspective and details that can be missed with just 1 witness. Any doctrine you form, should be able to be demonstrated in more than 1 place in the bible. If you can only find it in one place, you may need to reconsider.

It was something spiritually discerned that unlocked Revelation and made the entire book make sense, where trying to read it in Chronological order caused confusion.

That is what the first part of the 70th week is, up until the 6th seal. God removes His protection from the world step by step, and allows the Antichrist to have power over the world, to give the world what they want, a "utopia" without Him.

Jesus in the clouds twice: Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20
Please point out Jesus in the clouds in the Rev, 6 passage. I think you are imagining what is not really there. As for the chapter 14 passage, do you really think God will harvest people with a sickle? My friend, that is symbolism.

The 144000 twice: Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 The first time they are being sealed for their protection from the trumpet judgments, and the second time they are seen in heaven. This is the progression of TIME.

The victorious saints in heaven twice Revelation 7 and Revelation 15 Again this is only the progression of TIME and show us different people at a different time. The large group in chapter 7 is the just raptured church. Those saints in chapter 15 are the those murdered by the Beast during the days of GT: two groups, two different times.

A great Earthquake in Jerusalem twice Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18-19
Actually, this is the same earthquake; the first mention is written in a parenthesis, outside of John's chronology. By the context, we can tell it is speaking of the same time: 1260 days after the midpoint.

Jesus returning to Earth to Establish His Kingdom twice, Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 19 Sorry, missed it again. There is no coming in Rev. 11. It is only a "closing" where the ownership of property is legally changed.

I am beginning to see why we seldom agree.

iamlamad · Mar 26, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Tell me why you think Jesus would come back to Earth, declare the Earth as His Kingdom, and then hand it over to Satan for 42 more months. Because that is ultimately what you're saying.

We already disagree. There is nothing in chapter 11 of Jesus "coming back to earth." It only speaks of a change of ownership or rulership. This is accomplished in the court room of heaven. Jesus does not return to earth until chapter 19.

Jamdoc · Mar 26, 2021

iamlamad said:
Jesus in the clouds twice: Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20
Please point out Jesus in the clouds in the Rev, 6 passage. I think you are imagining what is not really there. As for the chapter 14 passage, do you really think God will harvest people with a sickle? My friend, that is symbolism.

These are unbelievers that don't believe in God, they will only believe when they see Him in the clouds.
Revelation 6:15-16

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

This is the 'every eye shall see him', and 'all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him' moment.

At Armageddon they're not wailing. They're challenging Him to a fight.
What happens is Jesus shows up in the clouds, raptures the elect, pours out His wrath on the world, and they curse God for it instead of repent. Then they're led to Armageddon, knowing He'll come back to the Earth at Jerusalem, and they're prepared to fight, not repent. They're done wailing at that point. Then Jesus comes down and destroys them all. But the first time they see Him, they wail. It's at that point that they even believe He's real. But they still don't repent. They still rebel the entire time.

The 144000 twice: Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 The first time they are being sealed for their protection from the trumpet judgments, and the second time they are seen in heaven. This is the progression of TIME.

The victorious saints in heaven twice Revelation 7 and Revelation 15 Again this is only the progression of TIME and show us different people at a different time. The large group in chapter 7 is the just raptured church. Those saints in chapter 15 are the those murdered by the Beast during the days of GT: two groups, two different times.

A great Earthquake in Jerusalem twice Revelation 11:13 and Revelation 16:18-19
Actually, this is the same earthquake; the first mention is written in a parenthesis, outside of John's chronology. By the context, we can tell it is speaking of the same time: 1260 days after the midpoint.

Jesus returning to Earth to Establish His Kingdom twice, Revelation 11:15 and Revelation 19 Sorry, missed it again. There is no coming in Rev. 11. It is only a "closing" where the ownership of property is legally changed.

I am beginning to see why we seldom agree.

Because you don't see that Jesus comes back at the 6th seal (yet you believe the rapture is at the 6th seal, how you don't understand that the rapture IS the return of Christ is beyond me. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout," You do not have the rapture without Jesus coming down in the clouds first.), and don't recognize that those events are in the same order, you don't see them as duplicates. But, if you do understand they're in the same order, then you'll understand they are different perspectives of the same events.
Revelation doesn't "jump around" in time randomly. It's 2 perspectives of the same time periods with different details, both in order.

In order to put this together you will also need to not blow off Matthew 24 as "not for the church it's for the Jews". Because you do this you don't grasp the timing, and the consistency of the timing shown in scripture.

Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

Well-Known Member

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Lamad

Lamad

Watching and Praying Always

Lamad

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Lamad

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Watching and Praying Always

Lamad

Watching and Praying Always

Lamad

Lamad

Watching and Praying Always

Similar threads