Is Mary the mother of God?

prodromos said:

So you believe that God did not use Mary's flesh when she conceived God in her womb, but that Jesus' flesh was a completely new creation?

God created Adam from the clay, but then Eve was created using Adam's flesh. Every person since that time has been created by God using flesh from both the mother and the father. The only exception is Christ, whose flesh was taken only from His mother Mary. If Jesus was not formed from Mary's flesh, then Jesus does not share our flesh, and His death and resurrection would not have redeemed our flesh. There will be no resurrection of the dead because our flesh will still be bound in Hades.

I also have to wonder at what your understanding is of what makes someone a mother?

If a woman carries a child in her womb for nine months, gives birth and nurses that child as he matures, is not that woman the childs mother? If that child also happens to be God, doesn’t that make the woman God's mother? If not, why not?

Do you understand that calling Mary the mother of God, is defending the fact of Jesus' being man while also God? Do you understand that denying Mary being the mother of God, implicitly denies His humanity?

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Hi and lets see what Matt 1:20 says first .

#1 The Greek words THAT WHCH IS CONCEIVED / GENNA is in the Greek AORIST TENSE and means it did happen in her ( MARY ) is conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT and Mary had no say about it .

#2 , In Phil 2:7 Jesus was made in THE LIKENESS / HOMOIOMA ( G3667 ) and that means that Jesus was made in the LIKENESS , SHAPE , IDENTITY of MAN !!

#3 And in JOHN 1:14 Jesus is , OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN / MO0NOGENES in the DATIVE CASE , single of its kind .

#4 And since Jesus is BEGOTTEN by THE FATHER / PATER , is also in the GENITIVE CASE .

Did Jesus sibling , were begotten by the God the FATHER , NO !!

dan p

Dan Perez said:

Hi and lets see what Matt 1:20 says first .

#1 The Greek words THAT WHCH IS CONCEIVED / GENNA is in the Greek AORIST TENSE and means it did happen in her ( MARY ) is conceived by the HOLY SPIRIT and Mary had no say about it .

#2 , In Phil 2:7 Jesus was made in THE LIKENESS / HOMOIOMA ( G3667 ) and that means that Jesus was made in the LIKENESS , SHAPE , IDENTITY of MAN !!

#3 And in JOHN 1:14 Jesus is , OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN / MO0NOGENES in the DATIVE CASE , single of its kind .

#4 And since Jesus is BEGOTTEN by THE FATHER / PATER , is also in the GENITIVE CASE .

Did Jesus sibling , were begotten by the God the FATHER , NO !!

dan p

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Your interpretation in #1 is contrary to the Scriptures. Please read Luke 1:31-38 for your correction and edification.

In #2, are you suggesting that Jesus did NOT become man, but only appeared to be man? If so, this is the Christians only part or the forum and the above is anti-christian heresy.

Hebrews 2:14-18

#3 Yes, Jesus is unique in that He is the ONLY Son of God and He is the ONLY God-man. That does not mean that His flesh is unique.

#4 Not sure what you think you are arguing against here. In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, Jesus' siblings were children of Joseph by his former wife, she having died before Mary was betrothed to Joseph. Their attitude and behaviour towards Jesus is consistent with being older brethren.

The Lord entrusted the care of His mother to the Apostle St. John 19:25-27, how could she have had other children?

prodromos said:

Your interpretation in #1 is contrary to the Scriptures. Please read Luke 1:31-38 for your correction and edification.

In #2, are you suggesting that Jesus did NOT become man, but only appeared to be man? If so, this is the Christians only part or the forum and the above is anti-christian heresy.

Hebrews 2:14-18

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.​

#3 Yes, Jesus is unique in that He is the ONLY Son of God and He is the ONLY God-man. That does not mean that His flesh is unique.

#4 Not sure what you think you are arguing against here. In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, Jesus' siblings were children of Joseph by his former wife, she having died before Mary was betrothed to Joseph. Their attitude and behaviour towards Jesus is consistent with being older brethren.

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Hi and point 4 , I do nor hold to TRADITIONS , only what is written in the bible !

And Matt 1:20 is very CLEAR to me , THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED / GENNAO ( is in the Greek AORIST TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and a PARTICIPLE and the Aorist tense means it happened in the PAST and is in the GREEK , GENITIVE CASE means Possession !!

And Matt 1:20 says For that which is CONCEIVED IN HER , IS of the HOLY SPIRIT ,

And both Greek words HOLY SPIRIT are also in the GENITIVE CASE !!

dan p

Dan Perez said:

Hi and point 4 , I do nor hold to TRADITIONS , only what is written in the bible !

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2 Thessalonians 2:15

You do hold to tradition though. The belief that Mary had other children after Christ is a Protestant tradition which is not in the Bible. Nowhere do the Scriptures state that Mary gave birth to other children.

And Matt 1:20 is very CLEAR to me , THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED / GENNAO ( is in the Greek AORIST TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and a PARTICIPLE and the Aorist tense means it happened in the PAST and is in the GREEK , GENITIVE CASE means Possession !!

And Matt 1:20 says For that which is CONCEIVED IN HER , IS of the HOLY SPIRIT ,

And both Greek words HOLY SPIRIT are also in the GENITIVE CASE !!

dan p

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So I take it your Bible doesn’t have Luke 1?

prodromos said:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle​

You do hold to tradition though. The belief that Mary had other children after Christ is a Protestant tradition which is not in the Bible. Nowhere do the Scriptures state that Mary gave birth to other children.

So I take it your Bible doesn’t have Luke 1?

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Hi and what does Matt 1:20

prodromos said:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle​

You do hold to tradition though. The belief that Mary had other children after Christ is a Protestant tradition which is not in the Bible. Nowhere do the Scriptures state that Mary gave birth to other children.

So I take it your Bible doesn’t have Luke 1?

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Hi and never answered what Matt 1:20 says that MARY conception was NOT by the HOLY SPIRIT ?

In 2 Thess 2:15 the Greek word THE TRADITION / PARAOSIS is in the Greek ACCUSATIVE CASE and it means that is the END of the Action or motion described .

Most Greek words have more than One meaning !

The Greek word for TRADITIONS / PARADOSIS really has a BAD MEANING .

Like in In Matt 15:6 meant a TRADITION of the Jewish Elder of men .

That is what Col 2:8 , says were the TRADITIONS OF MEN .

That is why in 2 Thess 3:6 , the better translation of OARADOSIS is best to translate it INSTRUCTION and that is what Paul MEANT in 2 Thess 3:6 .

So what were the INSTRUCTIONS / PARADOSIS and from WHOM did Paul receive his INSTRUCTION FROM , not from Peter or from the TRADITIONS from the Jewish ELDERS but from the LORD JESUS CHRIST .

tampasteve said:

Yes, she is the Theotokos, the Dei Genitrix, the mother of God.

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That is entirely correct.

Pavel Mosko said:

I had a friend who came from a church that descended from the Assyrian Church of the East, aka Nestorian Church. It was interesting all the arguments/ discussions we had on this stuff going back to 2006-2012. It was pretty much a rehash of all the stuff from Christian antiquity between saint Cyril and Nestorius.

OK there was one exception, I had to give a prologue of the term theotokos and why it was used to combat Arianism etc.

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The Church of the East rejected Nestorian Christology and implemented a model similiar to Chalcedon when Mar Babai the Great was Catholicos/Patriarch, around the year 500. One reason they has previously nominally bought into Nestorianism is their bishops were looking for an issue they could use to differentiate themselves from the Church in the Byzantine Empire so as to stop the Sassanian Persian Zoroastrian persecutions, and the Council of Ephesus appeared to be a winner. Like Patriarch John of Antioch, they did not understand at first how messed up the Nestorian Christology was. There were also rumors, which were probably scurrilous, that St. Cyril had orchestrated the murder of the Pagan leader Hypatia, and this might have influenced them.

The Assyrian Church of the East was recognized as being doctrinally compatible with the Roman Catholic Church in the 1990s, and like the EOs and OOs, the Assyrians may take communion in Catholic churches and vice versa. In practice, they are one of only two churches that allows this, the other being the Syriac Orthodox Church.

The Liturgist said:

The Assyrian Church of the East was recognized as being doctrinally compatible with the Roman Catholic Church in the 1990s, and like the EOs and OOs, the Assyrians may take communion in Catholic churches and vice versa. In practice, they are one of only two churches that allows this, the other being the Syriac Orthodox Church.

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Yep most of that we know, or realize, everything except the statement that their Christology is messed up. I think my friend is good at using stuff from Bishop Soro (who once lived in our are of Silicon valley, and went over to the Chaldeans later on when the talks reached an impasse) and other people that their theology is somehow misunderstood, their use of Syriac terms is something similar to what other people do. Basically my friend can quote the various Syriac terms for hypostasis, essence etc. where things sound about the same etc.


Part of the problem my friends church has a history that is a little bit reminiscent of the book "Evangelicals on the Canterbury" trail, only an older Syriac version for folks who want the heritage and tradition of the ancient Church, while part of them still retains their Protestant fears or Catholicism etc. And of course this was going on largely before the internet when people were much much less informed on this stuff. I have to look back and laugh, even I did not begin to take baby steps to learn the basic differences in Eastern Christendom until I was nearly age 30 in 1997!

b4jesustoday said:

Is Mary the mother of God?

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1 Corinthians 15:45 calls Jesus the "last Adam." Adam is a human prototype.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Isaiah 44:24).

Genesis 1:1 could just as well read:
In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth.

As well as Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God the Word.

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus.

Jesus, the last Adam, was created by the Father (Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5, John 1:14). And in fact the body of Jesus (his humanity) is the only thing the Father created. Isaiah 44:24 states that he who created all things in the beginning did so alone / by himself. That was Jesus (preincarnate).

Jesus (the last Adam) is as much a prototype as the first Adam was. But Jesus went through the embryonic gestation and birth unlike the first Adam who was fully formed as an adult. This was so Jesus would be the legal heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David. Because Miryam bat Eli was his gestational surrogate. She was a virgin when the Holy Ghost placed the embryo the Father created in her womb. This is the miracle. The virgin birth itself did not exempt Jesus from the sin nature of Adam (passed on to all his heirs by birth). Jesus is his own human race: population = Jesus.

And he laid that entire race down on the cross to pay the sin debt of our human race.

So Mary (blessed as she is) is not the mother of God or even the genetic mother of Jesus.

JohnD70X7 said:

1 Corinthians 15:45 calls Jesus the "last Adam." Adam is a human prototype.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Isaiah 44:24).

Genesis 1:1 could just as well read:
In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth.

As well as Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God the Word.

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus.

Jesus, the last Adam, was created by the Father (Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5, John 1:14). And in fact the body of Jesus (his humanity) is the only thing the Father created. Isaiah 44:24 states that he who created all things in the beginning did so alone / by himself. That was Jesus (preincarnate).

Jesus (the last Adam) is as much a prototype as the first Adam was. But Jesus went through the embryonic gestation and birth unlike the first Adam who was fully formed as an adult. This was so Jesus would be the legal heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David. Because Miryam bat Eli was his gestational surrogate. She was a virgin when the Holy Ghost placed the embryo the Father created in her womb. This is the miracle. The virgin birth itself did not exempt Jesus from the sin nature of Adam (passed on to all his heirs by birth). Jesus is his own human race: population = Jesus.

And he laid that entire race down on the cross to pay the sin debt of our human race.

So Mary (blessed as she is) is not the mother of God or even the genetic mother of Jesus.

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Where did you get your Christology from?

-CryptoLutheran

JohnD70X7 said:

1 Corinthians 15:45 calls Jesus the "last Adam." Adam is a human prototype.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, Isaiah 44:24).

Genesis 1:1 could just as well read:
In the beginning God the Word created the heavens and the earth.

As well as Luke 3:38
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God the Word.

John 1:14 (NASB95)
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The first Adam was created by the preincarnate Jesus.

Jesus, the last Adam, was created by the Father (Hebrews 10:5, Hebrews 1:5, John 1:14). And in fact the body of Jesus (his humanity) is the only thing the Father created. Isaiah 44:24 states that he who created all things in the beginning did so alone / by himself. That was Jesus (preincarnate).

Jesus (the last Adam) is as much a prototype as the first Adam was. But Jesus went through the embryonic gestation and birth unlike the first Adam who was fully formed as an adult. This was so Jesus would be the legal heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and King David. Because Miryam bat Eli was his gestational surrogate. She was a virgin when the Holy Ghost placed the embryo the Father created in her womb. This is the miracle. The virgin birth itself did not exempt Jesus from the sin nature of Adam (passed on to all his heirs by birth). Jesus is his own human race: population = Jesus.

And he laid that entire race down on the cross to pay the sin debt of our human race.

So Mary (blessed as she is) is not the mother of God or even the genetic mother of Jesus.

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This is contrary to the Nicene-Constantinopolian creed which is the standard you have to accept in order to post in the Christians only sections of the forum which is where you just posted.

I don't know how to set this one up, but i do agree with Elizabeths words, Mother of my Lord (and not God) because the Word became flesh and God made Jesus Lord and Christ. So stand with Elizabeth on this one.

For example we would agree that the Word, the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. The Word became flesh/made a man/seed of Abraham and made Christ and Lord (who only hath immortality) and our one mediator between God and man. That aside.

I think we would agree that the"my Lord" (in red) is Jesus Christ after his ascension

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Yeshua) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Just as Jesus points out what David professes concerning him as "my Lord" comes by the Holy Ghost here

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Elizabeth also acknowledges Mary as the mother of my Lord in this same way

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And it was God that made Jesus Lord and Christ

The apostles show The LORD (Jehovah) made Jesus Lord and Christ

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I certainly do not want to diminish the virgin birth when it comes to the only begotten of the Father. I just don't see it as appropriate to say mother of my God over Mary the mother of my Lord, I think Elizabeth got it more appropriately as it relates to her.

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, the Son of God

And yes I know the Son is the Word made flesh (Who WAS with God) Who come out from God, and Who WAS God and then made flesh. Who took not upon himself the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham. We know His divinity preceeded Mary (so she did not give birth by way of imparting His divinity to him obviously). The Word made flesh emptied himself (was made of a woman under the law) became a man but I agree more with Elizabeth who adresses Mary as the mother of my Lord not mother of my God.

This simplifies things

1 Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And I don't even want to diminish "God with us". We know the Word who was God (was made flesh) emptied himself and did his works by the Father (he was never alone). As we know God was with Christ (Acts 10:38) God was in Christ (2 Cr 5:19) and the God that made him Lord and Christ was with us in Him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me?

Jesus (my Lord) also said His Father (my God) was in him which did the works.

The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

John 20:17 Jesus now, after he had risen said... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I (your Lord) ascend unto MY God and YOUR God (The God who made me Lord and Christ). Its better left simple, I would stick with Elizabeth's adress of Mary, as the mother of my Lord (Who is the Christ, the Son of God) and much more ofcourse, but shes not mother of all he encompasses because he was before her, and created her (He is probably more her mother then she is his).

Although, I dont really like how I put that out there because I would have chosen a different arrangement, or left out a thing or two but I figured someone would jump on it (like some pseudo denial of his divinity) whenever preferring Elizabeths words others so I over stuffed a little and got a ittle sloppy.

I wont argue, I just need to drop something off on this forum every few years when I am bored.

2BeholdHisGlory said:

I wont argue, I just need to drop something off on this forum every few years when I am bored

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Thanks for the heads up. I will simply ignore your post then.

prodromos said:

Thanks for the heads up. I will simply ignore your post then.

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Thank you whoever you are! I would prefer that then

2BeholdHisGlory said:

I don't know how to set this one up, but i do agree with Elizabeths words, Mother of my Lord (and not God) because the Word became flesh and God made Jesus Lord and Christ. So stand with Elizabeth on this one.

For example we would agree that the Word, the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. The Word became flesh/made a man/seed of Abraham and made Christ and Lord (who only hath immortality) and our one mediator between God and man. That aside.

I think we would agree that the"my Lord" (in red) is Jesus Christ after his ascension

Psalm 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Yeshua) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Just as Jesus points out what David professes concerning him as "my Lord" comes by the Holy Ghost here

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost,
The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Elizabeth also acknowledges Mary as the mother of my Lord in this same way

Luke 1:43 And whence is this to me,
that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And it was God that made Jesus Lord and Christ

The apostles show The LORD (Jehovah) made Jesus Lord and Christ

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus,
whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

I certainly do not want to diminish the virgin birth when it comes to the only begotten of the Father. I just don't see it as appropriate to say mother of my God over Mary the mother of my Lord, I think Elizabeth got it more appropriately as it relates to her.

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ, the Son of God

And yes I know the Son is the Word made flesh (Who WAS with God) Who come out from God, and Who WAS God and then made flesh. Who took not upon himself the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham. We know His divinity preceeded Mary (so she did not give birth by way of imparting His divinity to him obviously). The Word made flesh emptied himself (was made of a woman under the law) became a man but I agree more with Elizabeth who adresses Mary as the mother of my Lord not mother of my God.

This simplifies things

1 Cr 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And I don't even want to diminish "God with us". We know the Word who was God (was made flesh) emptied himself and did his works by the Father (he was never alone). As we know God was with Christ (Acts 10:38) God was in Christ (2 Cr 5:19) and the God that made him Lord and Christ was with us in Him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father,
and the Father in me?

Jesus (my Lord) also said His Father (my God) was in him which did the works.

The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

2 Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

John 20:17 Jesus now, after he had risen said... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I (your Lord) ascend unto MY God and YOUR God (The God who made me Lord and Christ). Its better left simple, I would stick with Elizabeth's adress of Mary, as the mother of my Lord (Who is the Christ, the Son of God) and much more ofcourse, but shes not mother of all he encompasses because he was before her, and created her (He is probably more her mother then she is his).

Although, I dont really like how I put that out there because I would have chosen a different arrangement, or left out a thing or two but I figured someone would jump on it (like some pseudo denial of his divinity) whenever preferring Elizabeths words others so I over stuffed a little and got a ittle sloppy.

I wont argue, I just need to drop something off on this forum every few years when I am bored.

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I know a girl, she puts the color in my world

sunlover1 said:

I know a girl, she puts the color in my world

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Too much color is an old habit, its become my signature lol
So good talking with you today Sis! (Hugs)

2BeholdHisGlory said:

Too much color is an old habit, its become my signature lol
So good talking with you today Sis! (Hugs)

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It was so fun to talk as though no time had passed!
I appreciate your color(ful) signature.
Never "too much" color, is there?