Is freewill real or just something we invented it ?

TedT said:

Please consider:
IF by any means, by any system, HE creates sinful people, sinners by no free will decision of their own, then HE is responsible for their evil.

If as pre-conception existence theology suggests HE created everyone in HIS image with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in the Son as the only saviour from all sin OR to decide by faith to reject YHWH as a liar and a false god, (the unforgivable sin), repudiating the need for a saviour or even the concept of sin...then and only then is HE not responsible for the choices made by HIS creation.

Death proves sin.
The death of embryos proves their sin.
Only sinners are born as human.
Only sinners die.

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God did not create sinful people, people created sinful people.

disciple Clint said:

God did not create sinful people, people created sinful people.

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The story checks out. Ecclesiastes 7:29.

Humanity’s going in search of many wicked schemes and devices was either an act of their own will, an act of Gods will, or both (!) Yet we already know that it’s outside the will of God that mankind go after sin (1 Thessalonians 4:3) in addition to many other plain sense scripture.

This only leaves one option as to where the will to sin came from (Ecclesiastes 7:29.)

disciple Clint said:

OK I will restate it this way: Man is responsible because , were it not for the misuse of man's free will God would not need to correct man and respond with:

1. God makes the DARKNESS.
2. God sends the BAD TIMES.
3. The LORD DOES ALL THESE THINGS!

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You are entitled to your opinion, however "I, the LORD, am the one who does these things." suggests more control and less reluctant response.

Psalm 51:5-6 [NASB]
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

Psalm 58:2-5 [NASB]
2 No, in heart you work unrighteousness; On earth you weigh out the violence of your hands. 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. 4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent; Like a deaf cobra that stops up its ear, 5 So that it does not hear the voice of charmers, [Or] a skillful caster of spells.

John 3:18-20 [NASB]
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

John 8:33-36 [NASB]
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 1:18-21 [NASB]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 3:9-12 [NASB]
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

We are born with the freedom to follow our natural desires into the slavery to sin. Only God can set man free to follow righteousness.

disciple Clint said:

God did not create sinful people, people created sinful people.

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I certainly agree but the doctrine of inherited Adamic sin denies it.

atpollard said:

Psalm 51:5-6 [NASB]

Psalm 58:2-5 [NASB]

John 3:18-20 [NASB]

John 8:33-36 [NASB]

Romans 1:18-21 [NASB]


Romans 3:9-12 [NASB]

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NASB]

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Because I know GOD I know that being made a sinner by inheriting anything from another sinner is a blasphemy against HIS loving righteous nature.

Though I cannot deny these verses and what they mean, I do not think I should blaspheme HIS goodness: light cannot create dark, good cannot create evil.

I petitioned the LORD to reconcile my dilemma for some years and then HE led me to investigate the Bible for the doctrine of our Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) and fall. I found that this doctrine is actually written throughout the bible (dozens of verses that can be interpreted to support our pce and many are better doctrine) but ignored by the vast majority of theologies and church dogma.

PCE theology contends that YHWH created everyone in HIS image with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose for HIM as God or against HIM as GOD by faith, a hope without proof. And it was by our free will response to HIS claims:
- to be our creator GOD,
- that the Son was the only salvation from evil and the enslaving addictive quality of evil that destroys our free will,
- that HE would elect, chose, every person who put their faith in HIM to be saved from any and all future sin by the work of the Son, to become HIS Bride in the heavily state of marriage,
- and that any who chose to rebel against HIM as their GOD, who rejected HIS claims as lies would thereby self create themselves as eternally evil, unfit to be chosen to be HIS bride and therefore fit only to be banished to the outer darkness forever...

that HIS creation became separated into 1. the holy elect, 2. the eternally reprobate and 3. the sinful elect who, though accepting HIM as their GOD, rejected HIS command to come out from among their reprobate friends who were to be judged which forced the postponement of the judgement lest they be destroyed also (against HIS promise of election), becoming the sinful elect, the sinful good seed, HIS sheep who went astray into sin. Then HE created the physical universe which we all saw and sent all sinners, both elect and non-elect, to the earth to live together until the full redemption and sanctification of HIS sinful elect which allows the judgement of the Satanic non-elect to proceed.

The cognitive dissonance of the necessity to believe two opposites are both true at the same time (GOD is god yet GOD creates evil) is a confusion started by the 'created on earth' doctrine which forced us to accept all manner of confusion.

TedT said:

light cannot create dark, good cannot create evil.

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Romans 7:7-24 [NASB]


Are you aware that in physics, "darkness" does not exist. Think about it for a moment.

• How would you measure the amount of "darkness" in a room?
• How would you capture "darkness" to measure it?

"Darkness" does not exist. It is an abstract concept defined by the lack of light. Light exists, so you can capture photons and measure how much "Light" is in a room. The closer that a room gets to "zero light", the "darker" it appears.

If "Light" did not exist, then the very concept of "darkness" (the absence of light) would be meaningless. So the simple fact that LIGHT exists, by virtue of the fact that it exists, defines DARKNESS. Light needs to do NOTHING to create Darkness except to exist.

God exists and IS GOOD by virtue of His very existence (just like Light). As the existence of LIGHT defines the absence of Light as "Darkness" ... so the existence of GOOD (God) defines the absence of Good as "Evil".

As LIGHT creates "darkness" and HEAT creates "cold", so GOOD creates "evil" ... simply by existing.

• GOOD is "towards God"
• EVIL is "away from God"

Two opposite directions created by one common reference point.

atpollard said:

Are you aware that in physics, "darkness" does not exist.

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Are you aware that that has no meaning in theological terms except as metaphor?

TedT said:

Are you aware that that has no meaning in theological terms except as metaphor?

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Can evil exist without God?

TedT said:

I certainly agree but the doctrine of inherited Adamic sin denies it.

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except for the fact that God did not create Adam with original sin, Adam accomplished all on his own. So man has afflicted man with original sin.

atpollard said:

Can evil exist without God?

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GOD cannot live with evil.

Only by HIS creation of a person with a free will able to reject HIM and HIS commands can evil exist.

Our free will was an absolute necessity for HIM to be able to fulfill HIS purpose for our creation, ie, for us to be HIS Bride in the heavenly experience. True marriage based on love cannot be forced by any means at all as being forced destroys the nature of love and marriage so they are not real. GOD did not want a Stepford wife so we had to have a will free to accept or to reject HIS proposal.

TedT said:

GOD cannot live with evil.

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That was not the question.

You claimed the physical non-existance of darkness except as a measure of light had “no meaning in theological terms except as metaphor”. So the question is “Can evil exist without God?”

... or is evil simply a measure of good (God-like-ness) approaching zero?

Paul seemed to claim that the Law made sin possible (in the verse I quoted), yet the Law was completely good and that fact only made sin even more evil. Is it unreasonable to make the leap and even ask the question if the same can be true of God who created the Law? God describes Himself as LIGHT and sin as DARKNESS.

disciple Clint said:

except for the fact that God did not create Adam with original sin, Adam accomplished all on his own. So man has afflicted man with original sin.

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After learning this doctrine and it not making sense to me that HE created Satan with a free will but then created HIS Bride in Adam afflicted with his original sin, I searched for a better answer and was led by the Spirit to a far better answer in Pre-Conception Existence theology which contends our fall was pre-earth by our own free will decision to either reject YHWH as a liar and fase god or to accept HIS claims to be our GOD but rebelled against HIS command...ie, only sinners, both the sinful elect (sinful good seed, sheep gone astray) and the reprobate demonic goats (weeds).

Using Adam to create HIS Church in sin makes HIM responsible for our sins because HE did not have to create us this way. If HE chose for us to inherit Adam's sin then our sinfulness is on HIM; we are sinners by HIS will, not by our own decision. It was certainly possible to create innocents who can only become evil by their free will as proven by both Satan and Adam so why choose to create the rest of us as evil? This is an impossible idea full of blasphemy.

And all the pages written to prove that HE does not hold us guilty for original sin is proven wrong as only so much theo-babble by the death of infants for death is the wage of sin, not a consequence of being conceived into a sinful world. Even if we are not liable for inheriting Adam's fall, why are we created into such an evil place completely given so over to sin that the best of our righteousness is as filthy rags instead of getting the break HE gave Satan and the other demons...are we, HIS Bride and Church, less than them?

TedT said:

I searched for a better answer and was led by the Spirit to a far better answer in Pre-Conception Existence theology which contends our fall was pre-earth

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“Our fall” meaning the fall of humanity, or something else? I’d enjoy reading what Bible verses you believe are in favour of a fall from grace pre earth.

atpollard said:

Paul seemed to claim that the Law made sin possible (in the verse I quoted), yet the Law was completely good and that fact only made sin even more evil.

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I think it must be your preconceptions that make it seem that was what he meant, because to me scripture is clear sin came before the law.

Please consider:
It is written: 1 Timothy 1:9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane...proving that sin came first and the law was its rebuttal as Gal 3:19 supports Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions ... with the added info about the purpose of the law from Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. The awareness is not an awareness of what sin is but an awareness of our own culpability before the law, our own real sinfulness as the law convicts us of sin so that we are ashamed and see the need to seek a Saviour.

With the law being given to convict us of sin, there is no use to give it to a righteous to cause sin.

TedT said:

I searched for a better answer and was led by the Spirit to a far better answer in Pre-Conception Existence theology which contends our fall was pre-earth by our own free will decision to either reject YHWH as a liar and fase god or to accept HIS claims to be our GOD but rebelled against HIS command...ie, only sinners, both the sinful elect (sinful good seed, sheep gone astray) and the reprobate demonic goats (weeds).

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Jeremiah 1:5 and Romans 9:11-14 speak about soul pre-existance. And I have long had similar thoughts to these that you have shared. But in thinking along those lines, I could not find any scriptural support that amounted to anything.

TedT said:

After learning this doctrine and it not making sense to me that HE created Satan with a free will but then created HIS Bride in Adam afflicted with his original sin, I searched for a better answer and was led by the Spirit to a far better answer in Pre-Conception Existence theology which contends our fall was pre-earth by our own free will decision to either reject YHWH as a liar and fase god or to accept HIS claims to be our GOD but rebelled against HIS command...ie, only sinners, both the sinful elect (sinful good seed, sheep gone astray) and the reprobate demonic goats (weeds).

Using Adam to create HIS Church in sin makes HIM responsible for our sins because HE did not have to create us this way. If HE chose for us to inherit Adam's sin then our sinfulness is on HIM; we are sinners by HIS will, not by our own decision. It was certainly possible to create innocents who can only become evil by their free will as proven by both Satan and Adam so why choose to create the rest of us as evil? This is an impossible idea full of blasphemy.

And all the pages written to prove that HE does not hold us guilty for original sin is proven wrong as only so much theo-babble by the death of infants for death is the wage of sin, not a consequence of being conceived into a sinful world. Even if we are not liable for inheriting Adam's fall, why are we created into such an evil place completely given so over to sin that the best of our righteousness is as filthy rags instead of getting the break HE gave Satan and the other demons...are we, HIS Bride and Church, less than them?

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I am content to settle with the information available in the Bible, it contains everything we need to be saved.

As a man who spent much of his life trying to be a Casanova, sometimes succeeding and mostly failing, I can tell you, based on my experiences with women, free will exists.