God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, this is in context to willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:26), and it is not in rejecting the finished work of the cross as you would like it to be.

Rejecting Christ would be willfully sinning. You are actively rejecting that which is perfect for your imperfection.

It certainly could not be classified as an un-willful sin.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Rejecting Christ would be willfully sinning. You are actively rejecting that which is perfect for your imperfection.

It certainly could not be classified as an un-willful sin.

First, of all, an unbeliever cannot receive the knowledge of the truth. The author of Hebrews is also using the word “we” to include himself. Obviously the author of Hebrews is not an unbeliever. The author of Hebrews was warning certain Messianic Jews (Jewish Christians) to not go back to the old Jewish religion in order to avoid persecution for Christ. He mentions how sin can harden a person's heart and make one to depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-13). The context of Hebrews 10 says, “The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:30-31).

Why is this judgment of God for His people so frightening according to Hebrews 10:30-31?

Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

Not sure you understand what this passage is saying but it is telling us that Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out anyone in HIS KINGDOM who does sin and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

For if we do not receive the words of Jesus Christ those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48).

“For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” (Hebrews 10:36).

Matthew 7:21 says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

What is the will of the Father? The will of God is our sanctification or holiness (See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
First, of all, an unbeliever cannot receive the knowledge of the truth. The author of Hebrews is also using the word “we” to include himself. Obviously the author of Hebrews is not an unbeliever. The author of Hebrews was warning certain Messianic Jews (Jewish Christians) to not go back to the old Jewish religion in order to avoid persecution for Christ. He mentions how sin can harden a person's heart and make one to depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-13). The context of Hebrews 10 says, “The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:30-31).

Why is this judgment of God for His people so frightening according to Hebrews 10:30-31?

Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

Not sure you understand what this passage is saying but it is telling us that Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out anyone in HIS KINGDOM who does sin and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

For if we do not receive the words of Jesus Christ those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48).

“For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.” (Hebrews 10:36).

Matthew 7:21 says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

What is the will of the Father? The will of God is our sanctification or holiness (See: 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

The passage in Matthew is self-explanatory. In other words, Jesus is making it very clear to them. There is nothing hidden there.

The will of God is our sanctification, the work of God is our Faith.

Nothing there that says we work for Salvation.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 25, 2021

MMXX said:
When someone says if a born again believer has a sinful thought, they become spiritually dead and bound for "fiery hell", until they confess it - what other conclusion is one to come to than alive, dead, alive? Or saved, unsaved, saved? Or born again, unborn, born again?

Just like any committed relationship, it isn’t over after one difficulty. We enter into a relationship with God, not a legal agreement.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 25, 2021

MMXX said:
I'm not sure how that works. God says to God forgive them but God doesn't, or God knows God won't forgive them but says it to God aloud anyways?

If you insist on seeing it that way, you might as well ask God how come God asked God to do something and then God thanked God for doing so. It shows you don’t understand the relationship between the members of what we call the trinity. One can make it sound silly but it really shows a lack of understanding.

Ceallaigh · Mar 25, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
If you insist on seeing it that way, you might as well ask God how come God asked God to do something and then God thanked God for doing so. It shows you don’t understand the relationship between the members of what we call the trinity. One can make it sound silly but it really shows a lack of understanding.

Actually I was going by "The Lord said unto my Lord" Matthew 22:44
However since you say you know and understand more than I do, please explain why Jesus said that out loud to be recorded in Scripture if He didn't mean it or the Father would refuse to honor it. Was He quoting scripture He said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do"? Was He speaking in vain?

Ceallaigh · Mar 25, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Just like any committed relationship, it isn’t over after one difficulty. We enter into a relationship with God, not a legal agreement.

Yes indeed. But what I'm referring to is over one little difficulty according to BH. I agree it's the height of a legalistic view, but you were in support of it - it being saved, unsaved, saved. I've questioned BH on this fairly extensively and he conceded that's what he's saying - or rather claims that's what scripture says.

You wrote: The “Now you’re saved now your not” is a straw man argument. It shows they don’t understand the dynamics and requirements of relationships. It’s like now you’re married and now your not and now you are depending upon what one does each day.

As a side note; isn't marriage a legal agreement?

Ceallaigh · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
This thread has turned from the "God's wrath poured out on Jesus" to "Man's desire for God's wrath".

Some folks can't seem to get enough of it.

Guojing · Mar 25, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
No, actually they were not forgiven. There is no record of them being forgiven and the record shows that they were judged by God. God is not so unjust as to overlook the sin that they committed. Jesus told Pilate that those who had delived him had the greater sin. He did not add a line but all will be forgiven anyway so it does not matter. Jesus told the Jews tribunal that God was coming in judgement against them. He said the blood of all the prophets who had been murdered would be exacted from that generation. There was no promise of them all being forgiven.

Do you recall what Peter said in his first sermon at Pentecost?

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit, thru Peter, told Israel that they have committed the wicked act of crucifying the Son of God, but if they were to repent and be water baptized, acknowledging that Jesus is their promised Lord and Christ, that wicked act will be forgiven.

The nation still refuse, in the end, when the leaders stoned Stephen, resulting in their fall (Romans 11:11), but that happened later.

The Liturgist · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Would people agree that Abraham and Isaac were a type of what happened with God and His Son?

Was Abraham in any way angry or wrathful toward Isaac?

Jesus was the Passover lamb. We’re the the people who cared for the lamb angry at it? Was God angry at the lambs that were being sacrificed?

Yes, this is Alexandrian typological prophetic exegesis at its best.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Yes, this is Alexandrian typological prophetic exegesis at its best.

I have no idea of Alexandrian typological prophetic exegesis.....but ok.

In all honesty, I know I’m not the first to see the resemblance. I’ve heard others teach it.

It is unmistakeable though.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

MMXX said:
But what I'm referring to is over one little difficulty according to BH. I agree it's the height of a legalistic view, but you were in support of it - it being saved, unsaved, saved. I've questioned BH on this fairly extensively and he conceded that's what he's saying - or rather claims that's what scripture says.

Right, and it can be true in some cases if a believer is double minded. One master will have to give way. It will either be Christ being their master or it will be sin being their master. However, Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other.

In the parable of the prodigal son: We learn that when the son came home to his father and sought forgiveness with him, his father said his son was “dead” and is “alive AGAIN.” (See Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). The prodigal son wasted his inheritance on living it up with prostitutes (Luke 15:30). This means that while the prodigal son was living in sin with prostitutes, he was dead spiritually. But when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father, he became “alive AGAIN” spiritually. He could only be “alive AGAIN” spiritually if he was once alive spiritually at a previous point before he was “dead.” James 5:19-20 teaches this same truth. But I know you and many others do not like this truth, and so you will simply reject what these verses plainly say.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

MMXX said:
Some folks can't seem to get enough of it.

Because it is neglected today by many.
Psalms 7:11 says God is angry at the wicked every day.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Just like any committed relationship, it isn’t over after one difficulty. We enter into a relationship with God, not a legal agreement.

I would say it is both a relationship and a legal agreement. The New Covenant or New Testament is the terms of the contract. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. This would be the pages of the New Testament for the most part. For NT Scripture gives us the terms of our agreement with God.

bling · Mar 26, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Sorry, I don't believe you agree with the verses I posted because if you did, then you would not hold to the sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24. You also would have explained those verses easily to me in how they work in your belief and how they also still fit the context.

Anyways, in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

?

I agree that Ro. 7 Paul is using what is called “Historic Present Tense” similar to the way Mark wrote his gospel. There is a lot of additional information than you addressed to show this.

All the verses you just listed, like with Paul’s verse 7 have to be considered and explained in context and consistency with all scripture as you partially provided.

The Old Law of Moses, was just a “School Master” showing the Jews how they could not deserve salvation and were in need of a better way (mercy/forgiveness).

Bible Highlighter said:
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Any dependence on fulfilling the righteousness of the Law does not work even with help, since it is by faith we are saved.

Bible Highlighter said:
Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Bible Highlighter said:
Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

There is no true obedience to God if one also believes they can sin and still be saved on some level. Remember the believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name? They were told by Jesus to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:22-23). Also, if you want to throw down the, “I never knew you” card, you need to look at Ezekiel 3:20, and you also need to realize that nothing of the kind is said of a similar scenario in Matthew 13:41-42. Will you look up Matthew 13:41-42?

You obviously are not aware of this passage then.

“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.” (Psalms 19:7-10).

It says the Law of the LORD is perfect converting the soul. You don't appear to believe that.

King David said,

“Thy word have I hid in mine heart,
that I might not sin against thee.”
(Psalms 119:11).

Again, how do you believe this verse in light of what you said?

King David sinned big time.

Bible Highlighter said:
Romans chapter 4 verse 4, and Works of Earning Money vs.
Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

If as you say: “God's grace is a free gift”, then the “gift” is truly yours to do with as you please. There would be no strings attached to a purely charitable gift or it would not be a fully charitable gift, but something you will be paying back in part.

Bible Highlighter said:
Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Look at the prodigal son, since that is truly parallel to the way God treats us: The father (God) gave the young son his undeserved inheritance after the son virtually told his father (I wish you were dead so I could have my inheritance). A wise father (like God knows us) would realize this rebellious son would waste that money in worthless pursuits of sinful pleasure, but gave him the money anyway (like we are given much and waste God’s gifts). The Father’s objective for the son is to have that son, of his own free will, to become like He is (Loving). The only way that will happen is by what Jesus taught us “he that is forgiven much Loves much”.

We are not talking about “cars” material things and train a child in this world, but about unbelievable huge gifts.

Bible Highlighter said:
Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

You keep bring up this idea of "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift."

Do you feel Christ (our example) was doing, what He did, out of some obligation to Hid responsibility?

We do an extremely poor job of being responsible, so I do not see how that would “earn” us anything or allow us to “keep” anything. If I do something “responsible” it was not I who did it, but my allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me doing it.

You need to realize: you want good stuff to be done through you, out of a Loving gratitude, since God has done so much for you. A greater realization of what has been done for you is a strong motivator. If you start thinking: “God burdened me with lots of responsible” then you will try to be “responsible” out of some kind of obligation (not out of Love) and thus present something non-Christlike.[/QUOTE]

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
Yes indeed. But what I'm referring to is over one little difficulty according to BH. I agree it's the height of a legalistic view, but you were in support of it - it being saved, unsaved, saved. I've questioned BH on this fairly extensively and he conceded that's what he's saying - or rather claims that's what scripture says.

As a side note; isn't marriage a legal agreement?

You will not find a post where I agreed to what you describe above. I was not in support of it. I also do see this as a legalistic view (now your are saved and now you are not) but the view of someone who does not understand a relatioinship of committment to someone else and focuses mainly on what they get out of an arrangment. I admit that is promoted by many popular preachers, this focus solely on what you get and downplaying to erasing what you have to do. It is even sold to some as placing any requirement on us is insult the "free gift" as though in a relationship one side does all the giving and one all the taking.

A marriage is a legal arranment which both parties can legally get out of. It is a good metaphor for a salvation relationship with the Lord.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

Guojing said:
Do you recall what Peter said in his first sermon at Pentecost?

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit, thru Peter, told Israel that they have committed the wicked act of crucifying the Son of God, but if they were to repent and be water baptized, acknowledging that Jesus is their promised Lord and Christ, that wicked act will be forgiven.

The nation still refuse, in the end, when the leaders stoned Stephen, resulting in their fall (Romans 11:11), but that happened later.

Yes, this reflects what I said, I believe. God did not instantly forgive those who crucified Jesus and those who were forgiven, had to repent. They were already deeply sorry for their sin so that part was already accomplished. And yes I agree that God judged the nation of Israel and put an end to the mosais covenant and their religious service in 70 AD.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I would say it is both a relationship and a legal agreement. The New Covenant or New Testament is the terms of the contract. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. This would be the pages of the New Testament for the most part. For NT Scripture gives us the terms of our agreement with God.

If it is a legal agreement, who is the preciding power to enforce both sides to agree? Where is the higher court that one party can appeal to for justice? In way do you see this as a legal agreement? What are the elements that make it legal and not relationship?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

bling said:
Do you seeing it hard on God, who at any moment could bring Christ down from the cross, empathizing with Christ while He is on the cross, since God Loves Him so much? From Christ’s most fervent pray in the Garden for any way to avoid going to the cross, tells us Christ personally did not want to go to the cross, but would if there was no other way. God out of empathy for Christ would have also preferred for Christ not to go to the cross, but did it to benefit (discipline) me and still allow me to live.

Empathizing with someone is very real and hard if that person is Loved much and going through a tragic situation.

I was in the same situation as those Jews on Pentecost who were cut to the heart (Acts 2:37), but are you telling me, you felt nothing upon realizing what you personally cause Christ to experience?

I did not say I felt nothing at the salvation experience. But I do not manipulate my feelings by focusing on this as I know it is manufacturing something I had rather the Holy Spirit open my eyes to see. I actually do not manufacture feelings through purposely thinking since I left the days of amature acting where this is a method to cause your face and body and speech to reflect an emotion you need to reflect at that point in time. I saw and wept because He opened my eyes, not because I tried to get me to weep. There is a difference.

I can join with you in that experience, but after being a Christian, I also came to the realization my sins were much more significant than I thought at my conversion.

This is correct and I also know this about my sins as well.

Christ desperately wanted to avoid the cross as seen from His pray and was asking for any other way and I had never considered other ways, but thought about it. If I personally had fulfilled my earthly objective without sinning, then Christ would not have had to go to the cross for me, but would I have also provided “another way?” God could have looked down the corridor of time and seen this “other way”, so Christ would not have to go to the cross. I am personally guilty of cause Christ to go to the cross.

I do not see it that way. If you had not sinned, then Christ would have died for those who did. He came for the sick, not the well. I guess I do not see myself as being the sole reason Jesus went to the cross. I am too insignificant. I do not bear that weight which I think as rather light compared to the heafty weight of the sins you openly and willfully chose that damaged other people. That is a realy weight and once seen it is never forgotten.

Nothing is worse than being the cause of Christ going to the cross.
Prison time for adult criminals should not just be "punishment", but to reabilitate the criminal. Our time on the cross (empathitically) should be a learning experience with Christ.

Well, to be frank, I think this is camouflage. One can sit there at Easter or during communion and manufacture feelings of guilt or sorrow for a choice Jesus made for others as well at the command of God but it is not the same as 1) the Holy Spirit showing you want the cross meant for Jesus and 2) the Holy Spirit showing you what your sinful ways and choices look like to him. The weight of sin cuts to the heart and is a dreadful burden once realized. Jesus is not suffering on the cross for Protestants. (He isn't suffering for anyone else either but some faiths keep him there suffering in their theology.) So manufacturing feelings about this is a lot easier for the pride that looking at our own choices. Feeling sorry for Jesus is way more pleasant than feel sorry for your choices.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 27, 2021

MMXX said:
When someone says if a born again believer has a sinful thought, they become spiritually dead and bound for "fiery hell", until they confess it - what other conclusion is one to come to than alive, dead, alive? Or saved, unsaved, saved? Or born again, unborn, born again?

You would have to ask them. I have no idea since this is not my view.

God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

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