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Antoni

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Perhaps I’m naive but I honestly had no idea that the vaccines came from research on aborted fetal lines. I’ve been forced to take the flu vaccine in the past for work. Is it the same for all vaccines?

Hi Melily,

The influenza vaccine does not contain aborted fetal lines, though I am not sure if the research used to develop them involved fetal cells. There are some vaccines however which do use fetal cell lines to grow the virus (rabies, Hep A, etc).
 
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The last I knew, if an Othodox Christan woman whose life is at risk if she were to carry a pregnancy to full term, and has other children, chooses to have an abortion to save the Life of her children's mother, then she is not to be prohibited from receiving Holy Communion, even though serious penance ought to be undertaken in such a case.

But what of the aborted child in this case? Did he or she not suffer martyrdom? Was their own life not sacrificed for the sake of their brothers and sisters.

Decades ago a child was aborted by his mother, and other physicians chose at that time to use stem (base) cells from that child to propagate more such cells, in order for them to have human cells upon which to conduct tests. Many such tests have been instrumental in the development of various medicines.

I wonder, are physicians who work to save others using living cells from a child who was aborted really any worse than the mother who worked to stay alive for the sake of her other children? Are we any more evil than she is because we tolerate the sacrifices that were made by each of these two aborted children for the sake of others. Are we personally guilty of murder if we allow such a woman to Commune with us in the Church, or if we allow physicians to apply such medicines developed through human stem cell research, or if we receive such medicines?

I don't believe that it's an open and shut case, as some moralists think and would have us think. The truth is far more nuanced than extremists on both sides of the controversy are prepared to acknowledge.
 
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Melily

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Hi Melily,

The influenza vaccine does not contain aborted fetal lines, though I am not sure if the research used to develop them involved fetal cells. There are some vaccines however which do use fetal cell lines to grow the virus (rabies, Hep A, etc).
Thank you. Fortunately I’ve never had those to my knowledge.
 
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Melily

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The last I knew, if an Othodox Christan woman whose life is at risk if she were to carry a pregnancy to full term, and has other children, chooses to have an abortion to save the Life of her children's mother, then she is not to be prohibited from receiving Holy Communion, even though serious penance ought to be undertaken in such a case.

But what of the aborted child in this case? Did he or she not suffer martyrdom? Was their own life not sacrificed for the sake of their brothers and sisters.

Decades ago a child was aborted by his mother, and other physicians chose at that time to use stem (base) cells from that child to propagate more such cells, in order for them to have human cells upon which to conduct tests. Many such tests have been instrumental in the development of various medicines.

I wonder, are physicians who work to save others using living cells from a child who was aborted really any worse than the mother who worked to stay alive for the sake of her other children? Are we any more evil than she is because we tolerate the sacrifices that were made by each of these two aborted children for the sake of others. Are we personally guilty of murder if we allow such a woman to Commune with us in the Church, or if we allow physicians to apply such medicines developed through human stem cell research, or if we receive such medicines?

I don't believe that it's an open and shut case, as some moralists think and would have us think. The truth is far more nuanced than extremists on both sides of the controversy are prepared to acknowledge.
Thanks, I’m a repentant sinner myself just trying my best each day to not to add more sins to the long list. :)
 
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abacabb3

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The last I knew, if an Othodox Christan woman whose life is at risk if she were to carry a pregnancy to full term, and has other children, chooses to have an abortion to save the Life of her children's mother, then she is not to be prohibited from receiving Holy Communion, even though serious penance ought to be undertaken in such a case.

But what of the aborted child in this case? Did he or she not suffer martyrdom? Was their own life not sacrificed for the sake of their brothers and sisters.

Decades ago a child was aborted by his mother, and other physicians chose at that time to use stem (base) cells from that child to propagate more such cells, in order for them to have human cells upon which to conduct tests. Many such tests have been instrumental in the development of various medicines.

I wonder, are physicians who work to save others using living cells from a child who was aborted really any worse than the mother who worked to stay alive for the sake of her other children? Are we any more evil than she is because we tolerate the sacrifices that were made by each of these two aborted children for the sake of others. Are we personally guilty of murder if we allow such a woman to Commune with us in the Church, or if we allow physicians to apply such medicines developed through human stem cell research, or if we receive such medicines?

I don't believe that it's an open and shut case, as some moralists think and would have us think. The truth is far more nuanced than extremists on both sides of the controversy are prepared to acknowledge.
I like a lot of stuff you write, and it's late for me so I may be experiencing a case of being stupid and tired, but I am honestly flummoxed by the ethics in the above post.

How are scientists, who research for money, who take the cells from some one else's dead child, in order to make money...somehow doing something ethical? The fact that a woman who gets an abortion, even to save her own life when there are other children involved (I am not aware of a real situation of this, the abortions to save this or that person's life is more of a fiction of the pro killing infant murder cult movement than an actual concrete medical reality), would have a penance indicates that there is something she is doing that is wrong.

Your situation, in its most sympathetic assessment, would be like me killing a man who breaks into my house at night. Technically, I'd have to serve a penance. If I were a priest or bishop, I'd be defrocked (at least canonically). It would not matter if I was protecting my own wife and children (or in a bishop's case, let's say whomever else was in the building he was sleeping in.) In this whole scenario, I do not profit from killing the person. And, I don't take the person's body parts and then sell them (which would save the lives of those who need transplants.)

The fact we do not take prisoners on death row and carve them up for organs (though Jean Claude Van Dam's "Death Warrant" was a movie with such a premise) because we would find this disgustingly immoral, I think lays bare that what you are positing here is unintentionally the height of moral repulsiveness. If we would not dare murder the guilty in order to save lives, nor sell the organs of people we kill in self defense, how are the organs of a completely innocent child fair game?

The fact of the matter is we have dehumanized the children. The fact that it has saved lives has been used by Satan to morally decieve us. Mengle's research on hypothermia has likewise saved lives. There is no utilitarian ethical approach to justify either.

However, the Church has taken the approach that once the doctor's have gone through with the dirty deed, that the sin is their own but not those who take the medication. This makes some sort of sense...It'd be like benefitting from medical treatments that were devised using inhumane research. We would not repeat the research, nor should we dis-invent what it came up with.

So, the Moderna or Oxford vaccines are produced without using fetal tissue. One could take the vaccine with zero moral scruples (technically). Granted, it was developed using this tissue--that's already done though. Not taking it does not take that way. The RNA vaccine technology might end up having terrible long term effects--it may even affect the passions (as some vaccines, like those to get rid of nicotine addiction, do). So, it might end up being really bad. But, it does not depend upon the further exploitation of an innocent life.
 
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Antoni

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The last I knew, if an Othodox Christan woman whose life is at risk if she were to carry a pregnancy to full term, and has other children, chooses to have an abortion to save the Life of her children's mother, then she is not to be prohibited from receiving Holy Communion, even though serious penance ought to be undertaken in such a case.

But what of the aborted child in this case? Did he or she not suffer martyrdom? Was their own life not sacrificed for the sake of their brothers and sisters.

Decades ago a child was aborted by his mother, and other physicians chose at that time to use stem (base) cells from that child to propagate more such cells, in order for them to have human cells upon which to conduct tests. Many such tests have been instrumental in the development of various medicines.

I wonder, are physicians who work to save others using living cells from a child who was aborted really any worse than the mother who worked to stay alive for the sake of her other children? Are we any more evil than she is because we tolerate the sacrifices that were made by each of these two aborted children for the sake of others. Are we personally guilty of murder if we allow such a woman to Commune with us in the Church, or if we allow physicians to apply such medicines developed through human stem cell research, or if we receive such medicines?

I don't believe that it's an open and shut case, as some moralists think and would have us think. The truth is far more nuanced than extremists on both sides of the controversy are prepared to acknowledge.


Yes it is much more nuisanced of course and there is certainly room for oikonomia.
 
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I like a lot of stuff you write, and it's late for me so I may be experiencing a case of being stupid and tired, but I am honestly flummoxed by the ethics in the above post.

How are scientists, who research for money, who take the cells from some one else's dead child, in order to make money...somehow doing something ethical? The fact that a woman who gets an abortion, even to save her own life when there are other children involved (I am not aware of a real situation of this, the abortions to save this or that person's life is more of a fiction of the pro killing infant murder cult movement than an actual concrete medical reality), would have a penance indicates that there is something she is doing that is wrong.

Your situation, in its most sympathetic assessment, would be like me killing a man who breaks into my house at night. Technically, I'd have to serve a penance. If I were a priest or bishop, I'd be defrocked (at least canonically). It would not matter if I was protecting my own wife and children (or in a bishop's case, let's say whomever else was in the building he was sleeping in.) In this whole scenario, I do not profit from killing the person. And, I don't take the person's body parts and then sell them (which would save the lives of those who need transplants.)

The fact we do not take prisoners on death row and carve them up for organs (though Jean Claude Van Dam's "Death Warrant" was a movie with such a premise) because we would find this disgustingly immoral, I think lays bare that what you are positing here is unintentionally the height of moral repulsiveness. If we would not dare murder the guilty in order to save lives, nor sell the organs of people we kill in self defense, how are the organs of a completely innocent child fair game?

The fact of the matter is we have dehumanized the children. The fact that it has saved lives has been used by Satan to morally decieve us. Mengle's research on hypothermia has likewise saved lives. There is no utilitarian ethical approach to justify either.

However, the Church has taken the approach that once the doctor's have gone through with the dirty deed, that the sin is their own but not those who take the medication. This makes some sort of sense...It'd be like benefitting from medical treatments that were devised using inhumane research. We would not repeat the research, nor should we dis-invent what it came up with.

So, the Moderna or Oxford vaccines are produced without using fetal tissue. One could take the vaccine with zero moral scruples (technically). Granted, it was developed using this tissue--that's already done though. Not taking it does not take that way. The RNA vaccine technology might end up having terrible long term effects--it may even affect the passions (as some vaccines, like those to get rid of nicotine addiction, do). So, it might end up being really bad. But, it does not depend upon the further exploitation of an innocent life.
In short, because the cell lines used are continuously propagated from an already aborted fetus, that one fetus from 50 years ago, which might possibly have been (?) a natural, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) and not the product of premeditated action, this cell line in no way promotes the further killing of fetuses. I'd be more concerned and vociferous about the possibility that Chinese physicians are chemically immobilizing prisoners of conscience and then proceeding to cut their vital organs from their living bodies while they are without anesthesia and fully conscious, thus causing their death, so that they can make large amounts of money from selling transplants to paying customers who need or want them. I'll thank a doctor and a nurse who applies medicine in order to prevent harm coming to people, even if they are being paid to do it. "He who does not thank a doctor does not thank God." (St. Gabriel of Georgia)

I do not allow abortion, but I realize that abortions happen regardless of what I allow morally. If any good can come from the evil that has already occurred, The I will allow for that good to come. What's important is that I know that God is my only hope and my only salvation. So I don't place my faith in science and technology. I strive to fear God, not suffering and death. But if I was a physician I'd, by the grace of God, try to treat my patients with the best medicine available. Frankly, I don't think any of the vaccines came without preliminary testing on fetal stem cells, so there isn't a single brand of Covid vaccine that's not tainted in this way.
 
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I like a lot of stuff you write, and it's late for me so I may be experiencing a case of being stupid and tired, but I am honestly flummoxed by the ethics in the above post.

How are scientists, who research for money, who take the cells from some one else's dead child, in order to make money...somehow doing something ethical? The fact that a woman who gets an abortion, even to save her own life when there are other children involved (I am not aware of a real situation of this, the abortions to save this or that person's life is more of a fiction of the pro killing infant murder cult movement than an actual concrete medical reality), would have a penance indicates that there is something she is doing that is wrong.

Your situation, in its most sympathetic assessment, would be like me killing a man who breaks into my house at night. Technically, I'd have to serve a penance. If I were a priest or bishop, I'd be defrocked (at least canonically). It would not matter if I was protecting my own wife and children (or in a bishop's case, let's say whomever else was in the building he was sleeping in.) In this whole scenario, I do not profit from killing the person. And, I don't take the person's body parts and then sell them (which would save the lives of those who need transplants.)

The fact we do not take prisoners on death row and carve them up for organs (though Jean Claude Van Dam's "Death Warrant" was a movie with such a premise) because we would find this disgustingly immoral, I think lays bare that what you are positing here is unintentionally the height of moral repulsiveness. If we would not dare murder the guilty in order to save lives, nor sell the organs of people we kill in self defense, how are the organs of a completely innocent child fair game?

The fact of the matter is we have dehumanized the children. The fact that it has saved lives has been used by Satan to morally decieve us. Mengle's research on hypothermia has likewise saved lives. There is no utilitarian ethical approach to justify either.

However, the Church has taken the approach that once the doctor's have gone through with the dirty deed, that the sin is their own but not those who take the medication. This makes some sort of sense...It'd be like benefitting from medical treatments that were devised using inhumane research. We would not repeat the research, nor should we dis-invent what it came up with.

So, the Moderna or Oxford vaccines are produced without using fetal tissue. One could take the vaccine with zero moral scruples (technically). Granted, it was developed using this tissue--that's already done though. Not taking it does not take that way. The RNA vaccine technology might end up having terrible long term effects--it may even affect the passions (as some vaccines, like those to get rid of nicotine addiction, do). So, it might end up being really bad. But, it does not depend upon the further exploitation of an innocent life.
Also, if you've had MMR, chicken pox, or hepatitis A vaccines then you've already taken medicines derived from aborted fetal cell research. Most people aren't even aware of what goes into the development of the shots they're supposed to get in order to attend school, college, or whatever. Their mere reception of a vaccine does not make them guilty of immorality, let alone murder.
 
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abacabb3

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Also, if you've had MMR, chicken pox, or hepatitis A vaccines then you've already taken medicines derived from aborted fetal cell research. Most people aren't even aware of what goes into the development of the shots they're supposed to get in order to attend school, college, or whatever. Their mere reception of a vaccine does not make them guilty of immorality, let alone murder.
To be fair to myself, I was not a willing participant in these decisions. In any event, cloning a cell line and using it is no different than killing anyone else than using it. I think we make this more complicated than it is.
 
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To be fair to myself, I was not a willing participant in these decisions. In any event, cloning a cell line and using it is no different than killing anyone else than using it. I think we make this more complicated than it is.
Biologists experiment with living cell tissues and observe their interaction with other things. It's what they do. The living tissues must come from someone. It's not therefore necessarily evil to do such research. It depends upon the means by which the tissues are obtained. We would never allow murder, even of the unborn, to take place for the sake of saving lives. But don't you find it odd that, on the other hand, we allow soldiers to take lives in order to save others, and this is tolerated as a lesser of evils, and yet many of us will say that under no circumstances ought we allow the use of medicine that was developed on the basis of tests performed on living human embryonic tissue. Honestly things are not as simple as some would like. If it were that simple then there would be no controversy.

Most of the time what things boil down to is this: People need to identify a bad guy so that they will have a means to be the good guy in their opinions. But it's a sham. The real good guys are the ones who think they are sinners and pray about it always. They judge no one, and they always give to Christ in the form of those who are the least of His servants. This is what is simple.
 
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gzt

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abacabb3

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Biologists experiment with living cell tissues and observe their interaction with other things. It's what they do. The living tissues must come from someone. It's not therefore necessarily evil to do such research. It depends upon the means by which the tissues are obtained. We would never allow murder, even of the unborn, to take place for the sake of saving lives. But don't you find it odd that, on the other hand, we allow soldiers to take lives in order to save others, and this is tolerated as a lesser of evils, and yet many of us will say that under no circumstances ought we allow the use of medicine that was developed on the basis of tests performed on living human embryonic tissue. Honestly things are not as simple as some would like. If it were that simple then there would be no controversy.

Most of the time what things boil down to is this: People need to identify a bad guy so that they will have a means to be the good guy in their opinions. But it's a sham. The real good guys are the ones who think they are sinners and pray about it always. They judge no one, and they always give to Christ in the form of those who are the least of His servants. This is what is simple.
I think the issue is perhaps you are accepting inhumane medical research. This is something maybe we should never be doing and God will judge us for it. You were lauding the doctors, but my point above (which you really did not seem to say was actually incorrect) is that harvesting the organs and tissue of prisoners or even people killed in self defense, because it is simply "wrong", lays bare that it is even more wrong to do it to a single innocent.

Maybe doctors and scientists will one day invent brain uploading and brain chips that control depression. Just because science comes up with these things, it does not mean there isn't a satanic element.
 
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prodromos

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But don't you find it odd that, on the other hand, we allow soldiers to take lives in order to save others, and this is tolerated as a lesser of evils
Babies aren't trying to kill people. Enemy soldiers are.
 
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Babies aren't trying to kill people. Enemy soldiers are.
It's still killing. I don't think that any of us is claiming that it's okay to take the Life of a human fetus to save the lives of others (I know that I'm not). But there are ways in which this tissue does become available which do not involve the intentional taking of any life. I don't agree with those who say that it's inhumane for the tissues in such cases to be used in medical research and development.
 
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I think the issue is perhaps you are accepting inhumane medical research. This is something maybe we should never be doing and God will judge us for it. You were lauding the doctors, but my point above (which you really did not seem to say was actually incorrect) is that harvesting the organs and tissue of prisoners or even people killed in self defense, because it is simply "wrong", lays bare that it is even more wrong to do it to a single innocent.

Maybe doctors and scientists will one day invent brain uploading and brain chips that control depression. Just because science comes up with these things, it does not mean there isn't a satanic element.
I think the issue, perhaps, is that you believe me to be saying that which I'm not saying. I'm putting scenarios before us to ponder, while not claiming that these justify intentional killing of human fetuses for the purpose of saving the lives of others, or improving the quality of others lives. Don't assume me to have a position that I don't have. And God clearly told us how our judgment will be, as commemorated on Meatfare Sunday. I don't recall anything being mentioned about proper treatment of embryonic stem cells resulting from the terminations of extrauterine pregnancies, for example. If my own life had ended in this way, my loving soul would likely have wanted my living cells to be used for the good of others, that they may live to come to the knowledge of God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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rusmeister

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The last I knew, if an Othodox Christan woman whose life is at risk if she were to carry a pregnancy to full term, and has other children, chooses to have an abortion to save the Life of her children's mother, then she is not to be prohibited from receiving Holy Communion, even though serious penance ought to be undertaken in such a case.

But what of the aborted child in this case? Did he or she not suffer martyrdom? Was their own life not sacrificed for the sake of their brothers and sisters.

Decades ago a child was aborted by his mother, and other physicians chose at that time to use stem (base) cells from that child to propagate more such cells, in order for them to have human cells upon which to conduct tests. Many such tests have been instrumental in the development of various medicines.

I wonder, are physicians who work to save others using living cells from a child who was aborted really any worse than the mother who worked to stay alive for the sake of her other children? Are we any more evil than she is because we tolerate the sacrifices that were made by each of these two aborted children for the sake of others. Are we personally guilty of murder if we allow such a woman to Commune with us in the Church, or if we allow physicians to apply such medicines developed through human stem cell research, or if we receive such medicines?

I don't believe that it's an open and shut case, as some moralists think and would have us think. The truth is far more nuanced than extremists on both sides of the controversy are prepared to acknowledge.


I do not allow abortion, but I realize that abortions happen regardless of what I allow morally. If any good can come from the evil that has already occurred, The I will allow for that good to come.
The truth is easy to see, and nuances do not negate it. I agree to a great extent with abacabb3’s assessment.

It seems to me naive to think it acceptable to try to get good out of an evil. Do you not see that it winds up indirectly approving of the evil and encouraging its perpetuation?

All excuses for abortion are hogwash, including the one of the (EXTREMELY rare/almost never happens) mother who saves her own life by killing a child inside of her to supposedly benefit other children. Hogwash. Orthodox morality is simpler than that, and the nuances are damned. To quote Hogarth Hughes, “It’s bad to kill. It’s not bad to die.” So I am not at all sure (re: your reference to penance and Communion) on what level you imagine the Church to excuse such an act as abortion because someone thought they had a good reason. The only legitimate way to Communion is to repent. And that means hating what you did, and thinking it wrong to do it. Ergo, it is wrong, sin, brokenness, flat-out, to excuse abortion for any reason whatsoever, and we should condemn the act and call its perpetrators in the Church to repentance.

It IS an open-and-shut case.
 
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The truth is easy to see, and nuances do not negate it. I agree to a great extent with abacabb3’s assessment.

It seems to me naive to think it acceptable to try to get good out of an evil. Do you not see that it winds up indirectly approving of the evil and encouraging its perpetuation?

All excuses for abortion are hogwash, including the one of the (EXTREMELY rare/almost never happens) mother who saves her own life by killing a child inside of her to supposedly benefit other children. Hogwash. Orthodox morality is simpler than that, and the nuances are damned. To quote Hogarth Hughes, “It’s bad to kill. It’s not bad to die.” So I am not at all sure (re: your reference to penance and Communion) on what level you imagine the Church to excuse such an act as abortion because someone thought they had a good reason. The only legitimate way to Communion is to repent. And that means hating what you did, and thinking it wrong to do it. Ergo, it is wrong, sin, brokenness, flat-out, to excuse abortion for any reason whatsoever, and we should condemn the act and call its perpetrators in the Church to repentance.

It IS an open-and-shut case.
None of the scenarios I presented were presented in order to justify killing a human fetus. That is not my position. There are ethical ways to procure living cells to be used in biological testing. I don't agree with those who hold That it is inhumane to use them in such cases. If the Church sometimes tolerates exceptions to the "Thou shall not kill" law, then the Church could surely tolerate embryonic stem cells from an extrauterine pregnancy that was terminated through a medical procedure to be used in the testing of vaccines.
 
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All excuses for abortion are hogwash, including the one of the (EXTREMELY rare/almost never happens) mother who saves her own life by killing a child inside of her to supposedly benefit other children. Hogwash. Orthodox morality is simpler than that, and the nuances are damned. To quote Hogarth Hughes, “It’s bad to kill. It’s not bad to die.” So I am not at all sure (re: your reference to penance and Communion) on what level you imagine the Church to excuse such an act as abortion because someone thought they had a good reason.
There are instances in which it is legitimate for an expectant mother to undergo certain medical or surgical procedures that will save her life, even if these procedures inevitably involve the death of her unborn child. In these cases it is not a question of intentionally aborting the child. They involve, rather, accepting the loss of the child as an unavoidable consequence of caring for the mother’s health.

The clearest and surest example is the ectopic pregnancy. As everyone knows, should the fetus become lodged in the oviduct or fallopian tube, its continued growth will result in the death of both child and mother. A normal and proper procedure in this case is the removal of the fallopian tube, from which the death of the unborn child inevitably follows. In this case the death of the child is not sought, nor is the mother’s life saved by the child’s dying.

This is not an abortion. Quite simply, the mother’s life is saved by the surgical removal of the oviduct, not by the death of her child.

A similar dilemma would arise in the case of an expectant mother diagnosed with uterine cancer. The death of the child obviously would result from the removal of the cancerous organ, but it is not the death of the child that is deliberately sought, nor is the mother’s life saved as a result of the child’s death. This is not an abortion in the sense used by moral theology; it is just a standard application of the ethical principle known as “double effect”.

such a very tough medical decision is normally a matter of the mother’s choice, and I am familiar with no teaching of the Orthodox Church that would oblige a mother’s conscience to have to choose any particular course of action over another. Nor am I familiar with any teaching of the Orthodox Church that would prevent the child's biological cells from being studied for use in developing medicines.
 
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It seems to me naive to think it acceptable to try to get good out of an evil. Do you not see that it winds up indirectly approving of the evil and encouraging its perpetuation?
No, not necessarily. Let's be somewhat honest. Abortion predates vaccines by thousands of years. People don't have abortions because they want to create an ample supply of baby body parts for use in devising new medicines. People have abortions because they have an unwanted pregnancy, and couldn't care less what happens to the aborted ones. They would just as soon have them incinerated like trash.

That being said, If I had my way there would never be any abortions, period. As far as medical research is concerned, I believe it is entirely possible to have ample quanities of various sorts of bodily tissues available for all the needed research purposes using ethical methods of obtaining them (methods that do not rely upon killing anyone at all). I believe that the powers that be don't want to pursue these alternatives, because they don't even care, and so they would rather just do what is easier and cheaper. This is sin and it is justifyably condemned. But as our current vaccines have been developed through at least some amount of testing on aborted fetal cell lines, there isn't anything that can be done by any of us to change what happened before. Refusing to take the vaccine isn't always going to be the best thing to do, and it's not going to change what's already occured. It will also not stop people from having abortions.
 
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