God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Sorry, I don't believe you agree with the verses I posted because if you did, then you would not hold to the sin and still be saved interpretation on Romans 7:14-24. You also would have explained those verses easily to me in how they work in your belief and how they also still fit the context.

Anyways, in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Source used for a small paragraph within this write up:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

There is no true obedience to God if one also believes they can sin and still be saved on some level. Remember the believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name? They were told by Jesus to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (See: Matthew 7:22-23). Also, if you want to throw down the, “I never knew you” card, you need to look at Ezekiel 3:20, and you also need to realize that nothing of the kind is said of a similar scenario in Matthew 13:41-42. Will you look up Matthew 13:41-42?

You obviously are not aware of this passage then.

“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.” (Psalms 19:7-10).

It says the Law of the LORD is perfect converting the soul. You don't appear to believe that.

King David said,

“Thy word have I hid in mine heart,
that I might not sin against thee.”
(Psalms 119:11).

Again, how do you believe this verse in light of what you said?

Sins causes spiritual death for even a believer. For who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 5:28-30 and Matthew 6:15? If Jesus was talking to unbelievers then it would not matter if unbelievers were to stop in doing these kinds of sins unless they accepted Jesus as their Savior. So Jesus is talking to the believer in that certain sins can destroy our souls. To believe otherwise is simply to make up our own belief we want to be true because it sounds more comforting to us.

Romans chapter 4 verse 4, and Works of Earning Money vs.
Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift.

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace) is wrong because one has no grace or rest ever. This would purely be a works based system of salvation with no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if one messes up. A person’s good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

Here is another example:

If Billy-Bob prayed for a wife for many years and he eventually receive a wife from the Lord and consider her as a gift, then that does not mean Billy-Bob can cheat on her and or not love her and expect for her to stay with him. It is the same with God. Disloyalty to GOD means we do not really love GOD and we just love ourselves more than Him. GOD calls us to obedience to His Word. This was the problem that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But men today want to say that we can break God's commands and they will not die. This was the same lie that the enemy was trying to sell Eve on. The serpent told her that she would not die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Which was a violation of God's command).

Anyways, in conclusion: We know that working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all. But men today confuse the issue to justify sin under God’s grace (Which is what Jude 1:4 warns against).

I've never said you can hold to sin and still be saved.

On a side note, such long posts rarely get read through. Typically a discussion happens with someone saying something, and then another responding directly to what is being said without writing a book on it.

God wants our love. That is what He wants. All of it. When we love God, we keep His commandments.

God forgave us because He loved us, not because we loved Him. His love is not conditional.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
"Sin not unto death" does not mean that there is some sin that will not bring death. It only means that there is some sin that has already sealed their fate.
When someone has received His Spirit and then rejects Him, there is no coming back from that.

It is that sin that is pointless to pray about.

Please show me the context in his epistle where the apostle John is referring to this kind of sin.
In context, the entire epistle contrasts justifying sin (spiritual death) vs. confessing and obeying (spiritual life). I know. I did the study on the entire 1st epistle before.

Also, in context of what is happening in the chapter, your interpretation does not make any sense. You have merely inserted a meaning into the text without looking at what is going on. In context, a brother is struggling with overcoming a mortal sin and he is seeking help from his fellow brethren in that they would pray for him together so that he may have life (i.e. he would have victory over this sin that is besetting him). This believer is confessing their sin (1 John 1:9) and desiring to overcome it (Which means it is not a sin that leads to death). But it can lead to spiritual death if they just give up and keep on sinning and or believe they cannot help but to sin again. For Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

You said:
The sin I would caution you about is that which says you only have forgiveness once you do something for it - regardless of what that is. Provisional forgiveness is a selfish sin.

Jesus did not provisionally hang on a cross.

Are you leaning towards Universalism (that says that all are saved in the end)? If Jesus did not offer us a Provisional Atonement, then that would mean everyone is saved because Jesus died for the sins of the entire world.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I've never said you can hold to sin and still be saved.

Can a believer die spiritually if they lie and or look at a woman in lust and they neglected to seek forgiveness of such a sin?

Was King David saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder?

Was Ananias and Sapphira saved?

Did Adam die physically or spiritually the day he ate of the wrong tree? (See: Genesis 2:17).

You said:
On a side note, such long posts rarely get read through. Typically a discussion happens with someone saying something, and then another responding directly to what is being said without writing a book on it.

I don't like to leave any stone unturned sometimes.
A person can reply to only a portion of what I had written or reply to it over bite sized pieces if defending the truth is really that important to them. I know I have replied to super long posts before if I felt like someone needed to be refuted with God's Word.

You said:
God wants our love. That is what He wants. All of it. When we love God, we keep His commandments.

Right, I believe that, but I am not sure Belief Alone-ism, or the popular teachers in Christianity would really agree with that. Most today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level. You are trying to make a case that all sin is the same. Why? Because this will lead to the false conclusion that many in the sin and still be saved camp want to make. They say it is impossible to obey God and so just believe in Jesus alone for salvation. If you believe differently, then please explain.

You said:
God forgave us because He loved us, not because we loved Him. His love is not conditional.

So you believe future sin is forgiven you?

Ceallaigh · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
On a side note, such long posts rarely get read through. Typically a discussion happens with someone saying something, and then another responding directly to what is being said without writing a book on it.

Yeah but you're unlikely to take apart a huge post or examine umpteen verses to see if they're in context to the subject. Gish gallop ftw.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

MMXX said:
Yeah but you're unlikely to take apart a huge post or examine umpteen verses to see if they're in context to the subject. Gish gallop ftw.

According to Google:

“Gish Gallop is a technique, named after the creationist Duane Gish who employed it, whereby someone argues a cause by hurling as many different half-truths and no-truths into a very short space of time so that their opponent cannot hope to combat each point in real time.”

Source:
who invented the term gish gallop - Google Search

But you can respond back in real time. So Gish Gallop does not simply apply here. A person has all the time in the world to reply back to my post or even partly to it. I also have replied to posts much longer than the one I posted before, too. Information is not our enemy. Do you not do your taxes because it is too much information to handle? Do you not strive to read the Bible because it is too big of a book? To me: This sounds like a person is threatened by information that challenges their belief. The case in Gish Gallop is when a person is in a formal debate where there is a time limit. Also, Gish Gallop is defined as providing many weak arguments. I do not believe any points that I argued are weak because I am using Scripture to back them up. Not even one of these arguments was at least properly addressed with Scripture to show that my opponents were correct in any way.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Please show me the context in his epistle where the apostle John is referring to this kind of sin.
In context, the entire epistle contrasts justifying sin (spiritual death) vs. confessing and obeying (spiritual life). I know. I did the study on the entire 1st epistle before.

Also, in context of what is happening in the chapter, your interpretation does not make any sense. You have merely inserted a meaning into the text without looking at what is going on. In context, a brother is struggling with overcoming a mortal sin and he is seeking help from his fellow brethren in that they would pray for him together so that he may have life (i.e. he would have victory over this sin that is besetting him). This believer is confessing their sin (1 John 1:9) and desiring to overcome it (Which means it is not a sin that leads to death). But it can lead to spiritual death if they just give up and keep on sinning and or believe they cannot help but to sin again. For Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

Are you leaning towards Universalism (that says that all are saved in the end)? If Jesus did not offer us a Provisional Atonement, then that would mean everyone is saved because Jesus died for the sins of the entire world.

Bible Highlighter said:
Can a believer die spiritually if they lie and or look at a woman in lust and they neglected to seek forgiveness of such a sin?

Was King David saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder?

Was Ananias and Sapphira saved?

Did Adam die physically or spiritually the day he ate of the wrong tree? (See: Genesis 2:17).

I don't like to leave any stone unturned sometimes.
A person can reply to only a portion of what I had written or reply to it over bite sized pieces if defending the truth is really that important to them. I know I have replied to super long posts before if I felt like someone needed to be refuted with God's Word.

Right, I believe that, but I am not sure Belief Alone-ism, or the popular teachers in Christianity would really agree with that. Most today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level. You are trying to make a case that all sin is the same. Why? Because this will lead to the false conclusion that many in the sin and still be saved camp want to make. They say it is impossible to obey God and so just believe in Jesus alone for salvation. If you believe differently, then please explain.

So you believe future sin is forgiven you?

What your speaking of is a works-based salvation.

No, I do not hold to universalism. Just because God has forgiven all sin does not mean He can forgive when people reject His forgiveness.

Speaking of which, when a person is holding to works-based salvation they are rejecting Christ's finished work. There is nothing more that can be added to what Christ has already done.

The person who seeks God's forgiveness in return for their own actions is blind to the truth.

I'm not good with answering multiple questions at the same time. If you would like to ask one at a time it would be very helpful.

To answer your last question, yes, all sin is forgiven. My sin is forgiven, your sin is forgiven, all the world's sin is forgiven. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of rejecting Him. That rejection takes on multiple forms.

bling · Mar 25, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I am afraid none of this has ever occured to me and the discipline I know is more real, not just occuring in my thinking.

Do you seeing it hard on God, who at any moment could bring Christ down from the cross, empathizing with Christ while He is on the cross, since God Loves Him so much? From Christ’s most fervent pray in the Garden for any way to avoid going to the cross, tells us Christ personally did not want to go to the cross, but would if there was no other way. God out of empathy for Christ would have also preferred for Christ not to go to the cross, but did it to benefit (discipline) me and still allow me to live.

Empathizing with someone is very real and hard if that person is Loved much and going through a tragic situation.

I was in the same situation as those Jews on Pentecost who were cut to the heart (Acts 2:37), but are you telling me, you felt nothing upon realizing what you personally cause Christ to experience?

Dorothy Mae said:
Discipline is also training, true. I have never experienced a blow to the heart at the thought of what my sin caused Jesus to suffer that I can think of. The first blow to my heart was seeing what a horrible person I was and how terribly wrong my deeds and all of me was or is. I wept and wept.

I can join with you in that experience, but after being a Christian, I also came to the realization my sins were much more significant than I thought at my conversion.

Christ desperately wanted to avoid the cross as seen from His pray and was asking for any other way and I had never considered other ways, but thought about it. If I personally had fulfilled my earthly objective without sinning, then Christ would not have had to go to the cross for me, but would I have also provided “another way?” God could have looked down the corridor of time and seen this “other way”, so Christ would not have to go to the cross. I am personally guilty of cause Christ to go to the cross.

Dorothy Mae said:
There is a better way. Why don't you ask God to show you the depth of your sin, that is, ask Him to show you your heart as he sees it. And don't stop asking until He does. Bring tissues.

Nothing is worse than being the cause of Christ going to the cross.

Dorothy Mae said:
No although you could have easily drawn that conclusion from what I wrote.I wrote the above before reading this. This tells me that God is wanting to show you how significant your sins are as you are already being prepared or desiring this. Do not try mental exercises to do this. You cannot open your own eyes on this one. You must ask God to do this. It will answer the cry of your heart expressed above. You will know the depth of your sin, as much as you are able to bear at the time, and then the overwhelming love and foriveness. You will leave the experience feeling clean. It will not be you doing this. You cannot do this. But you have to ask for it. Some call this heart surgery by God and there is no anthestic.
From other adults? No. it just damages a relationship. It is not the place of parents to discipline a grown man.

Nothing is worse than being the cause of Christ going to the cross.
Prison time for adult criminals should not just be "punishment", but to reabilitate the criminal. Our time on the cross (empathitically) should be a learning experience with Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
What your speaking of is a works-based salvation.

And what is the alternative?
A lazy based fruitless salvation?
Is it a refuse to love God and others type salvation?
You probably are unaware that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-37).

You said:
No, I do not hold to universalism. Just because God has forgiven all sin does not mean He can forgive when people reject His forgiveness.

Yes, and a person can reject God's forgiveness if they do not exercise the proper kind of faith by obeying God and or by not justifying sin with the thinking they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

You said:
Speaking of which, when a person is holding to works-based salvation they are rejecting Christ's finished work. There is nothing more that can be added to what Christ has already done.

Then you don't understand what 1 John 1:7 really says then. The atonement is applied by also walking in the light, too. What does walking in the light mean to you?

The person who seeks God's forgiveness in return for their own actions is blind to the truth.

You mean the truth of a particular church and not the truth of the Bible. How so? Well, I will show you plenty of verses in my next post for you.

You said:
I'm not good with answering multiple questions at the same time. If you would like to ask one at a time it would be very helpful.

My posts are not going anywhere. You can take all day or all week to reply to them if you like. I see a lack of not replying as a person's argument as not being strong enough to handle any kind of real scrutiny. Just answer one question this hour, and then in another few hours, answer the other one. It really is not that hard. I am not asking you to bench press a ton of heavy weights or anything and neither am I asking you to run a mile in under 4 minutes.

You said:
To answer your last question, yes, all sin is forgiven. My sin is forgiven, your sin is forgiven, all the world's sin is forgiven. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of rejecting Him. That rejection takes on multiple forms.

No. Not all people's sins are forgiven. If this was the case, then everyone would be saved (i.e. Universalism). They are only forgiven on a PROVISIONAL BASIS if they meet the terms of the contract in putting forth a proper faith that God desires of us of all.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
What your speaking of is a works-based salvation.

No, I do not hold to universalism. Just because God has forgiven all sin does not mean He can forgive when people reject His forgiveness.

Speaking of which, when a person is holding to works-based salvation they are rejecting Christ's finished work. There is nothing more that can be added to what Christ has already done.

The person who seeks God's forgiveness in return for their own actions is blind to the truth.

I'm not good with answering multiple questions at the same time. If you would like to ask one at a time it would be very helpful.

To answer your last question, yes, all sin is forgiven. My sin is forgiven, your sin is forgiven, all the world's sin is forgiven. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of rejecting Him. That rejection takes on multiple forms.

When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.).

#2. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being savd by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and by properly applying the Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).

Conclusion:

God's grace, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are saved by His grace, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
What your speaking of is a works-based salvation.

No, I do not hold to universalism. Just because God has forgiven all sin does not mean He can forgive when people reject His forgiveness.

Speaking of which, when a person is holding to works-based salvation they are rejecting Christ's finished work. There is nothing more that can be added to what Christ has already done.

The person who seeks God's forgiveness in return for their own actions is blind to the truth.

I'm not good with answering multiple questions at the same time. If you would like to ask one at a time it would be very helpful.

To answer your last question, yes, all sin is forgiven. My sin is forgiven, your sin is forgiven, all the world's sin is forgiven. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of rejecting Him. That rejection takes on multiple forms.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
And what is the alternative?
A lazy based fruitless salvation?

There is only one Salvation, there are many alternatives to it.

The Salvation that brings Life is by grace through Faith. God's covenant with us through the shed(past tense) blood of His Son.

The sin that leads to death rejects this.

[Heb 10:29 ESV] How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
What your speaking of is a works-based salvation.

No, I do not hold to universalism. Just because God has forgiven all sin does not mean He can forgive when people reject His forgiveness.

Speaking of which, when a person is holding to works-based salvation they are rejecting Christ's finished work. There is nothing more that can be added to what Christ has already done.

The person who seeks God's forgiveness in return for their own actions is blind to the truth.

I'm not good with answering multiple questions at the same time. If you would like to ask one at a time it would be very helpful.

To answer your last question, yes, all sin is forgiven. My sin is forgiven, your sin is forgiven, all the world's sin is forgiven. The only sin God cannot forgive is the sin of rejecting Him. That rejection takes on multiple forms.

I don't see any teaching that says to trust in the finished work of Christ alone by Jesus and His followers. Trusting in the finished work of the cross and nothing else is an invention of man. You will not find such words in the Bible. When looking at the whole counsel of God's Word, the Lord our God requires a life of holiness after we are saved by God's grace. In fact, it is a call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). For what does God's grace teach us in Titus 2:11-12? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid (Romans 6:1-2).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
There is only one Salvation, there are many alternatives to it.

The Salvation that brings Life is by grace through Faith. God's covenant with us through the shed(past tense) blood of His Son.

The sin that leads to death rejects this.

[Heb 10:29 ESV] How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

To have the blood to be continually applied to your life,
you also have to read and believe 1 John 1:7, too.

What does walk in the light mean to you?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
There is only one Salvation, there are many alternatives to it.

The Salvation that brings Life is by grace through Faith. God's covenant with us through the shed(past tense) blood of His Son.

The sin that leads to death rejects this.

[Heb 10:29 ESV] How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Again, this is in context to willfully sinning (Hebrews 10:26), and it is not in rejecting the finished work of the cross as you would like it to be.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

There is no doubt that God will work through His children's lives. We are not to reject this work in us.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
There is no doubt that God will work through His children's lives. We are not to reject this work in us.

But the problem is when a Pastor tells a child that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and nothing else and this child never sees this pastor again. The child can easily believe that this Pastor is teaching a license to sin based on the little information he has given the child. This child could turn out to be the next George Sodini or Kenneth Nally.

See this article here to learn more about them:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

In other words, the message itself can potentially lead others to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 25, 2021

Nathan@work said:
There is no doubt that God will work through His children's lives. We are not to reject this work in us.

If you are not saved by living holy or not sinning, or not doing anything good (after being saved by God's grace), but you are only saved by the finished work of Christ, then you can live like the devil and just believe on Jesus for salvation. But we both know that the Bible does not teach such a thing. The Bible teaches that the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose of making us holy (Ephesians 5:25-27) and to redeem us from iniquity and to be zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). We know God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). So there is no version of grace that teaches that we can sin and still be saved on any level. We must live a godly life as a part of God's grace.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
To have the blood to be continually applied to your life,
you also have to read and believe 1 John 1:7, too.

What does walk in the light mean to you?

Light expels darkness. When you walk in the light, you are letting the light show you the path your on.

God is light. He directs our paths.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But the problem is when a Pastor tells a child that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and nothing else and this child never sees this pastor again. The child can easily believe that this Pastor is teaching a license to sin based on the little information he has given the child. This child could turn out to be the next George Sodini or Kenneth Nally.

See this article here to learn more about them:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

In other words, the message itself can potentially lead others to turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

I would agree that OSAS is a false doctrine. It actually is based on works.

Nathan@work · Mar 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
If you are not saved by living holy or not sinning, or not doing anything good (after being saved by God's grace), but you are only saved by the finished work of Christ, then you can live like the devil and just believe on Jesus for salvation. But we both know that the Bible does not teach such a thing. The Bible teaches that the reason Christ died for us was for the purpose of making us holy (Ephesians 5:25-27) and to redeem us from iniquity and to be zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). We know God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). So there is no version of grace that teaches that we can sin and still be saved on any level. We must live a godly life as a part of God's grace.

You actually cannot. The Spirit inside us will not let us live in the way we want. The person who is living the way they want alone is doing so alone - void of the Spirit.

God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Always ready :)

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Always ready :)

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Always ready :)

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