David Bentley Hart on Hell

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The second death is the death of the soul. Death does not mean spending an eternity in hell.

The second death is the death of death. It's an error to conflate the warning in Mt 10:28 and the destruction of the spiritual enemies (of which death is the last) in Rev 20:14. The passage in Matthew is directed to disciples and Jesus continues by reassuring them that God loves them too much to destroy them - every hair numbered (Matthew 10:30).

The dead who are turfed into the LoF (the divine mikvah) at the judgement (Revelation 20:15) are cleansed of the leprosy of death. Although it will hurt the unprepared (Revelation 2:11), it's the separation from the love of sin that must be endured to overcome (Revelation 21:7) for the great universal renovation (Revelation 21:5), the restoration of all things, the omega plan which is salvation of all (eg Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-10, Matthew 19:28, Ephesians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15:28, Revelation 1:17, Revelation 15:4, Revelation 22:13).

Once death is defeated, what remains? I'll give you a clue. It's super-abundant, and its tree leaves are even used to heal the repentant nations (Revelation 22:2) who have emerged from the fire worshipful (Revelation 21:24) through the ever-open Pearly Gates (Revelation 21:25), perhaps glancing back at the wormy carcasses of their old flesh suits burning away (Isaiah 66:24), gone up in smoke (Revelation 14:11) to be forgotten.

Gehenna is for saving souls, not destroying them. Hence "the GOOD NEWS" (may have heard of it?).
 
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Clare73

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Christ's teaching in Matthew 10:28 seems very clear to what happens to the soul.

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
Both death and "hell itself" are cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is the death of the soul. Death does not mean spending an eternity in hell.
I was raised to believe in an eternal hell but having read for myself these scriptures and knowing throughout most of the bible that the wages of sin is "death" I can't believe I even believed as I did once before. And many times when I hadn't even studied the complete bible for myself growing up I would wonder about it.
The wages of sin is physical death of the body. Our spirit is immortal.
 
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Clare73

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The second death is the death of death. It's an error to conflate the warning in Mt 10:28 and the destruction of the spiritual enemies (of which death is the last) in Rev 20:14. The passage in Matthew is directed to disciples and Jesus continues by reassuring them that God loves them too much to destroy them - every hair numbered (Matthew 10:30).

The dead who are turfed into the LoF (the divine mikvah) at the judgement (Revelation 20:15) are cleansed of the leprosy of death. Although it will hurt the unprepared (Revelation 2:11), it's the separation from the love of sin that must be endured to overcome (Revelation 21:7) for the great universal renovation (Revelation 21:5), the restoration of all things, the omega plan which is salvation of all (eg Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-10, Matthew 19:28, Ephesians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15:28, Revelation 1:17, Revelation 15:4, Revelation 22:13).

Once death is defeated, what remains? I'll give you a clue. It's super-abundant, and its tree leaves are even used to heal the repentant nations (Revelation 22:2) who have emerged from the fire worshipful (Revelation 21:24) through the ever-open Pearly Gates (Revelation 21:25), perhaps glancing back at the wormy carcasses of their old flesh suits burning away (Isaiah 66:24), gone up in smoke (Revelation 14:11) to be forgotten.
Gehenna is for saving souls, not destroying them. Hence "the GOOD NEWS" (may have heard of it?).
And here we have the fruit of "Holy Spirit led" interpretation of the word of God written;
i.e., Gehenna is good news!

Yikes!

The good news is salvation from Gehenna, not to it.

If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?
 
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Der Alte

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<quote=Shrewd manager>The second death is the death of death. It's an error to conflate the warning in Mt 10:28 and the destruction of the spiritual enemies (of which death is the last) in Rev 20:14. The passage in Matthew is directed to disciples and Jesus continues by reassuring them that God loves them too much to destroy them - every hair numbered (Matthew 10:30).
The dead who are turfed into the LoF (the divine mikvah) at the judgement (Revelation 20:15) are cleansed of the leprosy of death. Although it will hurt the unprepared (Revelation 2:11), it's the separation from the love of sin that must be endured to overcome (Revelation 21:7) for the great universal renovation (Revelation 21:5), the restoration of all things, the omega plan which is salvation of all (eg Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-10, Matthew 19:28, Ephesians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15:28, Revelation 1:17, Revelation 15:4, Revelation 22:13).
Once death is defeated, what remains? I'll give you a clue. It's super-abundant, and its tree leaves are even used to heal the repentant nations (Revelation 22:2) who have emerged from the fire worshipful (Revelation 21:24) through the ever-open Pearly Gates (Revelation 21:25), perhaps glancing back at the wormy carcasses of their old flesh suits burning away (Isaiah 66:24), gone up in smoke (Revelation 14:11) to be forgotten.
Gehenna is for saving souls, not destroying them. Hence "the GOOD NEWS" (may have heard of it?).
</QUOTE>​
The prison recidivism rate in the U.S. is 70+%. Penal correction does not correct.
Please explain how the multitudes who are , hurt, burned, etc. emerge from this punishment will be filled with warm fuzzies and love God etc. etc.
 
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JulieB67

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The wages of sin is physical death of the body. Our spirit is immortal.

Christ says do not fear someone that can kill our physical body but can not kill the soul but fear him that will destroy "both" body and soul in hell.

He's saying we shouldn't fear the death of our physical body but should fear the death of our soul.

What do you think Christ is saying in this verse?
 
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Ceallaigh

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And here we have the fruit of "Holy Spirit led" interpretation of the word of God written;
i.e., Gehenna is good news!

Yikes!

The good news is salvation from Gehenna, not to it.

If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?

Isn't the gospel about Jesus putting to right Adam's wrong, conquering death/sin, and removing the barrier (Matthew 27:51) between man and God?
 
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Clare73

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Christ says do not fear someone that can kill our physical body but can not kill the soul but fear him that will destroy "both" body and soul in hell.

He's saying we shouldn't fear the death of our physical body but should fear the death of our soul.

What do you think Christ is saying in this verse?
Killing the soul is what is called the second death elsewhere.
 
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Clare73

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Isn't the gospel about Jesus putting to right Adam's wrong, conquering death/sin, and removing the barrier (Matthew 27:51) between man and God?
Removing the barrier only for those who believe and trust in his atoning work for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice (John 3:18, John 3:36).
 
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Ceallaigh

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Removing the barrier only for those who believe and trust in his atoning work for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice (John 3:18, John 3:36).

You asked "If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?" And that's what I answered. There are several reasons for the gospel that are experienced right here on earth. That's probably why the apostles didn't say anything about heaven or hell when they brought thousands to Christ in Acts.
 
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Clare73

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You asked "If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?" And that's what I answered. There are several reasons for the gospel that are experienced right here on earth. That's probably why the apostles didn't say anything about heaven or hell when they brought thousands to Christ in Acts.
Okay, I didn't realize that is what you were addressing.

But the thousands in Acts were not Gentiles, they were Jews, believers in God and keepers of the law, in Jerusalem for their mandatory appearance there for the observance of the feast of Weeks.
They just transferred from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Okay, I didn't realize that is what you were addressing.

But the thousands in Acts were not Gentiles, they were Jews, believers in God and keepers of the law, in Jerusalem for their mandatory appearance there for the observance of the feast of Weeks.
They just transferred from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant.

What I was addressing was your question of "If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?" The answer is, the Gospel is far more than just about escaping eternal damnation - or in other words, if there was no eternal damnation, there would still be plenty of reasons for the Gospel.
 
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Clare73

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What I was addressing was your question of "If no one is in jeopardy of eternal damnation, and all are saved, why the gospel at all?" The answer is, the Gospel is far more than just about escaping eternal damnation - or in other words, if there was no eternal damnation, there would still be plenty of reasons for the Gospel.
But doesn't the gospel benefit only those who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice?

And those are the ones redeemed from eternal damnation.
 
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Ceallaigh

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But doesn't the gospel benefit only those who believe in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right standing with God's justice?

And those are the ones redeemed from eternal damnation.

That doesn't change what you highlighted; if there was no eternal damnation, there would still be plenty of reasons for the Gospel.
 
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Clare73

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That doesn't change what you highlighted; if there was no eternal damnation, there would still be plenty of reasons for the Gospel.
Help me out. . .name a few you have in mind.
 
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A lot of of the discussion on here about hell is based on theoretical theology based on scriptures, who said what and when, but the article which asks 'why do people believe in hell' does not necessarily pertain to Christians or any religion.
Hell can exist for many whether they believe in it or not, you could say that it is simply confronting the corruption of your soul at and / or beyond death.
And unless you have actually died and been brought back to life again as is increasingly common these days due to medical intervention, and told the tale about what was at the other side for you, then it is only a theory, unless you take the Bible to be literally true and not open to interpretation, but if that were true, then why bother with any discussion about what it actually means?

I witnessed my wicked and unrepentant father having repeated nightmares about going to hell before he died, he was totally unreligious, now you can make of that what you want, but for me it supports what I have read in the Bible about hell, which makes it more of a reality than an academic discussion for me, and should put the fear of God into anyone who has witnessed it.
 
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Clare73

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Isn't the gospel about Jesus putting to right Adam's wrong, conquering death/sin, and removing the barrier (Matthew 27:51) between man and God?
Okay. . .got it.

Adam's rebellion, death/sin and the barrier between man and God are all
the result of sin, the penalty for which justice requires be paid first in order to right Adam's wrong, conquer death/sin and remove the barrier between man and God.

And that penalty for sin is divine punishment; i.e. our condemnation in Gehenna.

There can be no sin without divine justice of punishment, or God would not be just.

The only way to separate sin from its punishment is to pay the punishment, then God can in justice right Adam's wrong, conquer death/sin and remove the barrier between man and God.

There can be no righting Adam's wrong, conquering of death/sin and removing the barrier between man and God without first paying the debt (punishment) due.

So there is no way in divine justice to have a problem of sin "to conquer" without the punishment of sin to go with it, which is why the "good news" of the gospel is that the punishment (Gehenna) has been dealt with, so that now the problem can also be dealt with.
 
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Der Alte

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Christ says do not fear someone that can kill our physical body but can not kill the soul but fear him that will destroy "both" body and soul in hell.
He's saying we shouldn't fear the death of our physical body but should fear the death of our soul.
What do you think Christ is saying in this verse?
What God created He can certainly destroy but not one single verse says God has or will destroy even one soul in hell.
And just for fun the word usually translated "destroy" is also used for spoiled wine and food, the fading beauty of flowers, the lost sheep, the prodigal son, death by sea and snakes etc.
 
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Saint Steven

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Gehenna is for saving souls, not destroying them. Hence "the GOOD NEWS" (may have heard of it?).
Good news for those that are "down in the dumps". - lol

I hope that translates well enough. To me, the term "down in the dumps" means feeling sad. And of course, a dump is a garbage site.
 
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Der Alte

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Saint Steven said:
Good news for those that are "down in the dumps". - lol
I hope that translates well enough. To me, the term "down in the dumps" means feeling sad. And of course, a dump is a garbage site
.
Unfortunately there was never a dump or garbage site associated with Ge Hinnom/Gehenna.
 
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