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I don't agree to disagree. I never understood your view, and I am not convinced you understood mine.
But it is fine if we do not continue.
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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox
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I don't agree to disagree. I never understood your view, and I am not convinced you understood mine.
But it is fine if we do not continue.
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Great question.
I see three things there.
1. Some gentiles have the Law written on the heart. And it is shown if that is the case, by what they do (like the Matt 7 rule of Christ for good trees vs bad trees - by their fruits they are known).
At the end of Romans 2 Paul explains in more detail how that law gets written there.
2. Their conscience bears witness to that change of new heart condition.
3. Their thoughts accuse or excuse them - essentially held accountable based on what they knew.
4. All of this comes together in the future judgment - which is a bit part of the Gospel message.
==========================
In the future judgment (future to Romans 2) - no bad trees are declared good and no good trees are declared bad. The judgment as Romans 2:4-16 points out - only states what is already the case with each individual and relies on the fact that the outward actions indicate if the person is born-again or not, is the new creation or not.
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Yes and I also agree that whether pre-or-post harvest God is king of the entire universe - but I think the parable focus on giving orders to the servants regarding tares vs wheat and the danger of losing wheat if tares are removed too soon - shows issues regarding this sinful planet and those non-angel servants that are in a position to see some tares and who might try to remove them too early.
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Ok, so let's refine a bit more. Do you think the kingdom of the Father, and the kingdom of Christ are different things, and the kingdom of Christ is only on the earth? There are wheat and tares in Christ's kingdom (visible church), and there are wheat and tares out of Christ's kingdom? (invisible church and non-professing wicked)? Or does Christ share the kingdom with His Father?
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If the focus of the parable is the servants, why are they the only ones not identified?
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Ok, I think I agree that it is "shown" they have the law on the heart by their actions.
Now do you take this part of it to mean that all people know what is required based on nature, or only some?
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
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"do by nature" --
NASB - says
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,
Those who know nothing about Christianity, the Trinity etc - yet are born-again, are under the New Covenant - and receive the benefit of God's Law written on the heart. But they do not have the written Word of God , so while they have some benefits they do not have access to every blessing.
Rom 3 says this -
Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First, that they were entrusted with the actual words of God. So then as Christ said "you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free". The Word of God puts light in the world John 1 - But men love darkness rather than light.
None of this argues that nobody needs/benefits from the Truth revealed in the written Word of God. Saying that would be like saying "nobody benefits from knowing about the actual life of Christ on Earth - the Savior of mankind". If all you knew was that grass comes from dirt and water is good to drink and you follow the inner voice of the Holy Spirit to be kind to others -- you live and die and are saved - vs someone who reads about the life of Christ and has a prayer life informed and empowered by claiming the promises of God,,, who then dies and is also saved.
Knowing all that Truth would matter.
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I don't take Rom 2:14-16 to mean that an entire Bible is written on the heart at the moment of the New Covenant - new Birth. I don't think you think that either.
The Law of God is written on the heart at the point the person comes under the New Covenant - and that includes "Love your neighbor as yourself" - so then the New Covenant Christian - Peter in Acts 10 has the Law of God written on his heart - and still does not "know" to accept gentiles as his brother in Christ until he "learns the lesson" of Acts 10 at Cornelius' house.
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In Luke 12 the servants are humans on earth - the people in God's church - some faithful and some not.
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In my list of definitions - there are no tares in the invisible church of Christ because by definition that term is for those not in any church ( not even Christian at all) - who are "wheat" ( the true followers of Christ)
The visible church of Christ on Earth - is the one that has wheat and tares where the person is clearly a Christian in terms of their faith and they belong to some congregation of at least some sort.
"Kingdom of the Father" on Earth and "Kingdom of Christ" on Earth are the same thing.
"Kingdom of the Father" in the entire Universe - and "Kingdom of Christ" in the entire universe are also presumably the same thing.
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LoveGodsWord
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No. These scriptures are only references to God's church in the world just as "the children of the kingdom” (the Church) are in the world. If you need scriptures showing “the children of the kingdom” are God's Church and the tares are those sown in with “the children of the kingdom” (the church) I can add some here but there is not many direct ones.
I think we agree in the parable of the wheat and the tares that…
1. Jesus is the Sower that sowed the good seed which the children of the kingdom "Matthew 13:38
2. The good seed (wheat) are the children of the kingdom - Matthew 13:38
3. The bad seed (tares or weeds) represent the children of the wicked one - Matthew 13:37
4. Sown by the devil Matthew 13:39
5. In this parable the children of God (wheat) and the children of the devil (tares) grow together side by side not separated until the harvest – Matthew 13:30
6. The harvest is the end of the world - Matthew 13:4
For me, the children of the kingdom here represent God’s true Church what else can it represent? The tares sown in alongside the wheat in the world represent those in the Church that are the children of the devil false believers, false teachers, those who have a form of Godliness but deny God’s power of salvation and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods’ Word and choose to reject it in order to practice sin *Hebrews 10:26-31.
..............
What is Gods' plan for the "children of the kingdom" (God’s Church)?
Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.
1 Peter 2:9, [9] But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Peter here is referring to Exodus 19:6 and agrees that the church is God’s kingdom on earth. Therefore “the children of the kingdom” are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word who are to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.
Isaiah 9:6-7, [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given: and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [7], Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Who are these scriptures in Isaiah talking about and who is His Kingdom?
Danial 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
What kingdom is Daniel talking about and who are the children of the kingdom?
Daniel 7:17-18, [17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.[18], But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
For me it is pretty clear here that the children of the kingdom are those who believe and follow Gods’ Word.
What are the children of the kingdom seeking?
Matthew 6:33 But seek you first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
..............
SUMMARY: The application to those in Gods' kingdom on earth is always to those who believe and follow Gods' Word (the church on earth) or those who profess to believe and follow God's Word (wheat or tares). The kingdom of God starts with the "children of the kingdom" which is God's Church which is in the world
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THE TARES ARE GROWING SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM (the Church) IN THE WORLD AND SEPARATED AT THE HARVEST
Matthew 8:11-12, [11] And I say to you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.[12], But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness (the tares or disobedient in the Church): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
(Note here the second coming is the context of Matthew 7:21-23 the harvest is the end of the world the separation of the wheat (true believers children of the kingdom) and the tares (false believers children of the devil who profess to be in God’s kingdom on earth)- Matthew 13:30)
WHO ARE THE TARES GROWING ALONG SIDE THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM OF MATTHEW (Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43)?
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 [29], For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [30], Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
2 Peter 2:1-3 [1], But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. [2], And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [3], And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
2 Timothy 3:1-5, [1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.[2], For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3], Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4], Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5], Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
..........
SUMMARY: The tares take many forms in the Church, from those who might believe God but do not follow His Words to those who are false teachers leading people away from God and his Word. One thing however they all have in common is that they are together growing alongside the “children of the kingdom (Gods true believers in the Church of the world)
...........
I believe the scriptures provided here and elsewhere in other posts already prove your claims that the children of the kingdom in Matthew 13 is not the Church on earth is not biblical.
Hope this is helpful
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LoveGodsWord
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You of course are free to believe and to do whatever you wish. I do not judge you. We all answer only to God come judgement day so we should all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling according to the scriptures. Not sure why you did not understand my view and position as I believe I have shown it from the scriptures. I believe I understood your view so please correct me if I am wrong.
Is not your position that the "children of the kingdom" are not the Church that is in the world up to the second coming and your trying to argue this point (which I believe is against scripture) because your trying to claim that what the SOP wrote in COL is against scripture in regards to the application of the parable of the wheat and tares to the Church on earth all through time prior to the harvest (2nd coming)?
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HISTORICAL EARLY REFORMATION VIEW OF THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM IS THE CHURCH
As posted earlier it is not just SDA's that believe the "Children of the Kingdom" represent God's Church on earth and that the tares are also included in the Church that is in the world that will be separated at the harvest. This was a common scriptural view also held by most of the early reformers of the reformation. I have shared the scriptural view already in regards to the wheat and the tares and the children of the kingdom representing the church.
You may also want to see if you can get a copy of the following Historical reference.
Chibi, A. (2015). The Wheat and the Tares: Doctrines of the Church in the Reformation, 1500-1590. Cambridge, United Kingdom: The Lutterworth Press.
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Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,.... Meaning himself, whose ministers the angels are; who wait upon him, and are at his beck and command; even the thousand thousands that minister unto him; these will be sent forth by his orders, into the several parts of the world, where he has any churches, or an interest, and they shall gather out of his kingdom: the Gospel church, over which Christ is king, where he rules and governs in the hearts of his people; and who are cheerfully and willingly obedient to his laws, under the influence of his Spirit and grace: but all who are in the visible Gospel church state, are not such; some are wicked and rebellious, and though they are suffered to continue, yet not always; for if not removed by censures and excommunications, they will be at last by angels; who will separate them from the saints: even all things that offend; who are scandals to Christ, his church, and Gospel, by their wicked principles, or infamous practices; and who give offense, not only to God, and his righteous law, but lay stumbling blocks in the way of the children of God, and are the authors of divisions and offenses among them: and them that do iniquity; that do nothing else but iniquity; and who, though they profess to be religious persons, are secretly, or openly, workers of iniquity; and are even doing iniquity, in and whilst they are professing religion.
...............
Is what I have stated in regards to your position correct or not?
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No, I do not either, just seeing where we agree, or do not. I am trying to discern what the law is for gentiles, since it is not the entire law, given they do not have circumcision.
So in chapter 1 from 18 to the end we see the natural revelation which leaves gentiles without excuse.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
But we also see a progressive turning away from God to idols, to worship of creation rather than creator, and degeneration to lust, in a way that abandons natural design.
At the end it states:
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Do you see all people in all cultures having some understanding that being disobedient to parents, haughty, murder, covetousness, etc. are wrong things to do?
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The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment John 16. So that is all convicted, and not just saints. So yes I agree that infinite power and knowledge touches all of mankind and they have a tinge of conscience having "at least some" understanding of what is right vs wrong.
So now let's look at what the Bible says is the reason that all humans don't agree on that standard of right vs wrong.
================================
Christ said that some people do not have enough access to truth (are blind) to be convicted on every point of truth, and they have no sin in that regard.
John 9
40 Those who were with Him from the Pharisees heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now that you maintain, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
James 4:17 "to him who KNOWs to do right..."
John 16:1“These things I have spoken to you so that you will not be led into sin. 2 They will ban you from the synagogue, yet an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering a service to God. 3 These things they will do because they have not known the Father nor Me.
So then Paul's conscience dictated that he persecute Christians to serve God - but that was sin.
=================================
Paul says some are "seared in the conscience" so while at one time they knew enough to fully distinguish between truth and error they no longer have that ability.
1 Tim 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron
He says they "perish" in the end "because they did not receive a love of the Truth so as to be saved"
2 Thess 2: whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.
====================
Convicting by the Holy Spirit "convicting the world of sin" is not the same as the New Covenant benefit of a new heart.
That conviction is not the Law of God written on the heart. So while Hitler would have been convicted of sin at some level - he did not have the law of God written on the heart since that only happens for a born-again saint under the New Covenant.
It is only the born-again that can be "obedient from the heart" Rom 7
================ New Covenant: Law written on the heart
In Rom 2 "they show" the law of God written on the heart as they walk in obedience which Romans 8:4-11 says is only the case with saints.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them
So also with those who do have a Bible and are born again - the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant - and their conscience does help to guide them to feel convicted when they do wrong.
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And in the story of the lost sheep people of God are sheep.
And in the lost coin, they are coins.
But in this parable they are already identified as good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom.
And they are not planted in the field (world). They are discussing removing things from the field. They certainly have more in common with the reapers, also working for the land owner, than they do with the crops they are talking about tending to.
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I addressed this above. But you didn't address my question. If the focus of the parable is the servants. Why are they not identified?
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They are not in the "invisible church". They are the tares in the world, who are not professed believers in God. Unless you think those are not referenced at all. But since you seem to suggest at the end of the parable all the righteous and wicked are indicated, they have to be a part of it. Let me know if I misunderstand.
And is this the only group you see referenced in the parable? No invisible church, no wicked outside the church, etc.?
The Father and the Son have a kingdom that is over all things. It is the kingdom of heaven.
And the idea of a kingdom on earth is part of what is making this so complicated to discuss. It is not stated in the parable. In the parable the field is the world. The world is obviously part of the kingdom of God, as is heaven, as is all creation.
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This is why conversation with you is frustrating. I asked you many times to define what you meant. You posted a bunch of things that didn't state what you meant, and some that could be seen to conflict with what you meant. You posted some that referred to a local church, which may or may not contain only those in the true church. I asserted this was not clear, and you said it was clear.
I provided possible definitions, and even asked you to write your own. You declined all that.
Then when I am ready to quit because I cannot understand your position, you state your position simply in a way you could have done all along.
So you appear to be saying that the sons of the kingdom are all of those who are saved by the Lord, in all times, whether in the visible church or not. All the saved, right?
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I have stated that my position is that the sons of the kingdom are all of those who have trusted in God and are saved, true believers, through all time.
However, the debate does need clarification on terminology, such as whether we are talking about the church in the sense of all true believers, or the visible church, which also includes those who are not true believers.
My position has been that the story relates that the field is the world. The end of the parable relates the second coming. All of the righteous of God are saved. All of those of the evil one are destroyed.
The introduction of discussion of the visible church with false believers is not the point. The parable deals with true followers of God and true followers of Satan as a whole.
The wheat are wheat all the way through. The tares are tares all the way through. There is no confusion as to who is what. The servants identify immediately who is what. The problem is they may uproot the wheat with the tares. The solution is to wait until the harvest when all will be harvested.
In other words, it is relating God's solution to the problem of evil, or the Great Controversy theme, if you prefer. God does not immediately destroy sinners. Instead, at the harvest, all are judged. The righteous are the sons of the kingdom because they are in the kingdom reigning with their Father.
The wicked are the sons of the evil one, and are burned with him.
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So in my comment above I state that the invisible church of Christ has no tares since by definition the thing that is "invisible" is wheat that is not associated with any "visible" local congregation.
As I understand it -
Wheat are born again saints. No matter where you find them
Tares are those not born again - they are the lost. No matter where you find them.
No tares are taken to heaven.
Will add this clarification in my post on defining terms.
so it now looks like this -
============================
At the end - at the second coming - all wheat goes to heaven and all tares are burned. So all are accounted for.
Yes that much is agreed - all tares no matter where they are - are accounted for and all the wheat is accounted for - no matter where it is found.
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