Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

LoveGodsWord · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
No, it was not answered. You want to say it is, but it was not.

How do I know? Because I ask you a question and you choose to avoid it by asking me a question.

I’ll ask again, does God want us to have the knowledge of good and evil - when His very first commandment was not to eat from that tree?

Has God changed His mind?

Nope. The scriptures provided answer your question already. It is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is and shows us we are all sinners in need of God's grace and salvation (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25). Of course God wants us post fall to have a knowledge of what good and evil is. He gave it to us through his Word. Now what is it in the scriptures shared with you here that are Gods' Words and not my words that you disagree with?

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I gave you the answers to the question your asking now in the scriptures in the post you are responding from. What do you think they mean?

I told you what they mean, but you avoid the truth. Why?

Do you think you will trap me somehow by asking questions in response to my questions?

Do not be afraid of the answers. They are truth and light. They will help you see.

God wants you to see the truth. You do not need to fight it.

fhansen · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I know exactly what it means.

It means those who think they are righteous do not want to see their filthy rags.

And yet Jesus doesn't want us to remain unrighteous, to remain sinners, but 'to go, and sin no more.' (John 8:11). He wants us to wash our robes (Rev 22:14), so they won't be filthy anymore. And He gives us that power.
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"This is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:5-7

Nathan@work said:
Which crowd are you in? Do you believe you know what God did not want us to know, or do you understand your nothing before God and cannot do anything good?

We can do nothing good, on our own. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)
But "...but with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26)
"I can do all this through Him who gives me strength." Phil 4:13

That's the main message of the gospel, and is a point that Adam had totally missed in Eden, of his need for God. Man is reconciled to God by Christ as he re-enters fellowship with God via faith. A beginning point is to be convicted of sin. Then God does a work in us:
“I will put My law in their minds
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Nope. The scriptures provided answer your question already. It is through the law that we have a knowledge of what sin is and shows us we are all sinners in need of God's grace and salvation (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25). Of course God wants us post fall to have a knowledge of what good and evil is. He gave it to us through his Word. Now what is it in the scriptures shared with you here that are Gods' Words and not my words that you disagree with?

God has not changed His mind.

On one side you say Gods laws are eternal, and with the same breath you say they are subject to man.

Nathan@work · Mar 23, 2021

fhansen said:
And yet Jesus doesn't want us to remain unrighteous, to remain sinners, but 'to go, and sin no more.' (John 8:11). He wants us to wash our robes (Rev 22:14), so they won't be filthy anymore. And he give us that power.
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:5-7

We can do nothing good, on our own. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)
But "...but with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26)
"I can do all this through him who gives me strength." Phil 4:13

That's the main message of the gospel, and is a point that Adam had totally missed in Eden. Man is reconciled to God by Christ as he re-enters fellowship with God via faith. A beginning point is to be convicted of sin. Then God does a work in us:
“I will put My law in their minds
and write it on their hearts." Jer 31:33

We are not unrighteousness before Him when we stand in His presence wearing Christ’s righteousness.

To stand before Him any other way is to be naked.

Sin is being imperfect. To not sin is to be perfect.

The only way to be perfect is to be dead to ourselves and alive to Him.

The law, the perfect law, was brought in to testify against us - to bring death to us.

It is there to testify to Christ - to show us His life.

We cannot know the full goodness of the law anymore than we can look at God Himself.

He wants to work in us, through us, for us - because that pleases Him.

He wants us to follow Him - not walk ahead or beside - follow. You cannot follow Him if your making the choices.

fhansen · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Serious question here. Do you think God made a mistake by putting man in a place where he could disobey Him?

Do you think God did not know what would happen?

If God knew what would happen by giving us free will, when He created us perfect to begin with, why all of a sudden do you think He expects something different now?

Could it be, all of this, is to teach us something about Him? Why do we always make it about us?

We don't. He makes it about us. It's a very BIG thing He did for us-through His Son, due to His love. The human will is the prize, so to speak, and that's why He allowed Adam to fall to begin with. So yes, He knew Adam would Fall and had a plan for it from the beginning. He wants us to learn something in this quasi-exile from Him into a pigsty, relatively speaking, where sin and darkness and falsehood and evil prevail, due to the human autonomy Adam preferred, alongside of the good innate in creation so that we may come to hate the one and cherish the other, to finally cherish the ultimate Good and source of all good when He comes calling and so run like prodigals back home to Him.

Here we might develop a hunger and thirst for truth and righteousness in a world that often has little regard for either. So that we may learn for ourselves, the hard way, that Adam was wrong, as he's presumably learned by now. So that we may no longer will to disobey and to sin, accepting grace, embracing the only One who can save us from sin and death when He comes knocking at our door.

fhansen · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
We are not unrighteousness before Him when we stand in His presence wearing Christ’s righteousness.

To stand before Him any other way is to be naked.

Sin is being imperfect. To not sin is to be perfect.

“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” 1 John 3:7-8

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

God ultimately wants but does not demand perfection now-only that we're on that path, the "journey to perfection" as it's been called. Do you think we can persistently remain serious sinners and still enter heaven, as if our continuous humility in seeing ourselves as worthless sinful wretches impresses Him after all His Son did, and after the power of the Spirit that He now gives us as a result to overcome sin, to become the something He's created us to be, that He wants us to be?
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7

Nathan@work said:
The only way to be perfect is to be dead to ourselves and alive to Him.

The law, the perfect law, was brought in to testify against us - to bring death to us.

It is there to testify to Christ - to show us His life.

We cannot know the full goodness of the law anymore than we can look at God Himself.

He wants to work in us, through us, for us - because that pleases Him.

He wants us to follow Him - not walk ahead or beside - follow. You cannot follow Him if your making the choices.

Yes, a novel, somewhat skewed gospel, unfortunately common and embraced by many in these latter times. Overcoming sin is a struggle, and one we won't always succeed at as we'll backslide at times. But overcome it with the help of grace we must, striving ahead more than slipping backwards in the overall scheme of things. And when we do slip, a change of heart with repentance will obtain the forgiveness that is always at hand. The law convicts us of sin, so that we may turn to Him who can overcome sin in us, so that we will not earn its wages.

LoveGodsWord · Mar 23, 2021

Nathan@work said:
God has not changed His mind.

On one side you say Gods laws are eternal, and with the same breath you say they are subject to man.

No, God does not change His mind and no, I have said no such thing. What is it in the scriptures shared with you earlier that you do not understand in relation to what I have shared with you from the scriptures showing that God's law gives us the knowledge of what good and evil; sin and righteousness is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172?

SabbathBlessings · Mar 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
But I do keep the Sabbath day holy!

I understand that it appears to you that I am tweaking God's commandment.

I'm sure we agree that we are bought with a price, that we don't belong to ourselves.

Is there work that you do that you do just for yourself, and that God has no part in? It's an honest question, I don't mean to sound snarky in any way.

After re-reading your question, I am not sure I understand completely what you’re asking, but I am going to answer what I think you mean and you can correct me if I misunderstood.

I don’t understand what it means “that God has no part in” but I do have a job that is not dedicated to religious services (pastor, church assistant etc.) but my job, which pays my bills is an honest way to make a living, I am not required to work on Sabbath and I give 10% minimum back to God through tithe on all my earnings. Jesus was a carpenter, so as long as you are making an honest living and it doesn’t interfere with working on God’s Sabbath and you’re giving back to God, I think it’s okay to pick out a career choice that aligns with your talents. I don’t think it’s a good idea to work a job that will cause a lot of temptation, like for example working in Hollywood or at a bar etc. The Holy Spirit has corrected me in my career choice in the past and its always a great idea to listen. I seek God daily and He comes first above everything else and you need a healthy balance.

I originally thought you asked a different question. Let me know if this answers the question you had in mind. God bless.

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

BobRyan said:
True.

For all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

I think so since at the time of the New Earth not only do we have the creation of Earth Sabbath memorial of Gen 2:1-3 - but we will have the creation of New Earth of Rev 21:1-3 -- so two memorial events as Isaiah 66:23 points out would be expected.

Thanks for your answer!

It's not something I have a strong opinion about.

I just thought it was interesting, because many people on here have been talking about how the shadow laws have ended. I assume that the new Moon festival is one of the Shadow laws, but I don't know for sure.

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I do not agree they received the continual knowledge, only that they were, at that time, aware of it.

God put them out of the Garden so they no longer had access to it. Nor the tree of life.

If you cannot eat from something, continually, you cannot receive it’s benefit.

Do you think that feeding on Christs flesh, and drinking His blood is a once and done thing?

Do you think God wants us to have the knowledge of good and evil now?

Well that's an interesting perspective I'd never thought of before. I think I'll ponder that for a while

Nathan@work · Mar 24, 2021

fhansen said:
“Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” 1 John 3:7-8

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

God ultimately wants but does not demand perfection now-only that we're on that path, the "journey to perfection" as it's been called. Do you think we can persistently remain serious sinners and still enter heaven, as if our continuous humility in seeing ourselves as worthless sinful wretches impresses Him after all His Son did, and after the power of the Spirit that He now gives us as a result to overcome sin, to become the something He's created us to be, that He wants us to be?
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God is not to be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7

Yes, a novel, somewhat skewed gospel, unfortunately common and embraced by many in these latter times. Overcoming sin is a struggle, and one we won't always succeed at as we'll backslide at times. But overcome it with the help of grace we must, striving ahead more than slipping backwards in the overall scheme of things. And when we do slip, a change of heart with repentance will obtain the forgiveness that is always at hand. The law convicts us of sin, so that we may turn to Him who can overcome sin in us, so that we will not earn its wages.

Maybe it's just the terminology you use, so maybe I misunderstand you and you missunderstand me, however, I try to use the absolute best word(in our modern language) to talk about things of God.

With that said, sin has been overcome because of what Christ did. "We" do not overcome it, we resist it. And yes, that resistance will forever be there until the day we leave this body of flesh.

It has been said, if you are not struggling(at war) with something then it means you are not opposed to it.

That is the problem these days. The thought is that "I" overcome sin and gradually I will not have to resist it anymore. This is the state that Jesus finds fault with the Laodicean church.

No one who has His Spirit will remain in imperfect behavior(sin). Why? Because those who have the Spirit will be following Him, and He will never lead us into imperfection. But we have no clue what perfection is until He leads us in it.

The point of all of this, our humanity, is to drive home the message that we are not perfect and He is perfect. What happens is the lie of Satan continues on to this day that somehow we can be perfect as He is - apart from Him.

And the very food that feeds this rebellion against God is the words that were spoken so long ago in that Garden;

[Gen 3:4-5 ESV] But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

This is a lie. It was back then, and it is still today. It's trickery and so many people still fall for it. Satan, from the beginning, has taken God's words and twisted them. He still does that today as is manifested in how people interpret what they want to see/hear from the Bible.

Mankind continues on with this corrupt mindset that somehow we can be like God, knowing good and evil as He does. God does not want that for us. He did not want it for them, and He did not change His mind after.

God gave us this choice, still gives us this choice, so that in the end He will have a people who fully are devoted to Him - dependant on Him. That is our perfection.

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

fhansen said:
I think the main difference is in whether or not man must uphold the law through Christ, or if Christ, alone, upholds the law and it doesn't matter one way or the other what we do, as long as we believe in Him and what He's done.

For myself, God upholds the law through and because of Christ as He upholds it in me, or else it really isn't being upheld at all. IOW, He expects and wants more for and from us than to be strictly forgiven sinners only. And He enables us now to do just that.

So I can understand what you're saying,

When you talk about God upholding the law through Christ in you,

the laws you are talking about are things as they are interpreted and understood by the Catholic Church?

That would include things like every Sunday being a holy day of obligation, as opposed to every Saturday.

(I'm not saying those interpretations and understanding are right or wrong, and as you alluded to, this really wouldn't be the right thread to talk about that.)

Nathan@work · Mar 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
No, God does not change His mind and no, I have said no such thing. What is it in the scriptures shared with you earlier that you do not understand in relation to what I have shared with you from the scriptures showing that God's law gives us the knowledge of what good and evil; sin and righteousness is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172?

[Rom 3:20 ESV] 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

[Rom 7:7 ESV] 7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

[1Jo 3:4 ESV] 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

[Psa 119:172 ESV] 172 My tongue will sing of your word, for all your commandments are right.

Now, show me where it says that God wants us to have the knowledge of good and evil? It is not there. God did not want them to eat of that tree in the first place, and He put them out of the Garden which meant they could not eat of it anymore.

Yet Satan still tries to convince people that we can be like Him, knowing good from evil, and people still fall for his lie.

The Commands of God show us our evil. They do not show us how to discern good from evil as He can. That is why we must be led by His Spirit.

In Christ it is not our concern to know good from evil, it is only to know Him and what He wants us to do. Faith tells us that His way will always be a good way.

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

imge said:
After re-reading your question, I am not sure I understand completely what you’re asking, but I am going to answer what I think you mean and you can correct me if I misunderstood.

I don’t understand what it means “that God has no part in” but I do have a job that is not dedicated to religious services (pastor, church assistant etc.) but my job, which pays my bills is an honest way to make a living, I am not required to work on Sabbath and I give 10% minimum back to God through tithe on all my earnings. Jesus was a carpenter, so as long as you are making an honest living and it doesn’t interfere with working on God’s Sabbath and you’re giving back to God, I think it’s okay to pick out a career choice that aligns with your talents. I don’t think it’s a good idea to work a job that will cause a lot of temptation, like for example working in Hollywood or at a bar etc. The Holy Spirit has corrected me in my career choice in the past and its always a great idea to listen. I seek God daily and He comes first above everything else and you need a healthy balance.

I originally thought you asked a different question. Let me know if this answers the question you had in mind. God bless.

Thank you for the nice response. No, it doesn't actually answer the question I was asking about. But no worries, I think we can bring it around to what I was asking about

I'm glad you brought up tithing. When you give 10%, do you do that because 10% belongs to God, and 90% belongs to you?

I'm not currently working for an income, but I do have some money in an IRA. Oops

I mean God has some money in an IRA that from a human perspective has my name on it.

Since I am "owned" by God, I try to remember that everything that I "own" is actually God's, to be saved or spent as he wills.

So, when you earn money, does 10% belong to God and 90% to you? Or 100% to God? Something else?

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Maybe it's just the terminology you use, so maybe I misunderstand you and you missunderstand me, however, I try to use the absolute best word(in our modern language) to talk about things of God.

With that said, sin has been overcome because of what Christ did. "We" do not overcome it, we resist it. And yes, that resistance will forever be there until the day we leave this body of flesh.

It has been said, if you are not struggling(at war) with something then it means you are not opposed to it.

That is the problem these days. The thought is that "I" overcome sin and gradually I will not have to resist it anymore. This is the state that Jesus finds fault with the Laodicean church.

No one who has His Spirit will remain in imperfect behavior(sin). Why? Because those who have the Spirit will be following Him, and He will never lead us into imperfection. But we have no clue what perfection is until He leads us in it.

The point of all of this, our humanity, is to drive home the message that we are not perfect and He is perfect. What happens is the lie of Satan continues on to this day that somehow we can be perfect as He is - apart from Him.

And the very food that feeds this rebellion against God is the words that were spoken so long ago in that Garden;

[Gen 3:4-5 ESV] But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

This is a lie. It was back then, and it is still today. It's trickery and so many people still fall for it. Satan, from the beginning, has taken God's words and twisted them. He still does that today as is manifested in how people interpret what they want to see/hear from the Bible.

Mankind continues on with this corrupt mindset that somehow we can be like God, knowing good and evil as He does. God does not want that for us. He did not want it for them, and He did not change His mind after.

God gave us this choice, still gives us this choice, so that in the end He will have a people who fully are devoted to Him - dependant on Him. That is our perfection.

Okay, gotta ask this so I can follow what you're saying,

Doesn't God say later that the humans have become like us, knowing good and evil?

Nathan@work · Mar 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Okay, gotta ask this so I can follow what you're saying,

Doesn't God say later that the humans have become like us, knowing good and evil?

Yes. I'll share the shortened version.

God states that we were created in His image. So does that mean we look exactly like Him?

In all seriousness, they(Adam/Eve) had become like God, in that before they had not known evil, but now they did.

However, that does not mean they continued to know good and evil like God does. We must remember that they died(spiritually speaking) when they ate. God knows good and evil, yet He does not die.

One of the biggest obstacles we have to overcome, as simple as it may seem, is that the tree/fruit in the Garden is not like something from a movie. It was not a super secrete thing that gave them special powers etc.

Fruit/food in the Bible is always indicative of something we 'consume'. Something that gives us something. For them, what they received from it, was death - as was told them by God.

So, to re-cap, yes they did become like God - but they died because of it; therefore, they did not stay like God.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Thank you for the nice response. No, it doesn't actually answer the question I was asking about. But no worries, I think we can bring it around to what I was asking about

I'm glad you brought up tithing. When you give 10%, do you do that because 10% belongs to God, and 90% belongs to you?

I'm not currently working for an income, but I do have some money in an IRA. Oops I mean God has some money in an IRA that from a human perspective has my name on it.

Since I am "owned" by God, I try to remember that everything that I "own" is actually God's, to be saved or spent as he wills.

So, when you earn money, does 10% belong to God and 90% to you? Or 100% to God? Something else?

Sorry, what was your original question?

Regarding tithes you only need to give 10% Numbers 18:26, Proverbs 3:9-10, Genesis 14:19,20, and God promises to bless your other money. Malachi 3:10-11 I do not tithe for the blessings (like many prosperity churches teach) but I never seem to have to worry about not having enough money to pay my bills when I tithe.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Leaf473 · Mar 24, 2021

imge said:
Sorry, what was your original question?

Regarding tithes you only need to give 10% Numbers 18:26, Proverbs 3:9-10, Genesis 14:19,20, and God promises to bless your other money. Malachi 3:10-11 I do not tithe for the blessings (like many prosperity churches teach) but I never seem to have to worry about not having enough money to pay my bills when I tithe.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Here's the part of a previous post that contains the original question

Leaf473 said:
I'm sure we agree that we are bought with a price, that we don't belong to ourselves.

Is there work that you do that you do just for yourself, and that God has no part in?

When it comes to tithing, once you give God the 10%, does the 90% belong to you? (Gross income or net, not really important for the question. Just the general idea

)

Similarly, talking about the Sabbath, I think Isaiah says to turn our foot from doing our own pleasure. So if we honor God's Sabbath, will he then bless our activities the other 6 days when we turn our foot to our own pleasure?

LoveGodsWord · Mar 24, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Now, show me where it says that God wants us to have the knowledge of good and evil?

Sure no problem here you go, what do you think these scriptures are saying *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172? Do you know what good and evil is or sin and righteousness?

What happened after mankind sinned and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Hope this is helpful

Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

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