[MOVED] I Don't Believe that God is Good Anymore

Taodeching said:

Christ doesn't advocate pagan type doctrines such as you do.

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I can't believe a person that believes in hell would say such a silly thing. Seriously?

Hel (being) - Wikipedia

aiki said:

Christ sets the bar high, doesn't he? How about you? Have you ignored a beggar as you walked past him?

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So what's the solution? Stay out of the third world and hole up uptown? In trouble if you ever go to Africa...

Reminds me of that missionary idea of taking the gospel to the heathen in order to save them from damnation. Glad tidings of great joy for all men - most of you are hopelessly doomed!

Come on man, it just don't add up unless God saves every last skerrick of creation.

Taodeching said:

Christ doesn't advocate pagan type doctrines such as you do.

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I'm afraid my friend that you are putting dark for light. 'God saves the whole world from sin and death', is the proposition I'm contending for. He hath promised it, and shall delivereth thereon. That's what the blood on the cross is about, the guarantee of the total victory of Christ. Pagan schmagan.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Or do you say the strong man will repulse Jesus when he invades his lair to recover his goods?

Taodeching said:

You really need to learn what Purgatory is, it does not save anyone and is like the toll houses in Orthodox thought. Paul even talks about something like Purgatory and you must be saved to be in Purgatory,

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So which scriptures do the Catholics rely on in support of Purgatory doctrine?

Shrewd Manager said:

So what's the solution? Stay out of the third world and hole up uptown? In trouble if you ever go to Africa...

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The solution to what, exactly? An overly-literal application of Christ's words that is impossible to sustain? I have never proposed a solution to such a problem; and, I have never held that such a problem exists, either.

Shrewd Manager said:

Reminds me of that missionary idea of taking the gospel to the heathen in order to save them from damnation. Glad tidings of great joy for all men - most of you are hopelessly doomed

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I'm not a Calvinist. All who will may come. The Gospel is Good News for all those who receive the gift of salvation it offers. For those who reject that Gift, the wrath of God abides on them. All choices have consequences. If most are hopelessly doomed, it is by their own choosing.

Shrewd Manager said:

I'm afraid my friend that you are putting dark for light. 'God saves the whole world from sin and death', is the proposition I'm contending for. He hath promised it, and shall delivereth thereon. That's what the blood on the cross is about, the guarantee of the total victory of Christ. Pagan schmagan.

Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Or do you say the strong man will repulse Jesus when he invades his lair to recover his goods?

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I am saying that universal salvation is a thing of damnation

Shrewd Manager said:

So which scriptures do the Catholics rely on in support of Purgatory doctrine?

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You'll have to ask them

aiki said:

The solution to what, exactly? An overly-literal application of Christ's words that is impossible to sustain? I have never proposed a solution to such a problem; and, I have never held that such a problem exists, either.

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So how many times can you walk past a beggar and still avoid eternal punishment? Two, three, four - but only if you feel a gut-wrenching deep in your soul...? Or does Matt 25:48 not really threaten anyone with eternal damnation?

aiki said:

I'm not a Calvinist. All who will may come. The Gospel is Good News for all those who receive the gift of salvation it offers. For those who reject that Gift, the wrath of God abides on them. All choices have consequences. If most are hopelessly doomed, it is by their own choosing.

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Come on man, you can't have it both ways. Reject the 'love of God' go to hell forever, but as a 'believer' if I eschew charitable works on occasion, it's no problem good and faithful servant, all is forgiven, come right on in! And keep turning that cold shoulder to those who've made their bed in hell.

Now I suggest that attitude may well earn a 'Depart from me', cometh the moment.

Taodeching said:

You'll have to ask them

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Funny. Tell me I don't know anything about Purgatory, then when I ask pass me off. What do you do for an encore, round up the homeless and send them to Jersey?

Taodeching said:

I am saying that universal salvation is a thing of damnation

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And unless you can can somehow justify that, you'll get corrected:

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isa 5:20)

Calling salvation damnation would prima facie fall squarely within the above dictum.

Shrewd Manager said:

So which scriptures do the Catholics rely on in support of Purgatory doctrine?

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2 Maccabees 12:41–46
41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

plus:
2 Timothy 1:18
Matthew 12:32
Luke 16:19-26
Luke 23:43
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Hebrews 12:29

Shrewd Manager said:

Funny. Tell me I don't know anything about Purgatory, then when I ask pass me off. What do you do for an encore, round up the homeless and send them to Jersey?

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Nope. You can do work yourself, your capable.

Shrewd Manager said:

And unless you can can somehow justify that, you'll get corrected:

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isa 5:20)

Calling salvation damnation would prima facie fall squarely within the above dictum.

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The absolute heresy of universal salvation is from the pits of hell. You are NWMTOE

Taodeching said:

Nope. You can do work yourself, your capable.

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Ok seeing as you've got so much to contribute. Checked it and yes confirms my position above. Thanks.

Taodeching said:

NWMTOE

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Not NWMTOE, NWMTOE how shall we ever recover, dang that NWMTOE got me where I live.

Just one question...ah forget it.

atpollard said:

2 Maccabees 12:41–46
41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

plus:
2 Timothy 1:18
Matthew 12:32
Luke 16:19-26
Luke 23:43
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Hebrews 12:29

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Thanks, those verses support a purification in general terms, but not necessarily only of 'those who fall asleep in godliness' (but thanks for the deuterocanonical apocryphal ref).

Why not go straight for the Lake of Fire? What's wrong with the taste of healing sulfur in the morning? Now the LoF is great because it also cleanses the kings of the earth, the nations and the reprobates, who emerge from it in Rev 21:24-26 repentant to worship God (through the ever-open Pearly Gates), and thence to receive the healing leaves of the tree of life in Rev 22:2.

The healing at the Pool of Bethesda in Jn 5:1-18 is a type of the Lake of Fire. There are many others also throughout the Bible. So to the infernalists I say take up thy Matt 25:46 and walk.

Shrewd Manager said:

So how many times can you walk past a beggar and still avoid eternal punishment?

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??? No one gets into heaven, no one becomes a member of God's family, on the basis of their good deeds (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). It stands to reason, then, that no one loses their membership in God's family or their place in His kingdom on the basis of their deeds, either. Christ alone is the ground for our acceptance by God. So, the number of times I ignore a beggar has no bearing upon my saved status.

In any case, Christ's remarks in Matthew 25:41-46 were in reference to Christian brethren in need, not the average beggar on the street. Every disciple of Christ bears his Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13) within, and as such will be the natural object of the genuine believer's love, as Christ himself is. To love Christ (the First and Great Commandment - Matthew 22:36-38) is to love those in whom his Spirit dwells. This is, I believe, what Christ was explaining in Matthew 25.

The apostle John wrote something very similar:

1 John 3:16-17
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

These verses aren't indicating that one must love in order to be saved, but that the natural consequence of loving the Saviour, of being saved, will be to love the brethren. It is so inevitable that one who loves Christ, who is saved, will love the brethren, that Christ makes them virtually synonymous in Matthew 25:41-46.

Shrewd Manager said:

Come on man, you can't have it both ways. Reject the 'love of God' go to hell forever, but as a 'believer' if I eschew charitable works on occasion, it's no problem good and faithful servant, all is forgiven, come right on in! And keep turning that cold shoulder to those who've made their bed in hell.

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Those in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells are moved by the Spirit to act in a Christ-like way. It is inevitable, if the believer is spiritually healthy, reasonably mature, and well-discipled, that he will bear the fruit of righteousness in his life. Such a believer will not turn a cold shoulder to the needy - especially of the household of faith. Very naturally, as an extension of his love for God, for Christ, the genuine believer will seek to help the needy.

The sort of "cold shoulder believer" you describe above is either badly in need of discipling, or is not actually a born-again child of God. More often than not, the latter is the case, I think. In any event, it is not one's good deeds that save them, that is the deciding factor in their salvation, but in whom they have put their trust.

aiki said:

??? No one gets into heaven, no one becomes a member of God's family, on the basis of their good deeds (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). It stands to reason, then, that no one loses their membership in God's family or their place in His kingdom on the basis of their deeds, either. Christ alone is the ground for our acceptance by God. So, the number of times I ignore a beggar has no bearing upon my saved status.

In any case, Christ's remarks in Matthew 25:41-46 were in reference to Christian brethren in need, not the average beggar on the street. Every disciple of Christ bears his Spirit, the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9; Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13) within, and as such will be the natural object of the genuine believer's love, as Christ himself is. To love Christ (the First and Great Commandment - Matthew 22:36-38) is to love those in whom his Spirit dwells. This is, I believe, what Christ was explaining in Matthew 25.

The apostle John wrote something very similar:

1 John 3:16-17
16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

These verses aren't indicating that one must love in order to be saved, but that the natural consequence of loving the Saviour, of being saved, will be to love the brethren. It is so inevitable that one who loves Christ, who is saved, will love the brethren, that Christ makes them virtually synonymous in Matthew 25:41-46.

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So if one is saved but one's love of the brethren has grown cold (for example), is eternal punishment on the cards?

I don't agree that we are told to distinguish between brethren and heathen for these purposes. Love thy neighbour, that filthy jew. Now the love might be expressed differently. Anyway...

aiki said:

Those in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells are moved by the Spirit to act in a Christ-like way. It is inevitable, if the believer is spiritually healthy, reasonably mature, and well-discipled, that he will bear the fruit of righteousness in his life. Such a believer will not turn a cold shoulder to the needy - especially of the household of faith. Very naturally, as an extension of his love for God, for Christ, the genuine believer will seek to help the needy.

The sort of "cold shoulder believer" you describe above is either badly in need of discipling, or is not actually a born-again child of God. More often than not, the latter is the case, I think. In any event, it is not one's good deeds that save them, that is the deciding factor in their salvation, but in whom they have put their trust.

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aiki said:

For those who reject that Gift, the wrath of God abides on them. All choices have consequences. If most are hopelessly doomed, it is by their own choosing.

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But isn't this the 'cold shoulder', if indeed the consequences are so hideous?

So what's your scriptural proof of the eternal bbq-bound unbeliever? All the Gospel refs to Gehenna are to believers/ brethren, and you're willing to read the worst of them down.

Shrewd Manager said:

Thanks, those verses support a purification in general terms, but not necessarily only of 'those who fall asleep in godliness' (but thanks for the deuterocanonical apocryphal ref).

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You are welcome.
It is the verses that THEY (Catholics) use to support Purgatory.
I am a Particular Baptist that does not believe in Purgatory, but just happened to know the answer to your question.

Shrewd Manager said:

So if one is saved but one's love of the brethren has grown cold (for example), is eternal punishment on the cards?

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No. As I pointed out, the Bible is really clear that one's good deeds (or bad ones) have nothing to do with how one is saved (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9, etc.) or remains saved. There is salvation only in Christ; we are accepted by God only because we are in him.

Shrewd Manager said:

I don't agree that we are told to distinguish between brethren and heathen for these purposes.

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In Matthew 25:41-46 we know that Christ had believing brethren in mind because of verse 40:

Matthew 25:40
40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

Are we to attend only to the needs of fellow believers? No, of course not. But in the comments Jesus was making in Matthew 25:41-46 this is who is in view as the object of charitable deeds. And in a number of places in the NT, believers are commanded to give one another priority over all others in their practical expressions of love. (See 1 John)

Shrewd Manager said:

But isn't this the 'cold shoulder', if indeed the consequences are so hideous?

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I don't follow you here. If someone smokes cigarettes all their adult life and they end up dying of lung cancer, are we giving them the "cold shoulder" in acknowledging that smoking cigs produces cancer? In the same way, if someone forsakes God, living in willful rebellion toward Him for decades, "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness" as the apostle Paul described in Romans 1, and they die unrepentant in their sin and end up in hell, how is it the "cold shoulder" treatment to recognize that their choice to reject God has led to their eternal separation from Him?

Shrewd Manager said:

So what's your scriptural proof of the eternal bbq-bound unbeliever? All the Gospel refs to Gehenna are to believers/ brethren, and you're willing to read the worst of them down.

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When did Jesus speak of Gehenna in his various remarks on it in the Gospels? Before or after his atonement for sin on the cross? If before, how can you say he was speaking to believers/brethren? Until Acts 2, after his crucifixion and resurrection, there were no born-again Christian brethren.