Are there any kinds of births in heaven?

returntosender · Mar 23, 2021

Animals give us love and joy. I will never believe they will go to hell. They need to be rewarded for their love.

ewq1938 · Mar 23, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
I have always thought our animals have no soul, and when they are gone, they are gone. My take on that now is, its still possible we could have our animals back, but I'm not counting on it.

Animals have spirits and souls. I can post those scriptures if needed. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't mean they have an afterlife.

My main point was, animals on the new earth, newly created animals, I have every reason to believe they will flourish, or at the very least, I have no reason at all to believe they will not.

I just wish there was scripture saying this.

On our pets, and though we would like to at least remember them forever, God has a different idea on that, as he will cause us to forget all of that, so at least the sorrow won't be there for them, the next best thing to having them back.

I'd like to see mine too, but most were cats and I only have one lap so 7 cats or so might not be the easiest to accommodate.

Kenny'sID · Mar 24, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Animals have spirits and souls. I can post those scriptures if needed. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't mean they have an afterlife.

I just wish there was scripture saying this.

I'd like to see mine too, but most were cats and I only have one lap so 7 cats or so might not be the easiest to accommodate.

Almost all of mine are cats as well, and I have to have gone through 30 to 40...definitely a lap full.

I would like to see the scripture that shows animals having a soul. I thought I read where they did not, but I have recalled wrongly in the past, so....

Warning, once I find they have a soul, I may never stop arguing this.

ewq1938 · Mar 24, 2021

Kenny'sID said:
Almost all of mine are cats as well, and I have to have gone through 30 to 40...definitely a lap full.

I would like to see the scripture that shows animals having a soul. I thought I read where they did not, but I have recalled wrongly in the past, so....

Warning, once I find they have a soul, I may never stop arguing this.

Here you go:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature [soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [soul] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

living= 02416 chay
soul= 05315 nephesh

Both man and animals are a "living soul" according to God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man has the "breath of life".

Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Animals also have the breath of life.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Man and animals have different flesh, but both are a living soul and have the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ru^ach]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

What befalls the flesh of animals will also befall the flesh of man. Animals and man have the same breath! Breath here is ru^ach meaning spirit!

(YLT) For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.

Animals and man have one spirit (one spirit to all) meaning the same spirit!

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}
from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f

AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,
vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

The flesh of animals and man both go to the same place!

So, according to God both man and animals are a living soul and have the the breath of life and have a spirit.

Kenny'sID · Mar 24, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Here you go:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature [soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [soul] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

living= 02416 chay
soul= 05315 nephesh

Both man and animals are a "living soul" according to God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man has the "breath of life".

Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Animals also have the breath of life.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Man and animals have different flesh, but both are a living soul and have the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ru^ach]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

What befalls the flesh of animals will also befall the flesh of man. Animals and man have the same breath! Breath here is ru^ach meaning spirit!

(YLT) For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.

Animals and man have one spirit (one spirit to all) meaning the same spirit!

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}
from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f

AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,
vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

The flesh of animals and man both go to the same place!

So, according to God both man and animals are a living soul and have the the breath of life and have a spirit.

Thanks, I'll need to revisit this study.

HARK! · Apr 8, 2021

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returntosender · Apr 9, 2021

Doesn't this defeat your argument?

returntosender · Apr 9, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Here you go:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature [soul] that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature [soul] after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

living= 02416 chay
creature = 05315 nephesh

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

living= 02416 chay
soul= 05315 nephesh

Both man and animals are a "living soul" according to God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man has the "breath of life".

Genesis 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Animals also have the breath of life.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Man and animals have different flesh, but both are a living soul and have the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ru^ach]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

What befalls the flesh of animals will also befall the flesh of man. Animals and man have the same breath! Breath here is ru^ach meaning spirit!

(YLT) For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.

Animals and man have one spirit (one spirit to all) meaning the same spirit!

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}
from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f

AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4,
vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378

1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

The flesh of animals and man both go to the same place!

So, according to God both man and animals are a living soul and have the the breath of life and have a spirit.

Doesn't this defeat your argument?

ewq1938 · Apr 9, 2021

returntosender said:
Doesn't this defeat your argument?

No. Just because a living creature has a spirit and soul does not equal that creature can obtain eternal life. Not once does the bible say Jesus died to save animals and allow them a resurrection nor that animals will be given a glorified body like Christ's.

There are things in the next world (the age of eternity) that won't exist. Marriage, childbirth, the sea...many people really enjoy those things but they won't exist. The idea that animals won't exist isn't that strange considering those other things that won't.

The Liturgist · Apr 9, 2021

ewq1938 said:
Animals have spirits and souls. I can post those scriptures if needed. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't mean they have an afterlife.

I just wish there was scripture saying this.

I'd like to see mine too, but most were cats and I only have one lap so 7 cats or so might not be the easiest to accommodate.

That said, if we assume the risen body of our Lord, which seems best described by the word Jerome translated epiousios into in Matthew 6:11, which is to say, supersubstantial, is prototypical of our risen state in the Eschaton, and there is some reason to think this might be the case, we can look forward to our supersubstantial laps being able to accommodate an arbitrary number of eschatological kitties.

There was an early church father who is highly regarded in Eastern Orthodox monasticism who was of the opinion that all cats are saved. And certainly, that might well explain the massive numbers of Byzantine Rite felines on Mount Athos and in other Orthodox monasteries.

ewq1938 · Apr 9, 2021

The Liturgist said:
That said, if we assume the risen body of our Lord, which seems best described by the word Jerome translated epiousios into in Matthew 6:11, which is to say, supersubstantial, is prototypical of our risen state in the Eschaton, and there is some reason to think this might be the case, we can look forward to our supersubstantial laps being able to accommodate an arbitrary number of eschatological kitties.

There was an early church father who is highly regarded in Eastern Orthodox monasticism who was of the opinion that all cats are saved. And certainly, that might well explain the massive numbers of Byzantine Rite felines on Mount Athos and in other Orthodox monasteries.

I don't see anything here from scripture that shows animals have an afterlife, resurrection, or that the age will have newly created mortal or immortal animals.

The Liturgist · Apr 9, 2021

ewq1938 said:
I don't see anything here from scripture that shows animals have an afterlife, resurrection, or that the age will have newly created mortal or immortal animals.

Forgive me, my post, while not a joke, was intentionally whimsical and light of heart.

I do personally believe however, on the basis that God is love, and that God is infinitely merciful, that God will spare even irrational animals, and a love for animals and nature is proper, as it shows a love for the goodness of God’s resplendent creation. And I also do believe that in our risen state, the ability of the elect to show a genuine love, appreciation and thanksgiving for God’s creation will be unfettered. These are private beliefs, theologoumemna to use a term from Greek theology which I’ve fallen in love with, as opposed to any kind of doctrine,

The Liturgist · Apr 9, 2021

ewq1938 said:
No. Just because a living creature has a spirit and soul does not equal that creature can obtain eternal life. Not once does the bible say Jesus died to save animals and allow them a resurrection nor that animals will be given a glorified body like Christ's.

There are things in the next world (the age of eternity) that won't exist. Marriage, childbirth, the sea...many people really enjoy those things but they won't exist. The idea that animals won't exist isn't that strange considering those other things that won't.

I don’t see that our Lord would need to die to save animals considering they are not guilty of original sin.

ewq1938 · Apr 9, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I don’t see that our Lord would need to die to save animals considering they are not guilty of original sin.

Wasn't the whole world cursed when Adam fell?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God so if there would be animals, they would have to be immortal.

bbbbbbb · Apr 10, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I don’t see that our Lord would need to die to save animals considering they are not guilty of original sin.

I am not convinced that animals are capable of sin, certainly not sin as we humans understand it to be. Animals are as innocent as Adam and Eve were prior to the Fall.

Are there any kinds of births in heaven?

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