The High-minded Will Be Cut Off

We are warned that "God opposes the proud"....

Not "God opposes the sinner".

IF the sinner realizes their filth and absolute dependence and need for Jesus Christ.... that sinner is being humble and will recieve grace and mercy.

It is the proud Pharisee that beats his chest whioe talking to his creator. While the tax collector knows he is not worthy to look in the direction he attributed to his God.

Both men had sined.

Both men sought to speak to God.

One was proud, the other hunble.

One returned home justified.

Its true today as it was then.

If we believe we can do anything ourselves....independent of the tree, then how can we claim to be a branch as well?

A branch is 100% dependent on the tree for all things.

If it is independent, then it is not part of a tree.

Clare73 said:

How does that work?

"Cutting off" is because of rejection of NT faith.
So no one now is coming to NT faith, all are rejecting it?
I don't think that's true today in some foreign countries.

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And the arrogance Paul refers to is an attitude of "we're better than you, that's why we have replaced you."
And Paul's reply is: "it's not about you being better, it's about them not believing. And (even if you are better) if you don't stand in the faith, you also will be cut off for the same unbelief." Also I'm unaware of that NT Gentile attitude regarding Israel being a Christian attitude anywhere today.

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In fact, what I see is just the opposite.
Note that all Paul's warnings to those Gentiles did not mute his strong stand against Israelites who would try to Judaize Christianity.
So I see both from Paul, warning against boasting, as well as warning against Judaizing.
Neither one mitigates the other. . .both are true. . .they must exist side by side.

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Minister Monardo said:

Just what Paul has stated in verse 22, in the context of becoming arrogant. The topic,
as established by the text, is not unbelief, but arrogance.
Romans 11:
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but fear—
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

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22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell;
but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too
will be cut off.

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God's kindness to them is their gospel faith, which to discontinue would be apostasy, which is why they would be cut off, not because of arrogance.

An arrogant Christian is an oxymoron.

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And yet Paul was addressing Gentile Christians about arrogance?

You can try to convince them that their arrogance is a form of unbelief, but
they will likely reject your position, because of arrogance.

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Precisely. . .it is pure arrogance to assume one can judge a professing Christian's heart regarding unbelief.

And Paul also warns in Romans about judgmental arrogance: "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master, he stands or falls. And he will stand, for our Lord is able to make him stand."

There is no Biblical warrant in Ro 11:20-22 for arrogance being unbelief in the gospel.

Minister Monardo said:

Exactly. As a warning.

The warning in Romans 11 clear.
"Be not high minded, but fear"

Now you want to talk about being judgmental? How much further off topic do you intend to go
rather than accept Paul's specific warning to Gentiles concerning Israel. He is not talking about
passing judgment, he is not talking about unbelief.

Romans 11:
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted
in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

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Does boasting pertain to unbelief, passing judgment, or....becoming arrogant towards Israel?

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You maintain that the arrogance of boasting is a form of unbelief, with which I disagree.

That is the concern of chapter 11 in Romans. That is the topic of the thread. If you want to discuss unbelief, there is a new thread just for that purpose. As to passing judgment, you are on your on now.

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A judgmental attitude is about arrogance, which does not derail your thread, it presents a fuller view of arrogance, which is the topic.

If Paul warns of arrogance as a form of unbelief,
he also warns of contra-Biblical judgmentalism as a form of arrogance.

Arrogance is a lack of abiding in God

I don't see anyone in the world cut off until the last 1260 days of testimony is given in Rev 11. Those who take joy in the death of the two witnesses will be ensnared by the lie of the beast. So as to be condemned for they refuse to repent and believe God and love to do evil. For this reason the powerful delusion is allowed into the world. They are cut off because of their unbelief. Until that time Jesus comes to save and the Spirit of prophesy bears witness of Jesus. Those who listen and learn from the Father will go to Jesus.

Minister Monardo said:

Romans 11:
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but fear—
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell;
but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too
will be cut off.
H3772 - kāraṯ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

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One of dozens of passages that refute the lie of UES aka OSAS.

Randy777 said:

I don't see anyone in the world cut off until the last 1260 days of testimony is given in Rev 11. Those who take joy in the death of the two witnesses will be ensnared by the lie of the beast. So as to be condemned for they refuse to repent and believe God and love to do evil. For this reason the powerful delusion is allowed into the world. They are cut off because of their unbelief. Until that time Jesus comes to save and the Spirit of prophesy bears witness of Jesus. Those who listen and learn from the Father will go to Jesus.

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Paul is talking to those who’ve already been grafted on by faith, that they can still be cut off again.

Minister Monardo said:

Romans 11:
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but fear—
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell;
but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too
will be cut off.
H3772 - kāraṯ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

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Arrogance is indeed an abomination before the Lord, scripture tell us.

I think you might have some trouble in trying to use the different phrase "high minded" though, since we know bible verses laud raising our minds to higher things!

Colossians 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think on these things.

So, I think the phrasing 'high minded' is too much having multiple possible meanings, and unnecessarily confusing.

We are indeed to set our minds on higher things -- the things of God, and 'walk in the spirit, not in the flesh' (Romans 8).

Minister Monardo said:

I understand, except then the question becomes in that context, why would anyone be cut off?
The thread title is taken from the KJV, on behalf of that translations' proponents.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear:
The topic, as established by post #1, uses a modern translation:
Romans 11:
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but fear—
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell;
but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too
will be cut off.

While arrogance is unacceptable by the scriptures, Paul's warning is that arrogance toward
natural Israel is particularly unacceptable, as they have borne the burden of the Law, and
all it's curses. They were cutoff because of unbelief for the sake of the Gentiles. Paul says
that Gentiles can face the same severity for failure to abide in "His Kindness".

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Romans 11 especially, is a great chapter to understand Israel and the Body of Christ

In the Body of Christ which all of us are saved now, Jews and gentile does not matter (Galatians 3:8).

What is happening now is that the nation Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11), so Israel has no special privilege in the eyes of God. We are saved thru the fall of Israel.

However, it does not follow that it will always be like that. That is why Paul urged unbelieving gentiles not to take their time to get into the Body of Christ in this age of grace (Romans 11)

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

When the Body of Christ is removed from this Earth, before God restore the nation of Israel back to "favored" status, to graft the Jews into "their own olive tree", that is when gentiles would be cut off.

During the Tribulation, Israel will once again be God's favored nation, and any unbelieving gentiles, if they want to be saved then, must once again bless Israel in order to be saved (John 4:22).

That is why Jesus said what he said in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 24:31-46

Minister Monardo said:

Romans 11:
19 You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.
20 True enough. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith.
Do not be arrogant, but fear—
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
22 Notice then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell;
but God’s kindness toward you, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too
will be cut off.
H3772 - kāraṯ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

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This idea is what got me thinking that American Freedom is actually Freedom from God because America is so proud. Then I thought deeper and realized that this country has taken everything God hates and made it their lifestyle. Greed, lust, inappropriate contentography, homosexuality, idolatry, violence, vanity, adultery, pride, gluttony, selfishness, etc. Did God ever bless America? Look at the Pagan symbols on our money. Why would He?

Chapter 11 is about spiritual Israel, not literal Israel in the way man has viewed Israel in the OT and in the NT, be they Hebrew or Samarian/ Jew or Gentile. The root of the vine is Christ (he's the root of Jesse) into which both Jew and Gentile are engrafted into when they become believers. We are one body in Christ.

They shouldn't strife with each other in the same way a Hebrew believer in the OT shouldn't have strived or thought themselves better than the Samaritan. Both were harlots and went a whoring in the sight of the Lord in the OT. Israel went a whoring in the OT more so than the Samaritan. In the NT era the Gentile went a whoring against the Lord thinking they were better than the Jew.

The same is happening today, Gentiles think their superior, Jews think their God's chosen people. The simple truth is - Christ's finished work on the cross offers both Jew and Gentile full Salvation only through him as spiritual Israel (one body of believers) in Christ.

The only person who can decide who literal Israel is is Christ, when he comes to judge us all and trample all his foes under foot. Rev 20 is Christ's vengange, Rev 21+22 are his 'Israel'.

There's no doubt about it, problems arise today and sin must be dealt with. Problems arose in the OT and the 1 century AD where man was judging man according to their 'view' of religion. If in doubt about your walk with the Lord Christ Jesus, don't look to man for advice, because man will always fail you, look to Christ and he'll guide your paths and correct you. He's the author and finisher of your faith, no man and no man-made religion can be author or finisher of your faith, only Christ (Prophet, Priest and King) All offices now completed and when the last Jew and Gentile is saved, Christ will return with vengenge.

Proverbs 3:5-7
Proverbs 12:2
Romans 14:12
2 Corinthians 5:10
Matthew 12:36-37

chad kincham said:

Paul is talking to those who’ve already been grafted on by faith, that they can still be cut off again.

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You think John was premature?
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

But how many actually state this?
You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.

Its quite clear that God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous even among the Israelites. But the cutting off Paul speaks of seems much broader.

When asked why Jesus spoke to the people in parables?

He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;

though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;

you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

15For this people’s heart has become calloused;

they hardly hear with their ears,

and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

hear with their ears,

understand with their hearts

and turn, and I would heal them.’

Guojing said:

Romans 11 especially, is a great chapter to understand Israel and the Body of Christ

In the Body of Christ which all of us are saved now, Jews and gentile does not matter (Galatians 3:8).

What is happening now is that the nation Israel has fallen (Romans 11:11), so Israel has no special privilege in the eyes of God. We are saved thru the fall of Israel.

However, it does not follow that it will always be like that. That is why Paul urged unbelieving gentiles not to take their time to get into the Body of Christ in this age of grace (Romans 11)

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

When the Body of Christ is removed from this Earth, before God restore the nation of Israel back to "favored" status, to graft the Jews into "their own olive tree", that is when gentiles would be cut off.

During the Tribulation, Israel will once again be God's favored nation, and any unbelieving gentiles, if they want to be saved then, must once again bless Israel in order to be saved (John 4:22).

That is why Jesus said what he said in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 24:31-46

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Absolutely incorrect. Being cut off or not is conditional on them CONTINUING IN GODs GOODNESS - verse 22.

Thus everyone who continues in God’s goodness will never be cut off the vine and from the new covenant Christ gave us.

chad kincham said:

Absolutely incorrect. Being cut off or not is conditional on them CONTINUING IN GODs GOODNESS - verse 22.

Thus everyone who continues in God’s goodness will never be cut off the vine and from the new covenant Christ gave us.

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When you say "continuing", do you mean to say, they need to do good works after being saved, otherwise Christians can be cut off?

chad kincham said:

Absolutely incorrect. Being cut off or not is conditional on them CONTINUING IN GODs GOODNESS - verse 22.

Thus everyone who continues in God’s goodness will never be cut off the vine and from the new covenant Christ gave us.

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The root cause given for those cut off was their "unbelief"

In the NT we read of disciples leaving Jesus and it was noted Jesus knew who believed in Him and who did not.

If you continue in Gods kindness would be continue in your faith and that shows you really belong to Jesus.

Anyone who is born of God knows Jesus lives by the very Spirit of Christ living in them. They know Jesus and hear His voice. The new covenant the Father spoke of before hand that He would write on the hearts of the people that all would "know" Him.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

What work did the man on the cross next to Jesus do to have his "sins" forgiven?
And it is salvation by the forgiveness of sins.

Grace through "faith" not works of the law. or as Paul stated the importance "faith expressing itself through love"

God was able to keep some for Himself. Jesus is able to keep us safe from the evil one.
And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Those who claim Christ but do not do what He states have not known Him. Those who hold to His testimony and obey His commands truly belong to Him.

"Unbelief" as the root cause result "cutoff" no sacrifice is left.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,