Matt 24 - post trib rapture at the 2nd coming

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2021

DavidPT said:
What I'm arguing is that the earth doesn't literally go up in flames when Jesus returns, where everyone is burned to death. These passages I brought up require a place to come to pass on.

Though Luke 19:12-27, for example, is based on a parable, no one should argue that 'A certain nobleman' in verse 12 is not meaning Christ, and that 'went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom' is not meaning heaven during the ascension, and 'to return' is not meaning returning bodily back to earth via the 2nd coming. Of course it is meaning all those things.

But Amils have no earth for Christ to return to. The only earth they have for Christ to set foot on is the new earth, except Luke 19:27 could not be meaning the time of the new earth per Amil, because per Amil the new earth has no death in it, and that verse 27 does---But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. When is that meaning in the parable? After He has returned, obviously. Verse 27 doesn't depict anyone who was literally burned to death because the entire planet is supposed to be literally on fire according to Amil.

Amils believe this earth is regenerated. It is perfected. We come to reign and rule on it.

Give me Scripture that definitively states where the judgment is?

Timtofly · Mar 21, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Who are Gog and Magog that arise to overrun your supposed future millennial earth? And, do they sin?

Why do you need the specifics on a future event? There is no sin. Is foretelling the future a sin? You deny Isaiah 65 is about this time. Where is sin mentioned in Isaiah 65?

Is Revelation 20 a supposed chapter in the Bible? The millennium earth is new after being literally destroyed by fire. Would you claim it is still scorched just to prove a point? Is being "destroyed" the same thing as no longer existing? Do you interpret everything that is "destroyed", totally annihilated?

Do you figure the NHNE is a figurative 1000 years existence? You are the one denying a 1000 year time span and excusing it away.

sovereigngrace · Mar 21, 2021

Timtofly said:
Why do you need the specifics on a future event? There is no sin. Is foretelling the future a sin? You deny Isaiah 65 is about this time. Where is sin mentioned in Isaiah 65?

Is Revelation 20 a supposed chapter in the Bible? The millennium earth is new after being literally destroyed by fire. Would you claim it is still scorched just to prove a point? Is being "destroyed" the same thing as no longer existing? Do you interpret everything that is "destroyed", totally annihilated?

Do you figure the NHNE is a figurative 1000 years existence? You are the one denying a 1000 year time span and excusing it away.

Does betraying Christ and being a Satanist not constitute sin in your mind?

The corruption of this earth is "destroyed" but the earth itself remains, albeit in a new glorified state. Basically, a change occurs. So, there is no annihilation.

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Amils believe this earth is regenerated. It is perfected. We come to reign and rule on it.

Give me Scripture that definitively states where the judgment is?

So do pre-mill believe the earth is regenerated. But the NHNE is a totally different reality. Why are you denying a new reality? Regeneration is the same earth restored. The NHNE is a totally different creation altogether. Regenerate is too broad of a word to be used to describe the NHNE.

Why does the church abandon the New Jerusalem?

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I understand why you want to avoid this subject.

Does betraying Christ and being a Satanist not constitute sin in your mind?

I avoid speculation as much as possible.
Was Eve a Satanist?

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The corruption of this earth is "destroyed" but the earth itself remains, albeit in a new glorified state. Basically, a change occurs. So, there is no annihilation.

So heavens and earth do not flee away and dissolve into nothing? How does God create all things new and glorious, if you deny 1000 years of perfection itself can exist?

A change occurs at Armageddon. This change lasts for 1000 years. It is only to show that God will not punish mankind past the point He designed. It cannot get there by evolution or the will of man.

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
So do pre-mill believe the earth is regenerated. But the NHNE is a totally different reality. Why are you denying a new reality? Regeneration is the same earth restored. The NHNE is a totally different creation altogether. Regenerate is too broad of a word to be used to describe the NHNE.

Why does the church abandon the New Jerusalem?

Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning end. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” (telos) to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time”; “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
I avoid speculation as much as possible.
Was Eve a Satanist?

Eve was redeemed. She was a saved sinner. The billions of wicked that overrun your supposed sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium are enemies of Christ and are destroyed at the second coming.

So, does betraying Christ and being a Satanist not constitute sin in your mind?

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
you deny 1000 years of perfection itself can exist?

Your portrayal totally conflicts with the inspired text. You have invented a period that will never occur. You have invented an environment that will never occur.

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Hebrews 1:10-12 tells us, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning end. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” (telos) to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time”; “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

Denying that the Lord's Day and Second Coming is 1000 years in length does not help your argument. I already pointed out that this earth has a finite 8000 years predetermined life. A definite beginning and end. Saying Christ cannot reign for a 1000 years by stating His Coming is the end is nonsense. His Second Coming will not be over until His 1000 year reign. Jesus has to reign on earth and in full control, to hand it over. That is 100% physical and 100% spiritual. It is not a burnt offering He gives back. What pleasure does God have with burnt offerings? Especially one concocted by false doctrine of men? Death is still defeated after the 1000 years, and the earth is handed to God without defect. The predetermined life span over.

God will then create a NHNE around those bodies currently on the earth in a split second of time.

The thing I do not understand about amil is the constant obsession with sin and the seemingly inability of God to have a creation without sin in it. My dad taught me sin started 12 hours after the 6th day, but it never made sense to me. He was not even amil. It was not until last year the truth of Genesis 2 sank in and that the Sabbath was a perfect 1000 years without sin and without death, and even without rebellion. But no one gets it. Mankind is too obsessed with sin and hundreds of years of false teaching by a harlot church. The first rebellion was Adam's. Adam rebelled before Satan, because there could be no rebellion until Adam disobeyed God. That was the very act of rebellion that allowed Satan the excuse to rebel himself. But all have been taught the pagan Greek mythology of pre-worlds and sin and disobedience before sin and rebellion were even a reality. Satan's deception runs so deep, and then theology comes along denying the very Word of God and changing the Word into corruptible flesh and the image of Satan's own rebellion, thinking they are pleasing God. That is what I do not understand.

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Your portrayal totally conflicts with the inspired text. You have invented a period that will never occur. You have invented an environment that will never occur.

I invented Revelation 20 and convinced John to place it in God's Word?

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Eve was redeemed. She was a saved sinner. The billions of wicked that overrun your supposed sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium are enemies of Christ and are destroyed at the second coming.

So, does betraying Christ and being a Satanist not constitute sin in your mind?

That is speculation and avoiding the question. Was Eve a Satanist, yes or no?

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
I invented Revelation 20 and convinced John to place it in God's Word?

Rev 20 relates to the here-and-now, not some supposed period after the second coming.

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
That is speculation and avoiding the question. Was Eve a Satanist, yes or no?

No. But your so-called future millennium is saturated with them. I think you know that - thus your avoidance.

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
Denying that the Lord's Day and Second Coming is 1000 years in length does not help your argument. I already pointed out that this earth has a finite 8000 years predetermined life. A definite beginning and end. Saying Christ cannot reign for a 1000 years by stating His Coming is the end is nonsense. His Second Coming will not be over until His 1000 year reign. Jesus has to reign on earth and in full control, to hand it over. That is 100% physical and 100% spiritual. It is not a burnt offering He gives back. What pleasure does God have with burnt offerings? Especially one concocted by false doctrine of men? Death is still defeated after the 1000 years, and the earth is handed to God without defect. The predetermined life span over.

God will then create a NHNE around those bodies currently on the earth in a split second of time.

The thing I do not understand about amil is the constant obsession with sin and the seemingly inability of God to have a creation without sin in it. My dad taught me sin started 12 hours after the 6th day, but it never made sense to me. He was not even amil. It was not until last year the truth of Genesis 2 sank in and that the Sabbath was a perfect 1000 years without sin and without death, and even without rebellion. But no one gets it. Mankind is too obsessed with sin and hundreds of years of false teaching by a harlot church. The first rebellion was Adam's. Adam rebelled before Satan, because there could be no rebellion until Adam disobeyed God. That was the very act of rebellion that allowed Satan the excuse to rebel himself. But all have been taught the pagan Greek mythology of pre-worlds and sin and disobedience before sin and rebellion were even a reality. Satan's deception runs so deep, and then theology comes along denying the very Word of God and changing the Word into corruptible flesh and the image of Satan's own rebellion, thinking they are pleasing God. That is what I do not understand.

We have refuted your 8-day theory numerous times. It is not biblical. You admit you built it upon a Roman theory, yet you are unable to give us a historic paper that teaches this. Where does the Bible teach your invented 8000 years period? Where does it teach: "this earth has a finite 8000 years predetermined life"? It is time for you to biblically support your wild speculations or admit your beliefs are unscriptural.

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Rev 20 relates to the here-and-now, not some supposed period after the second coming.

I get that is why; you think it is sin infested. You are rejecting God's plan by rejecting the words of Revelation 20. John claims it comes after the battle of Armageddon. You are rejecting God's Word.

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
No. But your so-called future millennium is saturated with them. I think you know that - thus your avoidance.

If Eve was not a Satanist, by what authority do you claim future humans not even born yet are Satanist? They will listen to Satan the same way Eve did. They will make the same choice Eve did. They are not Satanist for the same reason Eve was not.

BABerean2 · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
John claims it comes after the battle of Armageddon. You are rejecting God's Word.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:

(which prove the book is not in chronological order)

Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.

He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.

He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?

He comes on a horse in chapter 19.

He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.

(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)

There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked?

Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.

Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

sovereigngrace · Mar 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
If Eve was not a Satanist, by what authority do you claim future humans not even born yet are Satanist? They will listen to Satan the same way Eve did. They will make the same choice Eve did. They are not Satanist for the same reason Eve was not.

Gog and Magog represent wickedness and evil. They hate Christ and His Word. How are they not sinners? That is ridiculous!

Timtofly · Mar 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
We have refuted your 8-day theory numerous times. It is not biblical. You admit you built it upon a Roman theory, yet you are unable to give us a historic paper that teaches this. Where does the Bible teach your invented 8000 years period? Where does it teach: "this earth has a finite 8000 years predetermined life"? It is time for you to biblically support your wild speculations or admit your beliefs are unscriptural.

I have. When are you going to stop rejecting God's Word? You cling to an amil theory. You think it is all worked out from Scripture. That could be preventing your view of other Scriptures. Since you base your view on Roman preterism, not sure how that is different than Romans with their 8 day week. And no, I do not base God's Word on Roman history, so you all can stop being so hypocritical in your accusations.

Matt 24 - post trib rapture at the 2nd coming

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