At exactly what time is Mark of the Beast given as choice to people?

NomNomPizza said:

Hey , I would like to know at exactly which point in the 7 year of tribulation is Mark of Beast given to people?

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It is not at the beginning. We cannot pinpoint an exact time, somewhere near the middle of he 7 years or a little later.

IntriKate said:

Good question, ive been curious too. Hope to see some answering with actual scriptures.

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IntriKate, since it is the mark of the beast. Actually the mark of the beast's name, Revelation 14:11.

The person will have to had become the beast, and the image made of him - which is the abomination of desolation. Before the buy/sell law is put into effect.

The abomination of desolation is really one of the few actual timeframes we can use to determine some of the other events. In Daniel 12:12 - blessed is he who remains 1335 days after the abomination of desolation is setup (paraphrased), i.e. remains faithful until the day Jesus returns - day 2520, the last day of the 7 years.

So working backwards, 1335 days before, is on day 1185 of the timeline when the aod will be set up. Which is 75 days before the exact middle of the 7 years, day 1260.

What we don't know is exactly when the requirement is given that no-one can buy or sell without the mark of the beast's name, the number of his name, or his name.

My "guess" is with around three years left in the 7 years.

BABerean2 said:

Anyone who promotes the idea of a future 70th week of Daniel ignores the word "after" in Daniel 9:26, and Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18. These passages reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was take "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. All efforts to disconnect the Messiah's death from the New Covenant fall apart in Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

The 7th trumpet and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18, prove the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.

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Do you have a verse other than Daniel 9:27 of any one in Scripture promoting the 70th week of Daniel in any form?

My post you quoted does not promote what you are denying can happen.

Does one have to be dogmatic about the 70th week being 7 years or 7 days?

The life of the Messiah is the point of anything after the 69th week. That is what Daniel writes. The rest is interpretation, and mostly speculation.

Does Revelation 10:7 fulfill Daniel 9:27 or not? Is the week split or not? What is your specific definition of a split?

I already claimed there were over 500 years between Daniel and the birth of Christ. I am not the one who has to be right on the specifics. Do I need to show proof, to prove you are correct? Historically 62 weeks fit, 69 weeks fit, 70 weeks fit. They are all shorter than 500 years.

If God claims completion at the sound of the 7th Trumpet, was God misinterpreting Daniel 9?

You all can fight over the specifics. But Daniel 9:27 sounds more like God's declaration in Revelation 10:7, than any explanation any human has ever presented.

NOTE: I have skipped over certain verses on purpose. To explain it all in detail would go beyond the scope of this thread and require several posts. Instead, I'm covering details that are pertinent to the thread.

Revelation 13 describes two beasts. One that arises out of the sea, another that arises out of the earth.

First, we need to understand what a beast is. Daniel 7:23 describes a beast as a kingdom. A kingdom is a power, not necessarily a monarchy. There are details that describe what type of power each beast is.

Satan (the dragon) is the one who gives power to the beast of the sea (Revelation 13:4). The beast of the sea works in concert with the beast of the earth. Each power plays a role.

The Beast of the Sea

The beast of the sea is a combination of civil and religious power. It blasphemes God (religious) and it has power over all kindreds, tongues and nations (civil). It is a persecuting power, because it makes war with the saints.

• 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
• 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
• 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
• 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
• 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The Beast of the Earth

The beast of the earth is a civil power which is Christ-like, but speaks like a dragon. It exercises the power of the first beast and causes the whole earth to worship it. It does great wonders, making fire come down from heaven in the sight of men. It deceives the whole earth by the miracles it had power to do in the sight of the beast. It tells the earth to make the an image of the beast. It has power to give life to the image of the beast, that it should speak and cause those who will not worship the image of the beast to be killed. It causes all to receive a mark in their right hand or in their forehead. It prevents those who do not have the mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name from buying and selling.

• 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
• 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
• 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
• 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
• 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
• 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
• 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Who and When?

The identifying characteristics give us plenty to look for in world powers—both religious and civil.

The beast of the sea should be able to be easily identified. There is only one civil-religious power that matches. The beast of the earth came up around the same time as the beast of the sea and will work in concert with it to complete Satan's plan.

The general consensus is that we're waiting for a new world order-like power shift that will usher in the mark, but these two beasts have been working together for a long time on the humanitarian front. The beast of the earth's influence on the world since its inception is unmatched by any other power. It begs the question... has the beast of the sea been controlling things all along, setting up the system, influencing the world and preparing it for a time when it could come forward? Or are the two powers not yet working together toward that common goal? Questions to make you rub your chin.

The purpose of this post is to make you think and consider the characteristics found in Revelation 13, so that you can put two and two together and come to your own conclusions. There are many more details we can glean from scripture, but these are the sorts of things that end up being 600 page books.

Long story short, I can speculate about when, but I don't know. I can surmise if we're close, based on the aforementioned alone. I think we're close.

7 Years?

The seven year tribulation is a misunderstanding of the last week of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel. The seven year prophecy happened surrounding the baptism (27 AD), ministry and crucifixion (31 AD) of Jesus, the stoning of Stephen (34 AD) and the gospel going to the Gentiles. The exposition of this prophecy would be better suited in another thread.

This would then make the duration of the tribulation indeterminate, aside from prophesied events so that we can know we're close.

Timtofly said:

That is why one has to define what tribulation even means. There is no 7 years "of". The post Cross NT part of church started in the first century. Are you saying the church ended in the first century as well? Daniel's 70th week cannot even start back up until after the church is taken away. Are you claiming the last half of Daniel's 70th week has been the last 1900+ years, and there is no church and Satan has been in control? Is 42 months figurative of an indefinite period of time?

I agree that the Great Tribulation started and has been ongoing for the whole church age. The Great Tribulation is not part of Daniel's 70th week. The mark comes after Satan is given his 42 months. This also splits the week of the 7th Trumpet. The mark happens after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound, about 3 days after. The mid point of that week, Wednesday is when Satan is allowed control, and then the mark starts showing up, and names are removed from the Lamb's book of life.

8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

The mark is directly related to having one's name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will indeed drink the wine of God’s fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb"

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Do you think that everyone has the same understanding of Daniel and the time period that you have? As I said this is not just a simple issue because the answers about eschatological issues depends entirely on your viewpoint, there are four major views and several modifications of those views.

Timtofly said:

Do you have a verse other than Daniel 9:27 of any one in Scripture promoting the 70th week of Daniel in any form?

My post you quoted does not promote what you are denying can happen.

Does one have to be dogmatic about the 70th week being 7 years or 7 days?

The life of the Messiah is the point of anything after the 69th week. That is what Daniel writes. The rest is interpretation, and mostly speculation.

Does Revelation 10:7 fulfill Daniel 9:27 or not? Is the week split or not? What is your specific definition of a split?

I already claimed there were over 500 years between Daniel and the birth of Christ. I am not the one who has to be right on the specifics. Do I need to show proof, to prove you are correct? Historically 62 weeks fit, 69 weeks fit, 70 weeks fit. They are all shorter than 500 years.

If God claims completion at the sound of the 7th Trumpet, was God misinterpreting Daniel 9?

You all can fight over the specifics. But Daniel 9:27 sounds more like God's declaration in Revelation 10:7, than any explanation any human has ever presented.

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The Messiah is cut off "after" the 69 weeks in Daniel 9:26, which would be during the 70th week.

The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores with his Two Peoples of God doctrine.

What is the understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the Geneva Bible?

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Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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Based on the above, the Pilgrims understood the Messiah's death must be connected to the New Covenant, as confirmed in Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

Therefore, the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, is the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.
Remember the fact that Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared to give the 70 weeks prophecy.

The 70th week is revealed in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

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Hammster said:

Coming on a cloud isn’t the second coming.

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2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

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Freth said:

The beast of the sea is a combination of civil and religious power. It blasphemes God (religious) and it has power over all kindreds, tongues and nations (civil). It is a persecuting power, because it makes war with the saints.

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High Feth, it going to be pretty hard to be a "power" and not a person - for when Jesus returns to be cast alive into the lake of fire.

I place the ten crowns on the horns, as being on one of the heads - because they rule with the beast one hour (Revelation 17:12) - i.e. the 42 months. It's going to be pretty hard for the one hour to be construed as 42 years.

Do you have a SDA pictorial version of the first beast in Revelation 13?

NomNomPizza said:

Hey , I would like to know at exactly which point in the 7 year of tribulation is Mark of Beast given to people?

Is it at the beginning when Antichrist comes to power and confirms peace treaty with many?
Is it in the middle when he desolated temple?

Pleace include Scriptures to prove your point thanks

edit) Forgot to add , if this can't be known or it's not in the Bible itself is also a good answer I just want to know if its even there or I keep looking for something which cannot be found..

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Welcome! Stop looking , it's not there. What is there in Revelation are the events that happened in that generation The first century. This is the partial Preterist view. Be blessed.

Douggg said:

High Feth, it going to be pretty hard to be a "power" and not a person - for when Jesus returns to be cast alive into the lake of fire.

I place the ten crowns on the horns, as being on one of the heads - because they rule with the beast one hour (Revelation 17:12) - i.e. the 42 months. It's going to be pretty hard for the one hour to be construed as 42 years.

Do you have a SDA pictorial version of the first beast in Revelation 13?


View attachment 296633

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Notice that the beast is a kingdom/power, but is called a "he". This is why "he" is cast into the lake of fire. It's not a man, but a power structure. The "he" is not one person, but people who make up the power structure and cause all to worship the beast. Is there one person at the top as a figure-head? Yes. Is he working alone to achieve his goals? No.


The 42 months was the 1260 years of papal rule and Christian persecution during the dark ages, from 538 AD to 1798 AD. The deadly wound occurred in 1798, during the French Revolution, when Berthier took the pope into captivity; the pope died in captivity. (This brings up a point. No one person can live 1260 years to persecute 50 million Christians. This is a power, made up of many people. The pope didn't do it alone, there were other guilty parties.)




Christians were persecuted. God's times and laws were changed. Remember that Daniel was told to seal up the book until the time of the end (his writings). This is because new light would come during the Reformation that would unlock the book Revelation, so that it could be clearly understood. Historical events had to take place so that the prophecies could be recognized and the beast identified.

I believe we do have pictorial representations of the beast of the sea. I saw this one the other day. I don't think it matters which head the horns are on, it's still the same beast that works in concert with the ten kings that are given power for one hour. In my mind, I think this is the last-ditch effort for a one world government. The world is divided into ten divisions (ten kings), in an effort for supreme control, but they only rule for one hour.

The one hour can be literal or if you take the day-for-a-year principle into account it would be 15 days (my own calculation; I am awful at math). The fact that they only rule for one hour shows that their power is cut off by the second coming. They don't go quietly. The wicked hide under rocks, but the powers are defiant (because Satan is behind it all).


Imagine the utter futility of trying to war against the most High, coming for His people. I would not want to be a part of that group.

Freth said:

The 42 months was the 1260 years of papal rule and Christian persecution during the dark ages, from 538 AD to 1798 AD.

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Freth, if you make the 42 months of the beast's rule into 1260 years, then who are the ten kings who rule with the beast for that 1260 years?

disciple Clint said:

Do you think that everyone has the same understanding of Daniel and the time period that you have? As I said this is not just a simple issue because the answers about eschatological issues depends entirely on your viewpoint, there are four major views and several modifications of those views.

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Daniel 9:27 is completed in the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10:7.

I am not sure any other human has that view. How the 7th Trumpet ends is not written in stone. Saying that one knows seems foolishness to me. The state of the church this very minute on earth and what the church will do in the immediate future is the determining factor. 2 Chronicles 7:14

"If my people, who bear my name, will humble themselves, pray, seek my face and turn from their evil ways, I will hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land."

NomNomPizza said:

Hey , I would like to know at exactly which point in the 7 year of tribulation is Mark of Beast given to people?

Is it at the beginning when Antichrist comes to power and confirms peace treaty with many?
Is it in the middle when he desolated temple?

Pleace include Scriptures to prove your point thanks

edit) Forgot to add , if this can't be known or it's not in the Bible itself is also a good answer I just want to know if its even there or I keep looking for something which cannot be found..

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I believe the Mark of the Beast will most likely be implemented when he declares himself to be God (2 Thess. 3-4) which will be when the prophet Daniel says that he will break a covenant with Israel that he had sworn to uphold (Dan. 9:27)

Revelation chapter 13 also depicts the Mark of the Beast being implemented around the same time that all people are commanded to either worship him or face death.

Hammster said:

But it still doesn’t make coming on the cloud His second coming. You’ll have to go to the OT to find out what it means

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In Acts 1, Jesus left this world ascending up into a cloud, out of sight. The two angels informed the disciples that Jesus will come in like manner. Implying His second coming back down to earth.

In Daniel 7:13 on the heaven side of that same event, Jesus arrives in the third heaven on the clouds of heaven.

Douggg said:

Freth, if you make the 42 months of the beast rule into 1260 years, then who are the ten kings who rule with the beast for that 1260 years?

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Daniel and Revelation both mention the 42 months. Daniel was looking forward, but John was looking back—Daniel 7: lion, bear, leopard <-> Revelation 13: leopard, bear, lion.

Notice these verses (below). They point to the very end when the beast of the sea will achieve a power structure that includes ten kings for one hour. This appears to be the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were, because I believe Jesus cuts their rule short with the second coming.

The finality of these statements show that this is at the very end.

The way we can know that the 42 months doesn't apply to the very end is because there is "time no longer":

The time prophecies were ended with the completion of the 2300 year prophecy (457 BC to 1844 AD). The end time events are not to be time-matched. Jesus is coming as a thief in the night. We are to watch and be sober.

BABerean2 said:

The Messiah is cut off "after" the 69 weeks in Daniel 9:26, which would be during the 70th week.

The 1599 Geneva Bible is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America, before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores with his Two Peoples of God doctrine.

What is the understanding of Daniel 9:27 found below in the notes of the Geneva Bible?

--------------------------------------------------

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

--------------------------------------------------

Based on the above, the Pilgrims understood the Messiah's death must be connected to the New Covenant, as confirmed in Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 12:22-24.

Therefore, the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27, is the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.
Remember the fact that Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared to give the 70 weeks prophecy.

The 70th week is revealed in Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:36-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal a time period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

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I agree that the 70th week is all about an earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not the one stating what confines this earthly ministry to the first century. I am not the one claiming all of Daniel 9 has been fulfilled. I am not the one denying that Jesus Christ at the Second Coming will have a few more years on earth to confirm the Covenant for one week. Revelation 10:7 is when God declares His plan will be brought to completion. It happens in the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

Freth said:

I believe we do have pictorial representations of the beast of the sea. I saw this one the other day. I don't think it matters which head the horns are on, it's still the same beast that works in concert with the ten kings that are given power for one hour.

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I looked at that pictorial.

The beast has a mouth of a lion. And in verse Revelation 13:5 a mouth speaking great things and blaspheme.

The pictorial shows in addition to the lion... several other different heads, i.e. bears, leopards, dragon - but I am not reading that there are heads of those beasts on the beast coming out of the sea. I don't think that pictorial is accurate.

The is one head that is mortally wounded but healed, and a mouth speaking blasphemies, and the mouth of a lion. And the ten horns rule with the beast. It only makes sense if the horns are on that one head.

7:06AM

Timtofly said:

I am not the one claiming all of Daniel 9 has been fulfilled.

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Do you believe Jesus failed in His mission to fulfill the New Covenant during the first century?

Do you believe the Messiah's death in Daniel 9:26 has nothing to do with the New Covenant, no matter what we find in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 9:15, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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