Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
It would be considered the highest form of love, to have concern for the well being of another person, to be willing to die for another.

Agape love is selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love. It is the highest of the four types of love in the Bible.

This Greek word, agápē (pronounced uh-GAH-pay), and variations of it are frequently found throughout the New Testament but rarely in non-Christian Greek literature. Agape love perfectly describes the kind of love Jesus Christ has for his Father and for his followers.

Source: Agape: What Does the Bible Say About this Highest Form of Love?

Hammster · Mar 22, 2021

The only way someone can lose their salvation is if the Father ignores the intercession of the Son. Losing salvation means a break in unity of the Trinity.

Clare73 · Mar 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
See now, there it is --again we find someone agreeing with us at every point, jet somehow an opposite conclusion.

The Elect are not apostate, in the end. Their salvation is secure. They MUST, therefore, persevere. If they do not, they are not saved after all.

Apostates fall from a profession of faith, none fall from a possession of faith.

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

Clare73 · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
You are working hard to misundertand what the terms fall and apostasy mean

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

I am working hard to:
defend the Biblical usage of the word (forsake, falling away, Ac 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to
defend its dictionary definition, and to
defend its consistency with Scripture, which Scriptures you fail to address:

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

for they obviously go against OSAS. Again, you yourself have used 'defection' and 'revolt' as definitions of apostasy. If one was never really saved, never really a Christian, how then can one defect, revolt from what he never was? He cannot.

"If a person quit smoking then his quitting proves he never really smoked". This statement is not logical for one cannot quit what they never started. The "never really saved" has always been a bad, illogical excuse offered up in an arrempt to get around the Bible verses that clearly show men can fall away, become apostates.

John 6 the ones that God gives to Christ are the ones who conditionally believe (John 6:35) and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life John 6:40. Meaning if they quit believing then they may not have everlasting life. Judas was one who believed that God gave to Jesus and Jesus kept, John 17:6-8) but Judas quit believing becoming lost (John 17:12). But those who believe and continue to believe Christ shall not lose one of them.

Hammster · Mar 22, 2021

Hammster said:
Again, I asked specifically if God gives sheep to His Son? Answering a question that I didn’t ask isn’t really good form.

@Butterball1, I was wondering if you were going to answer this.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I understand that. I just don't agree with it. Can we every really measure up? What is the point of the atonement if we can? The penalty of death is paid on our behalf, not earned by our own doing.

I'm a human being, not a human doing.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

I agree with it for the Bible teaches it. God never required sinsless perfection for a person to "measure up" but a simpl faithful obedience unto death.

Obedience is a condition that must be met in order to receive the promise of etenal life. Meeting the condition placed upon a free gift never earns the free gift. Many examples in the Bible, OT and NT, of people being obedient to God's will in order to receive God's free gift yet not one time is their obedience said to have earned then God's free gift.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Agape love is selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love. It is the highest of the four types of love in the Bible.

This Greek word, agápē (pronounced uh-GAH-pay), and variations of it are frequently found throughout the New Testament but rarely in non-Christian Greek literature. Agape love perfectly describes the kind of love Jesus Christ has for his Father and for his followers.

Source: Agape: What Does the Bible Say About this Highest Form of Love?

God has a general love for all mankind as seen in John 3:16 in sending Christ to die for mankind. But this does not mean in any way salvation is unconditional. God requires one to conditinally have faith to be saved for the unbeliever will be lost John 3:18.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

I am working hard to:
defend the Biblical usage of the word (forsake, falling away, Ac 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to
defend its dictionary definition, and to
defend its consistency with Scripture, which Scriptures you fail to address:

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

You keep talking about those who were never really saved in the first place and that is not the issue. The issue is about those who are truly saved and fall from that saved position, those who move away from a previous standing (saved) to another position (lost). Again, if OSAS were true then fall and apostasy are meaning less terms. John 6 does not remotely support your position, see the use of present tense and subjunctive mood of John 6:40. The none Jesus loses are the ones who conditionally have and maintain a present tense belief unto death. See John 17 where Judas was given to Christ by God and Christ kept Judas but Judas ending up lost for he did not maintain a present tense belief.

Near the end of John 6:66-67 it says "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" Some of Jesus own disciples ("his" possessive pronoun) turned from Christ and walked no more with Him. Christ then turns to His own 12 Apostles saying "will you ALSO go away?". The question asked by Christ implies that His own Apostles could ALSO turn from Christ and walk no more with Him as those in verse 66 did. The context, the question asked by Christ make no sense if there if apostasy, falling away were impossible.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Hammster said:
@Butterball1, I was wondering if you were going to answer this.

I did, see my posts #35 and #51.

Hammster · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
I did, see my posts #35 and #51.

Those don’t say anything about sheep, and my question was specifically about sheep. So, does the Father give sheep to the Son? Yes? No?

Clare73 · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
You keep talking about those who were never really saved in the first place and that is not the issue. The issue is about those who are truly saved and fall from that saved position those who move away from a previous standing (saved) to another position (lost).

Jesus said that does not happen.
That is your misunderstanding of religious apostasy.

See the following Scriptures, which you fail to address.

According to Jesus there are no such people, because he loses none of the saved; i.e., those whom the Father has given him.

Therefore. . .those who fall were never really saved in the first place.

They professed faith, but they did not possess true faith, because Jesus said he loses none of the saved; i.e., those whom the Father has given him.

Your issue is with Jesus, not me.

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

Again, if OSAS were true then fall and apostasy are meaning less terms. John 6 does not remotely support your position, see the use of present tense and subjunctive mood of John 6:40. The none Jesus loses are the ones who conditionally have and maintain a present tense belief unto death.

Precisely. . .the truly saved do not fall away through unbelief.

]See John 17 where Judas was given to Christ by God and Christ kept Judas but
Judas ending up lost for he did not maintain a present tense belief.

Judas was lost through unbelief because he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

Near the end of John 6:66-67 it says "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" Some of Jesus own disciples ("his" possessive pronoun) turned from Christ and walked no more with Him.

Counterfeit faith is not known until it is tested, and "in the time of testing they fall away" (Luke 8:13), as did those disciples, and as did Judas, none of whom were true disciples.

Christ then turns to His own 12 Apostles saying "will you ALSO go away?". The question asked by Christ implies that His own Apostles could ALSO turn from Christ

He was testing them, for they weren't his own until their faith was tested and passed the test.
"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

and walk no more with Him as those in verse 66 did. The context, the question asked by Christ make no sense if there if apostasy, falling away were impossible.

It is not impossible to fall away from counterfeit (profession) faith, which is what the deserters and Judas had; but it is impossible to fall away from true faith, which is what the 11 had.
But all faith, true and counterfeit, is tested.

I've addressed Jn 6:40, 66-67, 17:12 in consistency with the above Scriptures,
you still have not addressed the Scriptures presented above (Jn 6:37, 39, 65).

Der Alte · Mar 22, 2021

Romans 11:21-22
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If one does not continue in God’s goodness they will be cut off

John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Speaks for itself.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

If one does not keep in memory what was preached they are not saved.

Galatians 6:9
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

If one faints they will not reap.

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

If one does not hold fast unto the end they are not part of Jesus’ house.

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If one is not steadfast until the end they are not partakers of Christ.

Hebrews 10:38-39
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If one draws back Jesus will have no pleasure in him.

Colossians 1:22-23
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If one does not continue in the faith and is moved away from the hope of the gospel, they will not be presented holy, unblameable and unreproveable in God’s sight

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

If we do not hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end we are not Jesus’ house.

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If we do not hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end, we are not made partakers of Christ;

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Jesus said that does not happen.
That is your misunderstanding of religious apostasy.

See the following Scriptures, which you fail to address.

According to Jesus there are no such people, because he loses none of the saved; i.e., those whom the Father has given him.

Therefore. . .those who fall were never really saved in the first place.

They professed faith, but they did not possess true faith, because Jesus said he loses none of the saved; i.e., those whom the Father has given him.

Your issue is with Jesus, not me.

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

Precisely. . .the truly saved do not fall away through unbelief.
Judas was lost through unbelief because he was "doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
Counterfeit faith is not known until it is tested, and "in the time of testing they fall away" (Luke 8:13), as did those disciples, and as did Judas, none of whom were true disciples.
He was testing them, for they weren't his own until their faith was tested and passed the test.
"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

It is not impossible to fall away from counterfeit (profession) faith, which is what the deserters and Judas had; but it is impossible to fall away from true faith, which is what the 11 had.
But all faith, true and counterfeit, is tested.

I've addressed Jn 6:40, 66-67, 17:12 in consistency with the above Scriptures,
you still have not addressed the Scriptures presented above (Jn 6:37, 39, 65).

Jesus NEVER said it is impossible for one to fall away and become lost.

Again, you keep talking about those who were never saved (counterfeit faith). Those never saved were never saved. Yet the issue is about those who were saved but fall away.

I have addressed John 6 multiple times in this thread. Those who God gives to Christ are those who believe. And those that continue to believe shall not be lost. Those who quit believing will be lost. If a person quit believing does that prove he never did really believe? No, because quitting logically implies he did believe for one cannot quit what he never started.

The "never really saved" argument is not logically or Biblically based, it has always been a poor attempt to get around the facts given in the Bible.

Clare73 · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Jesus NEVER said it is impossible for one to fall away and become lost.

Speaking of which, we will continue this discussion when you specifically address these Scriptures, being true to the text:

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

Again, you keep talking about those who were never saved (counterfeit faith). Those never saved were never saved. Yet the issue is about those who were saved but fall away.

I have addressed John 6 multiple times in this thread. Those who God gives to Christ are those who believe. And those that continue to believe shall not be lost. Those who quit believing will be lost. If a person quit believing does that prove he never did really believe? No, because quitting logically implies he did believe for one cannot quit what he never started.

The "never really saved" argument is not logically or Biblically based, it has always been a poor attempt to get around the facts given in the Bible.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Hammster said:
Those don’t say anything about sheep, and my question was specifically about sheep. So, does the Father give sheep to the Son? Yes? No?

The word "sheep" does not appear in John 6.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This verse by itself does specify who the ones are that God gives to Christ. But verse 35 does "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."
Those that have a present tense coming to Christ and present tense believing on Christ are the ones God gives to Christ. Those that continue to come to Christ and continue to believe on Christ will not be lost. What about those who quit coming to Christ and belieivng on Him? They will be lost.

If you want a passage that specifically speaks of "sheep":

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Who is the "them" that will be given eternal life and the "they" that shall never perish? Just anyone UNconditionally? No! Those that are Christ sheep. Can anyone be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally? No!
The verse clearly points out the only ones that qualify to be a sheep are those that CONDITIONALLY have a present tense 'hearing' and 'following'.

So when Christ said "my sheep" that specifically refers to only those that continually hear and follow Him. And it is only these sheep they continually hear and follow Christ that make up the pronouns "they" and "them" of verse 28. Those that quit hearing and following no longer meet the necessary qualifications to be of Christ sheep. They have removed themselves from God's hand losing the promise of eternal life for failing to continue to meet the necessary qualifications to be a sheep of Christ.

Men hear and follow by their own volition therefore can stop hearing and following by that same volition. Nothing says it is impossible for one to stop hearing and following nor if one quits he "never really" heard and followed.

Butterball1 · Mar 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Speaking of which, we will continue this discussion when you specifically address these Scriptures, being true to the text:

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

I have already addressed John 6 multiple times.

Look at John 6:40 again:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The verb "believeth" is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. "May have" is subjunctive mood. Combing the two the verse shows one MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending upon the circumstance of one continues to believe or not. If he continues to beleive he may have everlastig life. If he quits believing he may not have everlasting life. To get around this the NIV chnaged the subjunctive 'may" to indicative 'shall'. So those that are raised up per v39 are the ones that CONDITIONALLY continue to believe per v40. V40 is a re-statement of v39.

So the ones God gives to Christ are those who conditionally believe. And those that continually believe will not be lost. Yet those that quit believing MAY NOT have everlasting life if they turn to unbelief.

Again, nothing in John 6 says it is impossible for a believer to quit believing. Nor is there anything that says if one quits believing then he "never really" believed.

Hammster · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
The word "sheep" does not appear in John 6.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." This verse by itself does specify who the ones are that God gives to Christ. But verse 35 does "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."
Those that have a present tense coming to Christ and present tense believing on Christ are the ones God gives to Christ. Those that continue to come to Christ and continue to believe on Christ will not be lost. What about those who quit coming to Christ and belieivng on Him? They will be lost.

If you want a passage that specifically speaks of "sheep":

John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Who is the "them" that will be given eternal life and the "they" that shall never perish? Just anyone UNconditionally? No! Those that are Christ sheep. Can anyone be a sheep of Christ UNconditionally? No!
The verse clearly points out the only ones that qualify to be a sheep are those that CONDITIONALLY have a present tense 'hearing' and 'following'.

So when Christ said "my sheep" that specifically refers to only those that continually hear and follow Him. And it is only these sheep they continually hear and follow Christ that make up the pronouns "they" and "them" of verse 28. Those that quit hearing and following no longer meet the necessary qualifications to be of Christ sheep. They have removed themselves from God's hand losing the promise of eternal life for failing to continue to meet the necessary qualifications to be a sheep of Christ.

Men hear and follow by their own volition therefore can stop hearing and following by that same volition. Nothing says it is impossible for one to stop hearing and following nor if one quits he "never really" heard and followed.

Too bad that you don’t know the answer, especially since you were so close. So I’ll help.

The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:24-29

Notice what He says about the sheep given to Him by His Father. “they will never perish”

Clare73 · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
I have already addressed John 6 multiple times.

Look at John 6:40 again:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The verb "believeth" is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action. "May have" is subjunctive mood. Combing the two the verse shows one MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending upon the circumstance of one continues to believe or not. If he continues to beleive he may have everlastig life. If he quits believing he may not have everlasting life. To get around this the NIV chnaged the subjunctive 'may" to indicative 'shall'. So those that are raised up per v39 are the ones that CONDITIONALLY continue to believe per v40. V40 is a re-statement of v39.

So the ones God gives to Christ are those who conditionally believe. And those that continually believe will not be lost. Yet those that quit believing MAY NOT have everlasting life if they turn to unbelief.

Again, nothing in John 6 says it is impossible for a believer to quit believing. Nor is there anything that says if one quits believing then he "never really" believed.

These Scriptures remain unaddressed specfically, being true to their text:

Matthew 9:13 - "Now go learn what these mean":

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .because those whom the Father gives him have true faith, which does not (truly) apostasize.

We'll continue the discussion when you do.

Just so you understand what I am saying:
those whom the Father gives to Jesus have the gift of true faith (Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1;
Romans 12:3; Acts 13:48, 18:27), which perseveres to the end without permanently falling away because of the Holy Spirit's preserving work in them "to will and to act according to God's good purpose." (Philippians 2:13)

Those who the Father gives to Jesus, and whom Jesus does not lose, do not fall away from the faith because of God's preserving work in them, keeping them from falling away from the faith.

"My sheep. . .shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me (what my Father has given to me) is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of my Father's hand (including themselves)." (John 10:28-29)

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2021

Butterball1 said:
I agree with it for the Bible teaches it. God never required sinsless perfection for a person to "measure up" but a simpl faithful obedience unto death.

Obedience is a condition that must be met in order to receive the promise of etenal life. Meeting the condition placed upon a free gift never earns the free gift. Many examples in the Bible, OT and NT, of people being obedient to God's will in order to receive God's free gift yet not one time is their obedience said to have earned then God's free gift.

Salvation by works then.

Mark Quayle · Mar 22, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That sounds contradictory.
Why MUST the elect persevere if their salvation is secure? If their salvation is dependent on perseverance, then it is not secure, it is in fact in peril.

Sounds like a slippery slope to me. To fail to persevere = damnation. What's the point of the atonement if it is dependent on us? Seems like such a waste of the only-begotten. What was the point?

Then let me call them the 'supposed elect'. Though we can be confident, we can fool ourselves; therefore, we don't know for sure who the elect are until they are in heaven. If the 'supposed elect' does not persevere, he was not elect. But the perseverance depends on God, as does the calling and the election, the faith, the walk and obedience. We work all the harder, not to make our calling and election sure, thought that too, of course; not to make ourselves approved of God, though that too, of course, but because we love him, and need to be close to him. The love of Christ drives us. Without him we can do nothing.

We are one with Christ, both in joy and suffering. How can we not work to persevere? But if we don't, we were not one with Christ.

Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

You can call me Steve

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