Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

Rachel20 said:

That verse opposes your conclusion, since Jesus says "I never knew you"

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Jesus is speaking to never having a relationship with them, because they didn't seek one. Instead, they professed Jesus, but remained in sin (iniquity, as the verse says).

Ephesians states that He chose us from the foundation of the world. This would include all of us as His sheep.


If we weren't His lost sheep in the first place, how can we be found? Every hair on your head is numbered, every thought and action is weighed at judgment. Jesus knows you quite well, better than you know yourself.

Freth said:

Jesus is speaking to never having a relationship with them, because they didn't seek one. Instead, they professed Jesus, but remained in sin (iniquity, as the verse says).

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It wasn't clear you were presenting Matthew 7:22-23 in the context of false Christians who were never saved. It's an important distinction, because your statement below is an argument for non-OSAS even though the verse itself has Jesus saying "I never knew you".

"In the letters to the seven churches, we can see how Christians can fall by the wayside and how Jesus will reject them. This isn't the only verse where Jesus says this."

Rachel20 said:

It wasn't clear you were presenting Matthew 7:22-23 in the context of false Christians who were never saved. It's an important distinction, because your statement below is an argument for non-OSAS even though the verse itself has Jesus saying "I never knew you".

"In the letters to the seven churches, we can see how Christians can fall by the wayside and how Jesus will reject them. This isn't the only verse where Jesus says this."

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These are professed Christians, claiming to be prophets and casting out devils and doing many wonderful works in Jesus name. Clearly, Jesus is displeased with them, because He rejects them. This does not support OSAS.

I also brought up the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. A virgin is a symbol of the God's people, His church. The wise virgins trimmed their lamps and brought oil. Oil is a symbol of anointing; the Holy Spirit. The foolish virgins did not and went to go buy oil. The door to the marriage supper of the Lamb closed while they were gone. This does not support OSAS.

In Revelation 22, Jesus tells the church of Laodicea... because you are neither cold nor hot but lukewarm, I will spue you out of my mouth. "Because you say,`I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." This does not support OSAS.

Here is a verse that seems to support OSAS:


But read it again. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. It is with the heart that the man believes -> unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses -> unto salvation.

If the man no longer believes and the mouth no longer confesses, the word unto (the archaic meaning for the word 'to') doesn't go anywhere; it's conditional. The Christian walk must be kept to a certain standard—holiness, righteousness, obedience.


May have points to a heavenly inheritance that can be lost. Jesus even gives clear indicators as to why. Disobedience. Sin. Christians can fall into a sinful state where the conditions are not met.

All are welcome to disagree with my posts. I defer to my signature:

Butterball1 said:

The sheep belonged to the shepherd and the coin belonged to the woman but they became lost. Again, if OSAS were true, then becoming lost is an IMPOSSIBILITY.

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That would be like saying you should NEVER travel by air, because someone in the past died in plane crash. I think driving a car probably has a higher likelihood of a fatal crash.

Butterball1 said:

AGAIN, salvation is not monergistic and unconditional. Salvation is conditional upon man having faith therefore man's role in his own salvation is to have faith and keep that faith unto death (Revelation 2:10). Those that do God will save for certain. Yet those who cast aside their faith no longer meet the conditions God placed upon salvation therefore those men lose that promise of salvation. So losing the promise of salvation is not about God undoing anything but about man abandoning the necessary conditions God placed upon salvation.

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I don't agree with anything in your post. Not about us; never was.
We seem to be at an impasse. - lol

Freth said:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

These are professed Christians, claiming to be prophets and casting out devils and doing many wonderful works in Jesus name. Clearly, Jesus is displeased with them, because He rejects them. This does not support OSAS.

I also brought up the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. The wise virgins trimmed their lamps and brought oil. The foolish virgins did not and went to go buy oil. The door to the marriage supper of the Lamb closed while they were gone. This does not support OSAS.

In Revelation 22, Jesus tells the church of Laodicea... because you are neither cold nor hot but lukewarm, I will spue you out of my mouth. "Because you say,`I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." This does not support OSAS.

Here is a verse that seems to support OSAS:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

But read it again. If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. It is with the heart that the man believes -> unto righteousness and with the mouth confesses -> unto salvation.

If the man no longer believes and the mouth no longer confesses, the word unto (the archaic meaning for the word 'to') doesn't go anywhere; it's conditional. The Christian walk must be kept to a certain standard—holiness, righteousness, obedience.

Revelation 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have [a direct translation; Strong's G2071] right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie [sin]."​

May have points to a heavenly inheritance that can be lost. Jesus even gives clear indicators as to why. Disobedience. Sin. Christians can fall into a sinful state where the conditions are not met.

All are welcome to disagree with my posts. I defer to my signature:

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You seem to include false professors with Christians, though you note belief must be on the heart level. But belief at the heart level is not substantiated in the verses you quote. Nothing in the letter to the Laodiceans in Revelation show they became lukewarm after being hot or cold. Nothing in the false prophets in Matthew 7 show they ever knew the Lord. What seems to be established is only that they profess Christ, which is why Christ says he will profess that he never knew them. These are much like the disciples of John 6:66 who were only followers of Christ in the sense of being students - studying him, his word, but never really believing and so they "went back and followed him no more". The requisite faith was never there. Same thing with Judas who was stealing money from the purse the whole time he was "following" Christ as a disciple (John 12:6)

Butterball1 said:

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

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"Previous standing" being "standing" as a Christian.

I can have "standing" as a hairdresser, only to discover I've never been to beauty school.
It happens all the time.

apostasia......apo = away from......stasia = leave from previous standing. It literally means to move away from one's previous standing. The word "fall" refers to the same idea. If I fall from a tree to the ground then my positon has obviously chnged from being up in the tree to now down on the ground.

Acts of the Apostles 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia), saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs."
Paul is attacked for preaching to Jews to forsake Moses (ie, forsake the law of Moses). The law of Moses was given to the Jews to keep, to circumcise, offerer sacrifices, etc. Paul was telling those Jews to leave, defect from, abandon that OT law to the NT gospel. The idea is the Jews would have to leave, abandon, forsake, "move away" from their old position in keeping the law, leave that previous standing to now following the NT gospel. Those Jews could not "move away" from, forsake, abandon the law of Moses if they never had it to believe and fwalk after to begin with.

Above you cite "abandonment or renunciation" as to what apostasia means. How can one abandon what he never had/possessed? How can one abandon the faith of the NT if he never had it to begin with?

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
A couple of observation from James 5:
--"err FROM the truth" how can one err from the truth, abandon the truth if he never had or never was in the truth to begin with?
--those called "brethren" are now called "sinners" who need to be converted again back to the truth he forsaked, abandoned, apostatized away from.
--

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Misunderstanding of the Biblical use of a word becomes misunderstanding of the text.

Apostasy - a defection, revolt; used in the NT of defection from religion/faith

Acts 21:21 - to forsake ("teaching to defect from Moses")

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - the falling away (from the faith, not from condemnation)

And you have not addressed the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

Clare73 said:

Misunderstanding of the Biblical use of a word becomes misunderstanding of the text.

Apostasy - a defection, revolt; used in the NT of defection from religion/faith

Acts 21:21 - to forsake ("teaching to defect from Moses")
2 Thessalonians 2:3 - the falling away (from the faith, not from condemnation)

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Could also be the falling away from sound doctrine, as is the way "pistis" is used in Jude 1:3?

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 1:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3

Mark Quayle said:

The Elect are not apostate, in the end. Their salvation is secure. They MUST, therefore, persevere. If they do not, they are not saved after all.

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That sounds contradictory.
Why MUST the elect persevere if their salvation is secure? If their salvation is dependent on perseverance, then it is not secure, it is in fact in peril.

Sounds like a slippery slope to me. To fail to persevere = damnation. What's the point of the atonement if it is dependent on us? Seems like such a waste of the only-begotten. What was the point?

Saint Steven said:

That would be like saying you should NEVER travel by air, because someone in the past died in plane crash. I think driving a car probably has a higher likelihood of a fatal crash.

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Mark Quayle said:

See now, there it is --again we find someone agreeing with us at every point, jet somehow an opposite conclusion.

The Elect are not apostate, in the end. Their salvation is secure. They MUST, therefore, persevere. If they do not, they are not saved after all.

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I do not agree with eternal security (Calvinism) on any point.

Those who become Christians, the elect, and faithfully remain a Christian unto death are not apostates. Yet those who cast aside their faith, falling away from Christ do become apostates. The terms apostate and fall have to do with a change of position. If it were impossible for a person to fall, apostatize then these terms are meaningless.

Clare73 said:

"Previous standing" being "standing" as a Christian.

I can have "standing" as a hairdresser, only to discover I've never been to beauty school.
It happens all the time.

Misunderstanding of the Biblical use of a word becomes misunderstanding of the text.

Apostasy - a defection, revolt; used in the NT of defection from religion/faith

Acts 21:21 - to forsake ("teaching to defect from Moses")

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - the falling away (from the faith, not from condemnation)

And you have not addressed the following:

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize.

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You are working hard to misundertand what the terms fall and apostasy mean for they obviously go against OSAS. Again, you yourself have used 'defection' and 'revolt' as definitions of apostasy. If one was never really saved, never really a Christian, how then can one defect, revolt from what he never was? He cannot.

"If a person quit smoking then his quitting proves he never really smoked". This statement is not logical for one cannot quit what they never started. The "never really saved" has always been a bad, illogical excuse offered up in an arrempt to get around the Bible verses that clearly show men can fall away, become apostates.

John 6 the ones that God gives to Christ are the ones who conditionally believe (John 6:35) and as long as they continue to believe they may have everlasting life John 6:40. Meaning if they quit believing then they may not have everlasting life. Judas was one who believed that God gave to Jesus and Jesus kept, John 17:6-8) but Judas quit believing becoming lost (John 17:12). But those who believe and continue to believe Christ shall not lose one of them.

Rachel20 said:

Could also be the falling away from sound doctrine, as is the way "pistis" is used in Jude 1:3?

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 1:3

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2 Timothy 4:3

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Can one fall from sound doctrine if he never had sound doctrine? Can one fall due to unbelief if he was always in unbelief, can one depart from God if he was never really of God, Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:11? Can one defect from Christianity if he was never really a Christian?

Butterball1 said:

Yes, they were once in "ownership" but became lost.

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I don't think the passage means "lost" in the sense of salvation. Only that they had lost their way. In every case the owner found them and returned them to their rightful place of ownership. The shepherd's sheep, the woman's coin and the father's son.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Perhaps from a Damnationist perspective. It could just as easily be viewed from a UR perspective.

The sheep already belonged to the Shepard. The coin already belonged to the woman. The son already belonged to the Father.

Did the son lose his sonship? Only in his own eyes. (no longer worthy to be called your son) The father would have NONE of that. Bring the ring and robe.

Even as it turned out for the sheep. Everything was in sheep-shape. - lol

Saint Steven said:

I don't agree with anything in your post. Not about us; never was.
We seem to be at an impasse. - lol

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Nowhere does the Bible ever teach salvation is UNconditional. Conditions (as faith) must be met in order to receive the promise of everlasting life and conditions must continued to be met in order to keep on possessing that promise. Really simple to understand.

Even Charles Stanley who falsely teaches OSAS understood this simple concept yet not able to reason his problem away:

"Charles Stanley is not unaware of the weakness of his argument.He raises this question: “If our salvation is gained through believing in Christ, doesn’t it make sense that salvation would be lost if we quit believing?” (p. 73).

He concedes that such arguments sound “convincing,” but he believes he has a solution to the problem, and he spends several chapters in his book struggling with it.

As suggested in our discussion of John 3:18 (above), the promise of security is conditioned upon our sustained belief. The present tense form pisteuo (believe) is found several times in John’s Gospel within this type of context (cf. 3:14-16,18; 5:24; 6:29; 6:40).

Now what is the significance of the present tense in Greek? Dana & Mantey (two Baptist scholars) note that the “principle tense” for representing “action as continuous” is the present tense (A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, New York: Macmillan, 1968, p. 178). A.T. Robertson, the greatest Baptist grammarian ever, wrote: “the present tense expresses incompleted action” (A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament, New York: Hodder & Stoughton, 1908, p. 140).

Quotations of this nature could be multiplied many times over.
I introduce this matter to emphasize that it is incredible that Mr. Stanley, in attempting to avoid the force of the present tense, should say: “The normal use of the present tense does not denote continuous, uninterrupted action” (p. 85)."
Wayne Jackson -
Can a Christian Ever Be Lost?

Butterball1 said:

Nowhere does the Bible ever teach salvation is UNconditional.

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Define agape' love. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:

Define agape' love. Thanks.

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It would be considered the highest form of love, to have concern for the well being of another person, to be willing to die for another.

Butterball1 said:

Nowhere does the Bible ever teach salvation is UNconditional. Conditions (as faith) must be met in order to receive the promise of everlasting life and conditions must continued to be met in order to keep on possessing that promise. Really simple to understand. ...

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I understand that. I just don't agree with it. Can we every really measure up? What is the point of the atonement if we can? The penalty of death is paid on our behalf, not earned by our own doing.

I'm a human being, not a human doing.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.