How do you : "Fall from Grace"

Danthemailman · Mar 22, 2021

Ben johnson said:
Dan, I accept you as a saved brother -- and if I get stuck with the likes of you as family forever with Jesus, that will be a complete joy. YOU are "the treasure I can take with me."

Ditto.

"License-to-sin" is OSAS #1, as I said thankfully most do not hold this; it's easy to refute. But others have been heard to say, "Well he was backslidden but SAVED" (for instance the Prodigal Son), and that is Antinomianism.

In regards to the prodigal son, all three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (Luke 15:22) Eternal IN-securists will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually. I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).

Please see 1Pet1:4-5 --- the inheritance is imperishable and will not fade away, it is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH" -- which way does that faith flow? RT's say "faith is a unilateral gift FROM God TO His elect/favorites", but Scripture says faith to salvation flows from us to God. You'll have to go to Greek on Rom1:17, the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith. See A.T.Robertson, "from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal". How was Eve deceived to turn away from God?

Why does Paul say we are at the same risk of deception away from God, as Eve experienced? 2Cor11:3!

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. Those who are permanently deceived away from God demonstrate a spurious faith.

I think (hope!) that eventually you will be persuaded by the preponderance of "don't-fall-away" verses you're being given. Did you see the comment on all of Hebrews?

Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Whatchyer' missing, is Luke8:18, "take care how you LISTEN" -- that is an imperative to be LIKE "fruitfully-growing-seed-on-good-soil, don't be LIKE seed-on-bad-soil"! In no way can verse 18 fit "God decides it" -- why then would it matter whether or not we take care how we listen? I'm sorry, if it's the GROUND that determines how the seed grows, then we have to mark out Lk8:18, and we have to charge GOD with making soil "good" or "bad". Only He could have done it! And that is the same offense that made Jesus white-hot-furious in Matt9, if God had any complicity in making people sinful, then His house is divided!

Luke 8:18 - Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him. In verse 15, we see that only the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Please see Heb6:7-8 --- ONE field is tilled, it can produce EITHER good fruit (and be blessed) or thorns/thistles and be cursed/burned. Why is that, Dan? Who decides? The answer is in verses 11-12 --- we need diligence to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that we not be sluggish but imitators of those WHO by faith and patience inherit the promises. Can anyone deny what Heb6 is teaching? (In context with verses 4-6, if a truly born-again person, METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit, and that person is then falling away, it is adunatos-impossible/powerless to restore him to repentance BECAUSE of his willful apostasy!

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39).

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

Continued..

Danthemailman · Mar 22, 2021

Ben johnson said:
Please read the entire letter of Galatians -- "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), "running well and obeying the truth" (5:7), "KNOWN by God" (4:9), in no way can be considered "were never truly saved". But then such a person begun in the Spirit, is he now ending in the flesh? (3:3) Running well, who hindered him from obeying the truth? (5:7) "You were KNOWN by God, how is it that you are turning BACK to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again?" (4:9) Those who are seeking to (again) be justified by law, are severed from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE. Is there any way to stamp any of that with, "NOT REALLY"? Not meaning to offend you...

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

In context, "he-who-overcomes". He who does NOT overcome, will still waltz through th' pearly gates? Does that sound credible?

*1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

What about Rev2? "You have left your first love; remember from where you have FALLEN, repent and do the deeds you did at first, or I will remove your lampstand from its place."

The removal of the lampstand from it's place is figurative language. This does not mean that individuals at the church of Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus is a city which had become overtaken by Islam. The light of the church had indeed been removed there.

Can one depart from faith he never had?

One can depart from a profession of faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

What is your understanding of James5:19-20?

Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

Ahhh, so they are "not REALLY saved in the FIRST place". I look forward to your thoughts on Hebrews; especially verses like 6:4-6 -- can one "photizo-enlightened", who has "tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (remember geuomai-taste is also in Heb2:9, Jesus "tasted death" -- that was real!); and they were "made metochos-partakers-PARTNERS of the Spirit" --- metochos appears four times, 3:1 "partners in a heavenly calling", 3:14 "partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (in immediate context with "take care BRETHREN lest you ...be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God"); Metochos also is in 12:7, "you WERE partners in His discipline but if you are now without it you are (no longer) sons but illegitimate!"

In regards to once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

I already previously explained mtochos-partners of the Spirit. In regards to Hebrews 3:14, for we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God may begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. So just because the letter of Hebrews is addressed to 'BRETHREN' does not mean that EVERYONE in this group of professing believers is a genuine believer, as demonstrated below.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

As I just posted, nothing in 1Jn2:19 forbids such a person who "was not of us when they went out", to have been saved even yesterday.

There is no implication whatsoever that those who went out from us were ever of us.

1Jn2:26-28 is yet another warning to "abide in salvation" (so that we not shrink-in-shame-from-sin when He returns).

Make believers (like Judas Iscariot) who failed to abide yet was never saved will shrink in shame.

And 2Jn1:7-9 speaks of some who absolutely can go out from us and not abide in the teachings, so as to no longer have Christ and God!

The words "no longer" (that is eisegesis) are not found here. Verse 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. (descriptive of unbelievers) He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (descriptive of believers)

I'm excited about your thoughts on Lk8:18, "take care how you listen", and Heb6:7-12 where we're admonished to be diligent to produce good fruit and to inherit the promises. What are your thoughts on these? Do you see enough momentum yet to turn you away from "Sovereign-predestined-salvation"? And no Calvinist can know that for sure, until the last second before dying. Can he?

Excited about possibly tripping me up perhaps and winning your argument?

People love to say, "I'm right and you're wrong." Not sure why you keep talking to me like I'm a 5 point Calvinist, which I am not. Good conversation. I hope that you take the time to consider what I shared with you.

JLB777 · Mar 22, 2021

Danthemailman said:
I believe what scripture says over what false teachers say, which typically culminates in “type 2 works salvation” and self preservation over God’s preservation.

The exhortation and promise to abide in no way negates that genuine believers will abide in Him. To abide in Christ is to remain in Him, which is not a temporary, superficial attachment, but a permanent connection. Such authentic abiding in Jesus characterizes true conversion.

In regards to 1 Timothy 4:1 and 1 Timothy 4:16, see post #252.

Show me the specific words, “no longer have Christ” in scripture. We must not resort to eisegesis when interpreting scripture. In regards to 2 John 9 - Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. (descriptive of unbelievers) He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (descriptive of believers)

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

We are saved by grace through faith.

Once we are regenerated and are in Christ, we must obey Him as our Lord to remain “in Him”.

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

The only other alternative is to believe we remain in Christ by obeying the devil.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

If you find it difficult to obey our Lord, then you might want to get a spiritual “check up”.

Those who claim to have eternal life, to “know Him”, yet do not keep His commandments, are deceived.

John says it this way —

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

JLB

JLB777 · Mar 22, 2021

Ben johnson said:
JLB, while that is true, remember that a Calvinist has no interest in reconsidering his doctrine as long as any of the "sixty-one-plus-verses-in-support", remain in his arms. We have to address absolutely all of the verses, empty his arms, only then MIGHT (no guarantee) he/she reconsider the doctrine.

Begin with 1Cor2:14 -- a natural/unregenerated man cannot believe, spiritual things including the Gospel are foolishness unless and until God zaps his heart with regeneration and then he (irresistibly) believes and is saved. Problem is that there is one subject in verses 9-15 --- "things, them, thoughts-of-God, things, things, things, things". And in verse 12 those very "things", are taught by the RECEIVED Spirit --- and no unbelieving unrepentant sin-entrenched person lambano-receives the Spirit; it is after belief (Acts11:15-17), it is part of salvation, the "things" are the DEEPER spiritual understandings given to believers. This is rock-solid and absolute, 1Cor2:14 can never be used again for "Sovereign-Predestined-Salvation".

Then 2Cor4:3-4, the Calvinistic view ("God has to remove the veil and ONLY THEN can a person turn to God and be saved") --- is ruined by 2Cor3:16, a person turns to God (first!) and THEN the veil over his eyes is removed. Then Acts13:48 -- A.T.Robertson, expert on Koine Greek, affirms "the Gentiles RANGED THEMSELVES on God's side", undeniably pluperfect-past-passive, they positioned THEMSELVES, it does NOT say "God sovereignly ordains them." And Acts13:43 and 13:50 ("many devout/worshiping women ...were being incited to stand against Paul") uses "sebo" (worhiping!) shows a clearly God-loving person can be corrupted; it's the same "sebo" in another Calvinistic Secondary, Acts16:14-15 ("Lydia was a WORHIPER of God AND [through her love of God!] her heart was opened to Jesus") is removed from their doctrine. Lydia embodied Jesus' words in Jn8:42, "if God was your Father then you would love Me", gone is the Calvinistic claim "God sovereignly opened the heart of a degenerate reprobate and THEN she believed in God and Jesus". No, she accepted Jesus BECAUSE she believed and loved God. One by one all the verses thought to promote Reformed Theology, are removed. And then perhaps they'll be open to verses like Acts17:26-31, absolutely everyone is offered salvation, every last person can seek Him and can find Him, He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent, Jesus' resurrection is proof to all men (simply doesn't work to try to repaint it "only-some-of-all-types"). Same in Rom5:17-19, salvation is available to exactly the same number as to whom came condemnation.

It takes infinite patience, love and respect, gently leading them to verses that they cannot refuse; until their arms are empty from the "Calvinistic-proof-texts", and they're forced to realize the truth --- "God is love" (1Jn4:16), and "love cannot demand its own way" (1Cor13:5), which God would be doing if He monergistically elected and new-hearted people.
Very good; can one fall away from faith he's never had (see James5:19-20), or be led back to where he never was?

No.

Excellent again; now pair that with Heb10:26-29, and don't forget 10:36, identical to 6:11-12, and there is no choice but to admit we are admonished to be diligent to remain in salvation. See Heb4:11, "do not fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience (and unbelief)".

That's exactly right, 2Jn1:7-9 --- there is no subject change, watch what we have learned BECAUSE anyone who does not remain in His teachings (no longer) has God; only he who remains has the Father and the Son. This is the answer to another "Secondary", 1Jn2:19 --- thought to promote "whoever goes out from us was NEVER of us" -- it does not say "never", they are not of us WHEN they go out; they could well have been saved even yesterday.

Please see 1Jn2:26-28, warning against "those who are trying to deceive us" --- we are warned to abide in Him SO THAT we not shrink in shame when He returns, because being found in sin rather than in Him, cannot "still be saved".

Scripture is replete with warnings "do not fall from salvation". See Col2:6-8! What could the SECOND meaning be?

Behind all of this, is the question --- "What is salvation"? So many people hold SUPERMARKET SPIRITUALITY. They go to the store, put Jesus in their shopping cart, maybe the Father and the Spirit, and go check out. They get into their cars, buckle up and start the car and drive down their roads-of-life; Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit all neatly wrapped and packaged and sitting on the passenger seat, always ready to help if ever needed. And that completely misses the point!

Gal2:20: "I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me, and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in He who loved me and died for me."

"If anyone be in Christ he is a new creation; the old is passed away, all has become new." 2Cor5:17

If Jesus is not driving the car, then we are in the wrong seat. Yes we still have to "move our feet", but if we commit our ways to Him, He directs our steps (Prov16:1-9, verses 4 and 9 are two of the Secondaries).

And we can miss that "being new creations", requires us to DAILY lay aside the old sinful man, and put on the new spiritual (Eph4:22-24, Col3:1-11 (really the whole chapter)). Not that we work to be saved, but it is as Romans6-8 admonishes, while we are "born/begotten from above" (chapter 6), we do have a war between the old sinful man and the new spiritual one (chapter 7), so we are required to CONSTANTLY walk in the Spirit and use His power to overcome our flesh (chapter 8!).

Abide in Him -- do not fight sin, you will lose; fill your hearts so full of Him that your sins are already defeated, two thousand years ago from His Cross.

That's the whole secret to Christianity.

Amen.

Being filled with His Spirit is the key.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

JLB

Danthemailman · Mar 22, 2021

JLB777 said:
We are saved by grace through faith.

Keep going - and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Once we are regenerated and are in Christ, we must obey Him as our Lord to remain “in Him”.

Must or will? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. So how much obedience does it take to remain in Him? Are you trusting in Jesus Christ from beginning to end as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or are you also trusting in your best efforts to be obedient/works? It sounds to me like you teach that we are "initially" saved through faith, then after that it's all about works -- "type 2 works salvation."

Here’s how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

To "keep" (Greek word "tereo" is to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments and is the demonstrative evidence that we do abide in Him. By saying we keep His commandments in order to remain in Christ is "type 2 works salvation."

The only other alternative is to believe we remain in Christ by obeying the devil.

Straw man argument.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Don't confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

If you find it difficult to obey our Lord, then you might want to get a spiritual “check up”.

Those who trust in works for salvation "in addition" to trusting in Christ for salvation need to a check up by testing themselves.. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Those who claim to have eternal life, to “know Him”, yet do not keep His commandments, are deceived. John says it this way —

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Brightfame52 · Mar 22, 2021

The Saints are preserved forever Ps 37:28

28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

JLB777 · Mar 22, 2021

Danthemailman said:
Keep going - and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Must or will? Obedience is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. So how much obedience does it take to remain in Him? Are you trusting in Jesus Christ from beginning to end as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or are you also trusting in your best efforts to be obedient/works? It sounds to me like you teach that we are "initially" saved through faith, then after that it's all about works -- "type 2 works salvation."

To "keep" (Greek word "tereo" is to guard, observe, watch over) His commandments and is the demonstrative evidence that we do abide in Him. By saying we keep His commandments in order to remain in Christ is "type 2 works salvation."

Straw man argument.

Don't confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

Those who trust in works for salvation "in addition" to trusting in Christ for salvation need to a check up by testing themselves.. (2 Corinthians 13:5)

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Those who remain saved, by remaining in Christ, are those who obey Him.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

These words will never change.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

JLB

Danthemailman · Mar 23, 2021

JLB777 said:
Those who remain saved, by remaining in Christ, are those who obey Him.

Here is how we are instructed to remain in Christ.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

These words will never change.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

JLB

You continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is "type 2 works salvation." Keeping His commandments is not how we remain in Christ, but is descriptive of those who do remain in Christ.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament - Hence, those who do not abide and are cast out.

Further 'descriptive' language. 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

JLB777 · Mar 23, 2021

Danthemailman said:
You continue to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is "type 2 works salvation." Keeping His commandments is not how we remain in Christ, but is descriptive of those who do remain in Christ.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament - Hence, those who do not abide and are cast out.

Further 'descriptive' language. 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

These words of Jesus Christ are the truth.

Twisting His words, and using an unbiblical phrases to attempt to cover up your unbiblical doctrine, simply won’t work.

The light of truth exposes your false doctrine for what it is; a doctrine of demons, designed to cause Gods’s people to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

His sheep who become lost are as sinners in need of repentance, or their will remain lost.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Do the lost need salvation?

Those who wander away, must repent just as they did when they first became saved, or their soul will be lost unto death.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Read the Bible and believe what it teaches. Turn away from promoting false doctrine, as you are leading others astray.

JLB

Danthemailman · Mar 24, 2021

JLB777 said:
These words of Jesus Christ are the truth.

Of course these words of Jesus Christ are the truth.

Twisting His words, and using an unbiblical phrases to attempt to cover up your unbiblical doctrine, simply won’t work.

Pot calling the kettle black.

The light of truth exposes your false doctrine for what it is; a doctrine of demons, designed to cause Gods’s people to depart from the faith.

There is no need for slander.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods (that sounds familiar) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Of course you assume that "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

His sheep who become lost are as sinners in need of repentance, or their will remain lost.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Do the lost need salvation?

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a Christian lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

You try to make this parable teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again, but to no avail. You conveniently forget what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again.

Those who wander away, must repent just as they did when they first became saved, or their soul will be lost unto death.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death."Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

Read the Bible and believe what it teaches. Turn away from promoting false doctrine, as you are leading others astray.

Oh the irony. You need to stop promoting the false doctrine of "type 2 works salvation."

Ben johnson · Mar 25, 2021

JLB777 said:
These words of Jesus Christ are the truth.

Twisting His words, and using an unbiblical phrases to attempt to cover up your unbiblical doctrine, simply won’t work.

The light of truth exposes your false doctrine for what it is; a doctrine of demons, designed to cause God’s people to depart from the faith.

JLB, I can see your heart, your enthusiasm for God and Scriptural truth. I would gently encourage you to soften your words, that we all embody Eph4:15, "Speak the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into ...Jesus." A liberal environmentalist at my nephew's cub scout camp said something that was exactly right -- "If you anger your audience, you lose them; and whatever you were trying to convey you will close them to." I read somewhere that a soft answer turns away wrath.

Why is everyone here? To "earnestly contend for the faith", as each person understands it. Everyone here ("Brightfame", Dan, everyone), sincerely desires to pursue God on His terms, and to engage Scripture as the writers intended. In truth, when two people converse here, each acts as though a THIRD PERSON participates; Jesus, through what the Apostles wrote. If we (gently and correctly) promote the verses showing how they fit together, then we can embody Titus1:9 "to exhort with sound doctrine and refute those who contradict" -- so that it is never one person's opinion, but rather Scripture that wins. And in all of that, we must never forget our words are supposed to mature brothers closer to Jesus, to heal and never hurt. Whatever anyone else believes is between them and God. He inspired Scripture how He wanted it (2Tim3:16); there is one Savior and we aren't Him -- if we succeed in "correctly dividing the Word", then Jesus is honored, and we grow closer to each other and to Him. That is the goal.
:hug:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Hebrews is terrible to all three OSAS views; ten verses after what you just cited (connecting to 3:18-19), the writer says: "Let us be diligent to enter (God's) rest, that none will fall by imitating (Israel's) disobedience (and unbelief)."

How many possible meanings can that have? And the rest of the letter gets worse and worse for OSAS...

His sheep who become lost are as sinners in need of repentance, or they will remain lost.

Scripture does support you:

"Behold then the kindness and severity of God -- to those who fell severity, but to you God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness otherwise you also will be cut off. And they too, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in again..." Rom11:18-23

What is the second possible meaning for that? OSAS advocates unwittingly operate with a "NOT REALLY" stamp, reading clear verses and stamping them with some way to make them mean something different than they say. (1Tim2:4 for instance, "Oh it does not really mean all men, it means only some of all TYPES." No, it means all, kings-and-all-authority. Everyone is desired to repent. Acts17:26-31.)

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Luke 15:4-7

In context, the "Prodigal Son", was for a time NOT a son -- he was a corpse! "Alive again", means in the middle he was dead; can this teach anything other than "turning away from salvation and then returning"? Doesn't it say the same as we just read in Rom11?

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Do the lost need salvation?

Those who wander away, must repent just as they did when they first became saved, or their soul will be lost unto death.

Have you ever read John Chrysostom on 2Cor? I should copy it here!

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

Click to expand...

, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

Read the Bible and believe what it teaches. Turn away from promoting false doctrine, as you are leading others astray.

Again, words like this close others, and ends communication; if we can correctly divide the Word", showing what the Apostles taught and how it all fits together, it won't be US who convinces them, but the Apostles.

Ben johnson · Mar 26, 2021

Danthemailman said:
Ditto.

Dan, I know you will embrace what I just said to JLB. You spent considerable time on me; no two people in the world agree on everything, but I acknowledge the time you spent -- and I recognize the blessing that you are to me.

In regards to the prodigal son, all three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (Luke 15:22) Eternal IN-securists will try to use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that believers can lose their salvation by arguing that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

"Alive again", as I understand, in Greek can mean "has begun to live". But the question is whether a truly "born-again/begotten child of God", can become un-adopted? How can Heb12:7-9 teach anything else? King James best renders the conditional, "If we submit to God's discipline, then He treats us as sons; for what son is not disciplined by his father? But if we are without discipline (present tense), of which all have become metochos-partners (past tense), then we are not sons (even though we had to have been), but are illegitimate. Shall we not much rather continue in submission to the Father of spirits, and live?"

That from memory, sorry I was lazy and didn't actually look the verse up. The words in parentheses are not there, but are they not implied? If so then it is not as you suggested "eisegesis", but "exegesis". Read on in Hebrews12 -- verse 15 warns that bitterness can make us fall short of God's grace, and verse 25 "much less shall WE escape who turn away from God". Is there a second possible meaning?

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).

The sheep was lost, the coin was lost; sheeps and coins lack the ability to return themselves -- but the Prodigal sure did "come to his senses and return". While he was in the far land, he was drunk, carousing, fornicating -- shall we perceive he reflected a STILL SAVED person? I really hope we can't! The only alternative is to try to paint him as "twarn't-never-saved-in-th'-first-place", and that denies that he was in his father's house at first.

What do you think of Rom11:18-23 (even though I only quoted part)?

We are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation.

Wait -- which direction does that faith flow? Does God PUT that faith in a FEW? Or does God command that faith FROM us?

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. Those who are permanently deceived away from God demonstrate a spurious faith.

Exactly what do you think "THAT" refers to in Eph2:8?

"For by grace through faith have you been saved, and THAT FAITH is not of yourselves, that faith is the sovereign unilateral monergistic gift from God!"

Is that how you read it?

Those who permanently fall away demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

You used the word "eisegesis" in another post; can you find any verse that says "ALL who fall away were never REALLY there in the FIRST place"? It's not 1Jn2:19 (especially when verses 26-28 warn us against falling from salvation), and 2Jn1:7-9 talks about those WERE with us but LEAVE.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Okay -- now, what are your supporting verses?

Luke 8:18 - Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

In Matt13 parable explanations are given to those who HAVE. Have what? It's the same as 1Cor2:14 -- those who have salvation, receive (are taught!) the deeper spiritual things like parable explanations. Dan, unsaved people have nothing! "Those who have", cannot refer to reprobates!

In verse 15, we see that only the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles.

The context very plainly warns us to have diligence so that we ...inherit the promises.

What about Heb6:4-6? Is there any way that "photizo-enlightened, tasters of the good word of God and powers of the age to come, metochos-PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", were never truly saved?

Please read Heb2:9, "Jesus tasted death". Some say that those in 6:4-6 only tasted spiritual things but did not participate -- we cannot deny that Jesus really died (geuomai-tasted-death 2:9), can we make the exact same words mean "not-really-participate" in chapter 6? "Metochos" occurs four times; 3:1, 3:14, 6:4, 12:8 -- all four times really mean "saved". What possible OSAS understanding can there be of Hebrews chapter six? I can't see one!

We read in scripture that good fruit is a sign of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that the writer of Hebrews is talking about people who are not genuine believers.

No, these are warnings -- see 2Cor13:5, "test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith" (and adokimos-castaway is plainly in view); we examine ourselves by our works!

I'd love to discuss 2Peter, especially chapter 1 (though the entire letter is "don't-fall-from-salvation"!). We are to measure ourselves by our fruits, we are warned "against the man who WAS PURIFIED from former sins (had to have been saved!) but now LACKS them (no way he is still), be all the more diligent to make your calling and election bebaios-steadfast -- as long as these fruits are ours, we are useful and will not become ptaios-wretched! In THIS way the gates ...will be provided to us!"

Any way to make that "oh-you-can't-fall"? The man in 2Pet1:9 sure did fall!

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION.

Positive encouragement, in the face of clearly talking about falling away (you left out "though-we-are-speaking-this-way!"). It's the same encouragement as in 10:39; do you think 10:26-39 permits OSAS?

Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

I look forward to your thoughts on Heb6:4-6; they were truly saved, but "were falling away" -- aorist active participle. Fact.

In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking.

I'm only aware of Metochos used four times; all four are "saved". Heb3:1 & 14, 6:4, and 12:8.

These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive..

Meaning no offense (don'tchya' hate sentences that start like that?) -- if we cling to "a-priori" understandings, we might unconsciously stamp verses with "NOT REALLY". What if Hebrews 6 really means what it says, as cited above?

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there.

See? "Tasted but NOT REALLY participated" -- but then the exact same word "geuomai-taste" in Heb2:9 teaches Jesus did not really DIE.

Yes, He did.

People who have experienced these positive factors may be genuine Christians, yet these factors alone are not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of the Christian life (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet some draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth and do not believe to the saving of the soul, as we see in (Hebrews 10:39).

Verses 10:26-29 -- if WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth --- what is the Greek for "knoweldge"? Doesn't this suggest 2Pet2:20-21? (Really, start with verse 18!)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responded to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead unbelievers to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelt by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit" which is the guarantee of future inheritance. Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for your argument.

Continued..

Seems clear to me we have established real "falling-from-salvation"; I look forward to your thoughts on the cited verses.

Ben johnson · Mar 26, 2021

Danthemailman said:
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

(I haven't time for a thorough response, the previous reply should be a source of great discussion.)

There's always time to repent, as long as one is alive.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Is there any way to deny that truly "known-by-God" persons, are returning to weak worthless things to become enslaved all over again, and they are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace?

How much ink do we need for our "NOT REALLY" stamp?

*1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

The removal of the lampstand from it's place is figurative language. This does not mean that individuals at the church of Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness. Ephesus is a city which had become overtaken by Islam. The light of the church had indeed been removed there.

And you said chapter 3 "those trying to steal your crown" does not refer to the same stephanos-zoe as in James1:12. Why not? What's the context of 3:11?

One can depart from a profession of faith that was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

The context of James' whole letter opposes that. In ch1, "each is tempted when enticed and carried away by his own lusts. Then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death -- do not be deceived beloved brethren."

1. He's talking to UNSAVED BELOVED BRETHREN (seriously?)
2. It's not really SPIRITUAL death (it says "thanatos-spiritual-death!)
3. Therefore James5:20 is warning the never-truly-saved not to wander from faith-he-never-had (credible?)
4. And one is led back to where he never was, he'll be saved the FIRST time!

Any or all of those what you perceive?

Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

I look forward to your thoughts on 1Jn2:26-28.

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

Thanatos from the Lexicon means "physical death with implication of eternity in Hell". Context determines the meaning; in James 5:19-20 the psuche-soul thanatos-dead, has uncovered sins; no way it does not mean spiritual also.

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

Look at 1Cor10:12-13 (and read from verse 1) -- clearly we have a constant choice to sin, or to exploit His power and escape.

What do you think "FALL" means, in verse 12? Are there sins that are okay with God? Or does God guarantee that when we sin, we WILL repent? (Doesn't this go right back to Rom11? What's the difference between "walking-in-sin", and "walking-in-unbelief"? There isn't a difference, is there?)

So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

In regards to once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13)

Did Jesus taste death but did not PARTICIPATE? "Geuomai", Heb2:9.

I already previously explained metochos-partners of the Spirit. In regards to Hebrews 3:14, for we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been and now are partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God may begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. So just because the letter of Hebrews is addressed to 'BRETHREN' does not mean that EVERYONE in this group of professing believers is a genuine believer, as demonstrated below.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

And now I look forward to your thoughts on Heb3:18-19, connecting with Heb4:11...

There is no implication whatsoever that those who went out from us were ever of us.

Nor is there anything to forbid it! 2Jn1:7-9, there is no subject change!

Make believers (like Judas Iscariot) who failed to abide yet was never saved will shrink in shame.

Please comment on John6:67-70, if you will -- if Judas was "never-really-saved", then it makes no sense for Jesus to hold him up opposing Peter's protest "Of course we can't leave You, we know You're the Messiah!" (paraphrased)

Jesus asked if the twelve were going to leave. Peter protested they couldn't -- to which Jesus held up Judas, He chose all twelve, and one DID leave. Any other meaning possible?

The words "no longer" (that is eisegesis) are not found here. Verse 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. (descriptive of unbelievers) He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. (descriptive of believers)

No subject change -- watch yourselves that you not lose what was wrought, but that you may receive full reward. What was wrought, and what is the reward? Is there any way that "because" is not implied? "Watch yourselves, BECAUSE anyone who does not abide"?

Excited about possibly tripping me up perhaps and winning your argument? People love to say, "I'm right and you're wrong."

You and I are not pursuing "winning"; it is SCRIPTURE that wins -- it's just a question of which of us is closer to what the Apostles intended.

Not sure why you keep talking to me like I'm a 5 point Calvinist, which I am not. Good conversation. I hope that you take the time to consider what I shared with you.

Okay, TULIP:
1. Total Depravity (no it's not, it's total inability!)
2. Unconditional Election (of the favorites -- does God play favorites?)
3. Limited Atonement (Jesus didn't die for everyone--really?)
4. Irresistible Grace (Acts7:51!)
5. Perseverance of the Saints (that's what we're discussing!)

Which do you reject?

Danthemailman · Mar 26, 2021

Ben johnson said:
Dan, I know you will embrace what I just said to JLB. You spent considerable time on me; no two people in the world agree on everything, but I acknowledge the time you spent -- and I recognize the blessing that you are to me.

I appreciate your kind words.

"Alive again", as I understand, in Greek can mean "has begun to live". But the question is whether a truly "born-again/begotten child of God", can become un-adopted? How can Heb12:7-9 teach anything else? King James best renders the conditional, "If we submit to God's discipline, then He treats us as sons; for what son is not disciplined by his father? But if we are without discipline (present tense), of which all have become metochos-partners (past tense), then we are not sons (even though we had to have been), but are illegitimate. Shall we not much rather continue in submission to the Father of spirits, and live?"

I don't see the words, "un-adopted, un-born again or un-sealed" by the Holy Spirit anywhere in scripture. Your interpretation of Hebrews 12:7-9 results in eisegesis. The AMPC version sums it up in verse 8 - Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God’s children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].

That from memory, sorry I was lazy and didn't actually look the verse up. The words in parentheses are not there, but are they not implied? If so then it is not as you suggested "eisegesis", but "exegesis". Read on in Hebrews12 -- verse 15 warns that bitterness can make us fall short of God's grace, and verse 25 "much less shall WE escape who turn away from God". Is there a second possible meaning?

In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. You don't have to be a genuine believer in order to turn away from God. The Israelites were God's chosen people and God delivered them from bondage in Egypt, but not all of them were saved. Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'

The sheep was lost, the coin was lost; sheeps and coins lack the ability to return themselves -- but the Prodigal sure did "come to his senses and return". While he was in the far land, he was drunk, carousing, fornicating -- shall we perceive he reflected a STILL SAVED person? I really hope we can't! The only alternative is to try to paint him as "twarn't-never-saved-in-th'-first-place", and that denies that he was in his father's house at first.

Once again, in regards to the prodigal son, all three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." Not likely a lose your salvation lesson. Also, being made "alive AGAIN" could easily foreshadow the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. We are not born again, again and again, but only once. Finally, certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS). Regardless of which way you believe, in the end, he was alive and found.

What do you think of Rom11:18-23 (even though I only quoted part)?

I see that you are systematically looking for weaknesses. Trying to find that one verse that I can't explain and then comes the GOTCHA! Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (vs. 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious. The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Wait -- which direction does that faith flow? Does God PUT that faith in a FEW? Or does God command that faith FROM us? Exactly what do you think "THAT" refers to in Eph2:8?

"For by grace through faith have you been saved, and THAT FAITH is not of yourselves, that faith is the sovereign unilateral monergistic gift from God!"

Is that how you read it?

The AMPC sums up how I read Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.

You used the word "eisegesis" in another post; can you find any verse that says "ALL who fall away were never REALLY there in the FIRST place"? It's not 1Jn2:19 (especially when verses 26-28 warn us against falling from salvation), and 2Jn1:7-9 talks about those WERE with us but LEAVE.

1 John 2:19 is crystal clear that those who went out from us were not of us and if they had been of us then they would have continued with us. Where does 2 John 7-9 talk about those who were with us but leave? 2 John 7-9: For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. 9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. I see a contrast here between make believers and genuine believers.

Okay -- now, what are your supporting verses?

In Matt13 parable explanations are given to those who HAVE. Have what? It's the same as 1Cor2:14 -- those who have salvation, receive (are taught!) the deeper spiritual things like parable explanations. Dan, unsaved people have nothing! "Those who have", cannot refer to reprobates!

The context very plainly warns us to have diligence so that we ...inherit the promises.

More eisegesis. The natural man is an unbeliever who does not have the Holy Spirit, in CONTRAST to WE who have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God. (vs. 12)

What about Heb6:4-6? Is there any way that "photizo-enlightened, tasters of the good word of God and powers of the age to come, metochos-PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", were never truly saved?

Yes, as I already previously explained.

Please read Heb2:9, "Jesus tasted death". Some say that those in 6:4-6 only tasted spiritual things but did not participate -- we cannot deny that Jesus really died (geuomai-tasted-death 2:9), can we make the exact same words mean "not-really-participate" in chapter 6? "Metochos" occurs four times; 3:1, 3:14, 6:4, 12:8 -- all four times really mean "saved".

Once again, in regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of the quality of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." Do we merely "taste" into one Spirit or drink into one Spirit? (1 Corinthians 12:13). Jesus tasted physical death, but He did not die spiritually. As I already explained in post #267, in regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated "partaker" can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking...

What possible OSAS understanding can there be of Hebrews chapter six? I can't see one!
No, these are warnings -- see 2Cor13:5, "test yourselves, to see if you are in the faith" (and adokimos-castaway is plainly in view); we examine ourselves by our works!

I already thoroughly gave you a OSAS understanding for Hebrews 6 and ver 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. *Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18)

JLB777 · Mar 26, 2021

Ben johnson said:
Why is everyone here? To "earnestly contend for the faith", as each person understands it.

Thats’s a nice thought. I wish it were true.

JLB777 · Mar 27, 2021

Danthemailman said:
It’s becoming more and more obvious that you confuse ‘descriptive’ passages of scripture with ‘prescriptive’ passages of scripture and the end result is salvation by works. Here’s more proof below that you teach salvation by works, which is problematic and remains your achilles heel.

Maybe you could share a passage of scripture where Jesus or Paul, or Peter taught us about “descriptive” scripture or “prescriptive” scripture in the Bible.

Then you can show me where I said salvation is by works.

Those who obey Jesus Christ are given eternal salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

The way we remain “in Christ” is keeping His commandments.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

His Commandments are about love, and are not burdensome.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

Not one mention of the word “works” or “salvation by works” in my post.

JLB

Danthemailman · Mar 27, 2021

JLB777 said:
Maybe you could share a passage of scripture where Jesus or Paul, or Peter taught us about “descriptive” scripture or “prescriptive” scripture in the Bible.

You said: Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27. “They” being those who hear His voice that resulted in following Him. OBEDIENCE TO FOLLOW THE LORD’S TEACHINGS AND COMMANDMENTS RESULTS IN ETERNAL LIFE. You read John 10:27-28 as if Jesus is saying that obeying His commandments is the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation by works. Yet Jesus 'described' His sheep as hearing His voice and following Him. Jesus did not say that some of them do and some of them don't.

Then you can show me where I said salvation is by works.

I showed you multiple times and you clearly interpreted "justified by works" in James 2:24 to mean "saved by works."

Those who obey Jesus Christ are given eternal salvation.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Another 'descriptive' passage that you interpret to mean salvation by obedience/works. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel 'which is prescriptive' (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him "after" they have believed the gospel unto salvation by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness, which is 'descriptive.' (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10) In either sense, believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

The way we remain “in Christ” is keeping His commandments.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Show me the words "remain" in Christ "by" keeping His commandments. 1 John 3:24. Keeping His commandments is 'descriptive' of those who abide in Him.

His Commandments are about love, and are not burdensome.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

They are not burdensome and they are also not a legalistic prescription to obtain salvation by works.

Not one mention of the word “works” or “salvation by works” in my post.

Salvation by works is implied throughout many of your posts.

JLB777 · Mar 28, 2021

Danthemailman said:
You said: Verse 28 is the result of obeying verse 27. “They” being those who hear His voice that resulted in following Him. OBEDIENCE TO FOLLOW THE LORD’S TEACHINGS AND COMMANDMENTS RESULTS IN ETERNAL LIFE. You read John 10:27-28 as if Jesus is saying that obeying His commandments is the basis or means by which we obtain eternal life/salvation by works.

Obeying the Lord is how people who are “in Christ”, remain n Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

JLB

Danthemailman · Mar 28, 2021

JLB777 said:
Obeying the Lord is how people who are “in Christ”, remain in Him.

Which act(s) of obedience caused us to be "in Christ?" Which acts of obedience cause us to remain in Him? How much obedience does it take? This could include any number of works. How do you define "keep" His commandments? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have "sufficiently" kept His commandments and will remain in Him? This leads to works salvation.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

Do believers keep His commandments in order to abide in Him or BECAUSE we abide in Him? *Pay special attention to "by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

'Descriptive' passage of scripture. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Ben johnson · Mar 28, 2021

JLB777 said:
Obeying the Lord is how people who are “in Christ”, remain in Him.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB

That is actually the entire theme of Scripture -- "Build yourselves in faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God" Jude20-21. No one will comment on 1Jn2:26-28 --- in the face of deceivers, we are to "abide in Him SO THAT we not shrink in shame at His coming"! What can deceivers do to us to cause us to shrink-in-shame before Jesus? The first answer is obvious -- if deceivers can lure us away from Jesus and into sin (2Pet2:18!) then that would certainly cause us to shrink in shame! That would be "no longer saved". What could the second answer be?

Many deceivers have gone into the world! Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have wrought, but that you may receive full reward -- anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, has not God; he who abides, has the Father and the Son! 2Jn1:7-9

In later days many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves!" 1Tim4:1 & 16!

SEE TO it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the traditions of men and according to worldly principles, rather than according to Christ! Col2:6-8 (Repeated in 2Pet3:17!)

On and on and on, how much longer can anyone keep stamping, "NOT REALLY NOT REALLY"? Won't that awful stamp eventually wear out?

(We hope it already has worn out!)

Exactly what are deceivers after? (Rev3:11, "take care that no one will steal your crown!") Every one of these "not-really" stampings, is promoting the lie, "don't worry you will not really die." Who was it that first said that???

How do you : "Fall from Grace"

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