Does anyone have any hope of changing peoples minds about Trump?

Clare73 said:

Stay tuned. . .for something big. . .and it's not Trump.

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Please stop spamming threads with vague predictions, thanx.

Belk said:

Isn't that part of the issue though? If someone thinks something is a lie, and can demonstrate how it is untrue, but the other side is unwilling or unable to see the data and change their mind, how can we reach common ground?

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But many times the data is debatable.

rambot said:

No.
Trump IS a liar. Objective reality and fact checking exposes that.

What you choose to do with that information is 100% up to you. But in my opinion it ALSO speaks to whether you are being manipulated/gaslit.

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Of course he is. So am I, and so are you. But many of things he says that some people call "lies" are based on disputable facts. You may call them a lie based on your interpretation of the facts, but I may say it isn't based on my interpretation of the facts.

Pommer said:

A Christian and an atheist both think that they, themselves, believe “the truth”.

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Exactly. But one or the other is believing a lie.

Under One King said:

Exactly. But one or the other is believing a lie.

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Right.
It’s impossible to believe (in) a lie.

Whether or not you or I am a liar is beyond the point. There are often verifiable facts that he deliberately ignored or misrepresented, which means that he lied.

It's so strange to me that people who support Trump tend not to like a lot of gray areas in life, but prefer solid blacks and whites. Yet when it comes to Trump himself, suddenly verifiable facts are subject to interpretation.
Ringo

Pommer said:

Right.
It’s impossible to believe (in) a lie.

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It is possible to believe in a lie.

Ringo84 said:

Whether or not you or I am a liar is beyond the point. There are often verifiable facts that he deliberately ignored or misrepresented, which means that he lied.

It's so strange to me that people who support Trump tend not to like a lot of gray areas in life, but prefer solid blacks and whites. Yet when it comes to Trump himself, suddenly verifiable facts are subject to interpretation.
Ringo

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But even "verifiable" facts are subject to debate. What I believe to be verifiable, you may think is unverifiable, and vice versa.

My son wonders how prosecutors in Manhattan, Washington, D.C. and Fulton County, GA will ever be able to find an impartial jury when, in all probability, Trump is indicted for, respectively, bank, tax, and insurance fraud (NY), inciting riots and insurrection (D.C.), and election interference (Fulton County).

I know there are a certain number of preemptory strikes and a certain number for cause, but would that be enough to insure a jury that would just evaluate the evidence?

A polarizing defendant will have some jurors who will rule him guilty--no matter what, and just as many who would judge him innocent--no matter what.

He has already been impeached--twice--and Senators and Congressman, many of whom have legal backgrounds and/or advanced degrees, just vote party lines and seem so oblivious to testimony and evidence that some even wandered the halls and played with their cell phones during the trial.

Under One King said:

But even "verifiable" facts are subject to debate. What I believe to be verifiable, you may think is unverifiable, and vice versa.

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"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts".
Ringo

Ringo84 said:

"You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts".
Ringo

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Exactly.

Under One King said:

It is possible to believe in a lie.

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No.
It’s possible for another person to believe a lie, but in order to do so, for that person, it is truth.

Under One King said:

Exactly.

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Which is why we say that Trump is a liar.
Ringo

Under One King said:

Of course he is. So am I, and so are you. But many of things he says that some people call "lies" are based on disputable facts. You may call them a lie based on your interpretation of the facts, but I may say it isn't based on my interpretation of the facts.

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But again, you can't just equivocate like that. I feel incredibly confident that I didn't lie 14000times. Honestly I don't think I've even been wrong that many times.

And many things he lies about are stupid, easily disputable lies that he insists aren't lies. These are the patterns of a narcisssist. And a gaslighter.;. Telling you your eyes are lying.

Under One King said:

But many times the data is debatable.

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Data is never debatable. Only the conclusions one can draw from the data.

Under One King said:

But even "verifiable" facts are subject to debate. What I believe to be verifiable, you may think is unverifiable, and vice versa.

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You must be using a different definition of "fact" then the rest of us.

fact
/fakt/



noun
noun: fact; plural noun: facts
a thing that is known or proved to be true.

Under One King said:

But even "verifiable" facts are subject to debate. What I believe to be verifiable, you may think is unverifiable, and vice versa.

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And that's why "impartial" third parties are able to verify facts; even when it doesn't go our way.

Pommer said:

A Christian and an atheist both think that they, themselves, believe “the truth”.

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Agnostics, however, believe that the truth is unknowable.

Pommer said:

Right.
It’s impossible to believe (in) a lie.

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Why do you think that? I have believed lies before, before I knew that they were lies....is that your point?

DaisyDay said:

Agnostics, however, believe that the truth is unknowable.

Why do you think that? I have believed lies before, before I knew that they were lies....is that your point?

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Right, once one sees the lie, one cannot unsee it.
That’s why it is so hard to convince people who hold onto verifiable untruths, they’re willing themselves to “hold onto ‘the Truth’”, because we all know how it works. You can thank Santa Claus and the tooth fairy for that lesson!

Pommer said:

No.
It’s possible for another person to believe a lie, but in order to do so, for that person, it is truth.

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They might think it is truth, but that doesn't make it a truth. Anyone can believe in a lie.