God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Matthew 8:26 Jesus criticized those disciples for having "little faith". If God alone is solely responsible for men having faith then should Jesus have criticized God for failing to give these disciples sufficient faith they needed? How can man be criticizied, condemend for having little or no faith if having faith was totally, completely out of man's control and ability? It would be like condemning a person born with out legs for not walking.
God does not condemn men for natural inabilities men would be born with but instead condemns for moral abiltity and choices men are able to make. If you were born with the natural inability to believe then God could not rightly, justly condemn you for being an unbeleiver. But since you are born with the ability to believe and if you choose to not beleive then God can justly rightly condemn you for the moral choices YOU make.

I’m on your side, brother! You say it quite nicely.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I know not all verses can be taken personally. While I believe we can pray and God can do a miracle on his timing and choosing, I do not believe the miraculous gifts applies today (But I do leave room that I could be wrong so as not to condemn myself). For I do have a good case biblically for the cessation of the miraclous gifts (Although I leave room for mystery on this topic that I could be wrong). In other words, I have friends who believe in speaking in tongues. They have even spoken in tongues in front of me. I label these kinds of things as a mystery. So while my head knowledge with God's Word says one thing, I want to guard my soul and not say anything that may condemn myself just in case I am wrong. I believe the safer play is not to speak in tongues (because there are verses that do suggest such a possiblity).

Anyways, my point here is that if 1 Corinthians 2:16 does not apply to us personally today, then one should have a good reason backed up by Scripture to show why. In other words, I like to ask myself questions when I read the Bible: Am I basing my interpretaton of this verse or passage on the basis of what the Bible says or am I being motivated by a belief or my own thinking that is not clearly defined in Scripture? I believe that if we ask ourselves these questions honestly in seeking the truth, and we ask God for the understanding, God will reveal the truth to us on what He is saying.

Well, that’s a pretty nice post. Now I have to point that while you think you can made a biblical case for the cessation of miracles, I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and ran around the room. I didn’t know miracles had ceased and asked for one and received one.

Now there is another test of scripture when it comes to assuming compliments on one’s character or abilities. And that is if it’s really manifested in our thoughts, words and deeds. It’s really fooling yourself to claim one has the mind of Christ if the thoughts and attitudes one has are something that Christ would not at all recognize as matching his own.

Nathan@work · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
So you believe everyone is an offspring of God? Just curious.

Does that say he creates people personally and kills them as well?

No, not ‘offspring’. We are all created in His image though.

God created Adam and Eve. And by that the creation of humans has continued.

Do you look outside and ever marvel at Gods creations? Do you think that anything you see with your human eyes existed back when God first created the world?

Nathan@work · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Please show me where God says he controls who is “alive” and who is “dead.” I really don’t know what you mean.

Read Job 12. He says it better than I ever could.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Read Job 12. He says it better than I ever could.

Do you realize that the man speaking is the one whom God rebuked for his words right?

But please copy and paste the verse that says God kills people and determined who lives. I don’t see it there.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

Nathan@work said:
No, not ‘offspring’. We are all created in His image though.

God created Adam and Eve. And by that the creation of humans has continued.

Do you look outside and ever marvel at Gods creations? Do you think that anything you see with your human eyes existed back when God first created the world?

Nice answer. As to your questions, yes and no. No means I haven’t thought about it much, not that I don’t agree.

bling · Mar 20, 2021

Nathan@work said:
I agree. That is why I choose my words very carefully.

~Cassia~ said:
It would be nice if we were all born children of the promise and could just reap the benefits of Isaac but unfortunately time moves on and Jacob had 12 sons. Well those twelve sons are being judged by the 12 apostles and the church is now just hidden in Christ, only. Not the law or the prophets. Does make it dull beads on the outside, and pearl onions within, a person of joy and sorrow according to His way in one’s life. But believe the little things and the big things will take care of themselves.

Dorothy Mae said:
So is God responsible for who believes and who doesn’t?

Bible Highlighter said:
Why do folks have to always make it personal? The Bible is true regardless of any one person’s life. If God calls us all to suffer just as Christ also suffered than that is something we must all accept and adhere to. Besides my coming to the faith, I don’t generally share my walk with the Lord with other believers who are hostile to the core things of the faith. I make it about God and His Word and not me. For it is by God that we are able to go through the Sanctification Process.

Guojing said:
The point is that if you encounter them, you will realize that that is the truth for them, and nothing you offer as proof will convince them otherwise

MMXX said:
That's not necessary. There are verses that say to fear God. However BH said The key words “fear God” occurs 232 times in 101 verses in the KJB. That doesn't mean the Bible says to fear God 232 times in 101 verses. It means that the words "fear" and "God" appear that many times in those verses. In Deuteronomy 1:21 the word "fear" appears once and the word "God" appears twice.

Now as to what you asked at the beginning of this thread. I looked for the word "wrath". And of all the New Testament verses that have the word "wrath" in them, none of them said God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross.

Here's the search tool I used: BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Wrath

Butterball1 said:
This idea would make God culpable for those who are faithless....Matthew 8:26; Mark 4:40. Why are men commanded to have believe (example Acts of the Apostles 16:31) if man cannot possibly choose to believe of his own will?

There is a lot to address but think about this:
The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

Are we in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

If it is not a kidnapping then it is no “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints”.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom, since we sure do not want to blame ourselves?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else. NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered to all kidnappers?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

bling said:
There is a lot to address but think about this:
The Bible refers to Jesus’ sacrifice as a literal ransom:

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time

Heb. 9: 15…now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

We do have the blood specifically mentioned in Revelation 5:9 They sing a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God saints from every tribe and language and people and nation;

Atonement is a huge misunderstood topic which all the theories do a poor job explaining, look at just one aspect they do not address:

Are we in agreement:

1. Jesus life is the unbelievable huge ransom payment?

2. The ransom payment was made to set children free to go to the Kingdom and be with the Father?

3. Deity (Jesus and God both) made this unbelievable huge payment?

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

5. The scripture is not describing Jesus’ cruel torturous death on the cross as being like a ransom payment, but as being a ransom payment?

6. This was all done for “many” and “God’s saints” in some way and in other ways for “all” people?

You may have a problem with “6”, but I am just quoting scripture.

If it is not a kidnapping then it is no “ransoming”, but the Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints”.

Peter even help us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,

A kidnapper holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom, since we sure do not want to blame ourselves?

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, or something else. NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered to all kidnappers?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment?

Would the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God describe a kidnapper?

“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?

I think the choice of “ransom” is a metaphor. I think trying to apply a metaphor to every detail generates difficulty.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 20, 2021

4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

I’d take it further and apply it to OT history. The ransom was a product from Lot’s day, not when Abraham rescued him, whilst meeting Melchezedec, but when the angels rescued him from Sodom. Fast forward thru the book of Ruth and the kinsman redeemer appeared.

That’s as far as I got in reading the list.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Well, that’s a pretty nice post. Now I have to point that while you think you can made a biblical case for the cessation of miracles, I prayed for a lame woman and she got up and ran around the room. I didn’t know miracles had ceased and asked for one and received one.

As I said before, I am not discounting miracles that can occur by praying, but that is up to God's timing and choosing if He will answer such a prayer. I was talking about the miraculous gifts that certain apostles had in the early church. If somebody had the gift of healing, they could always heal 100% of the time and no prayer was needed.

You said:
Now there is another test of scripture when it comes to assuming compliments on one’s character or abilities. And that is if it’s really manifested in our thoughts, words and deeds. It’s really fooling yourself to claim one has the mind of Christ if the thoughts and attitudes one has are something that Christ would not at all recognize as matching his own.

Then why would Paul say what he did in 1 Corinthians 2:16? It's like your cherry picking the Bible and not wanting to believe what he said because it is a truth you simply do not like or a truth you don't think is possible. Why don't you pray for a miracle like you did before with that person who was lame? Pray so that 1 Corinthians 2:16 comes true for your life. For with God all things are possible, right?

bling · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I think the choice of “ransom” is a metaphor. I think trying to apply a metaphor to every detail generates difficulty.

I see know real problem,but it only expalins one aspect of atonement.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
4. All these fit perfectly a ransom scenario?

I’d take it further and apply it to OT history. The ransom was a product from Lot’s day, not when Abraham rescued him, whilst meeting Melchezedec, but when the angels rescued him from Sodom. Fast forward thru the book of Ruth and the kinsman redeemer appeared.

That’s as far as I got in reading the list.

Well Abraham rescued Lot. No ransom was paid. Ruth was redeemed but not randsomed. I don’t see a randsom there.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

bling said:
I see know real problem,but it only expalins one aspect of atonement.

The atonement is difficult to explain.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
As I said before, I am not discounting miracles that can occur by praying, but that is up to God's timing and choosing if He will answer such a prayer. I was talking about the miraculous gifts that certain apostles had in the early church. If somebody had the gift of healing, they could always heal 100% of the time and no prayer was needed.

Jesus had the gift of healing and couldn’t heal sometimes. But prayer is always needed as we don’t heal. He does. We just ask.

Then why would Paul say what he did in 1 Corinthians 2:16? It's like your cherry picking the Bible and not wanting to believe what he said because it is a truth you simply do not like or a truth you don't think is possible.

No it’s not. If Paul writes a compliment to some believers it doesn’t mean that describes you personally. That, my friend, is cherry picking. But do you likewise assume the uncomplimentary descriptions are speaking of you personally too?

Why don't you pray for a miracle like you did before with that person who was lame? Pray so that 1 Corinthians 2:16 comes true for your life. For with God all things are possible, right?

If I may be so bold, it doesn’t look like you’ve seen many miracles. I don’t pray for miracles so I experience them. It doesn’t work that way. But I’ve seen a fair share of miracles. They always made a life better, but Some didn’t affect my life at all.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Well Abraham rescued Lot. No ransom was paid. Ruth was redeemed but not randsomed. I don’t see a randsom there.

The kinsman redeemer came thru a Moabite.

The pattern of the pillar is seen clearest there.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 20, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
The kinsman redeemer came thru a Moabite.

The pattern of the pillar is seen clearest there.

Yes, but no ransom. Redeemer? Yes. Ransom? no

Metaphors help us understand some aspects. Not all aspects of the metaphor can be applied though.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Yes, but no ransom. Redeemer? Yes. Ransom? no

Kinsman means He came in the flesh to redeem. The first occurrence is found in
Exodus 6:6 (edit to correct scripture reference)
Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

Every mention of ransom is that of firstlings being redeemed by a lamb.
Ransom in the Bible (46 instances)

If we put a lamb given for the first fruits associated with atonement by one who was a human then I think we can get a picture of the elementary process by which a more mature way of putting it would be , the wave offering accepted, applied by the blood, to the effect of cleaning the conscience of dead works to liberate one to follow closely that which leads directly to the Father.

Ceallaigh · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
No master’s degree tells a man what everyone else believes. He is totally wrong.

It is something that has been taught in a lot of denominations. At least the ones here in the US and Canada.

Dorothy Mae said:
Since we still sin it’s hard to see how he took our sin away. Seems like we still got it.

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

"And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." 1 John 3:5

Ceallaigh · Mar 20, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I have countlessly said many times about mortal sin or serious sin and have made this fact clear many times to you and other people.

Based on objections you've received, you don't make it clear enough. Your trademark "sin and still be saved" line you deliver the most being the primary example. It clearly sounds like you're saying a Christian has to be completely free of sin to be saved. Which is what is being objected to. This has been pointed out numerus times to you, but it's like talking to a brick wall. You insist on sticking with your misconception that they're objecting because "they want to sin and still be saved".

Bible Highlighter said:
As for a single thought condeming a person (unless they repent):

Well, a lustful thought (a single thought) towards a woman is a mortal sin according to Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:28-30. For Jesus basically says that a person can be cast bodily into hellfire for looking upon a woman in lust. So it's not my idea that said any of this, but they are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Words that you're taking out of context. Which also has been pointed out, but you don't listen. You're right and everyone else is wrong, hence you sow contention in most threads you're in.

Same thing over and over, thread after thread.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Jesus had the gift of healing and couldn’t heal sometimes.

Actually in the event in Matthew 13:58 and Mark 6:5, Jesus healed a few but He could do no great miracles there because of their unbelief. It is not that Jesus did not have the power to do so. Jesus is God. It simply was their lack of faith that prevented Him. While Jesus operated miracles at times by the power of God the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus also had power of His own during His earthly ministry. So Jesus was more than capable.

You said:
But prayer is always needed as we don’t heal. He does. We just ask.

Nowhere did I say we have power. But in the early church the apostles were given gifts as a part of the authentication of the New Covenant and to show the Jews signs that they looked for. Some gifts were tongues, and other gifts was the ability to heal. These gifts were by the power of the Spirit. I believe these gifts were for the early church. This is not praying for a miracle but they were gifts given to the apostles.

You said:
No it’s not. If Paul writes a compliment to some believers it doesn’t mean that describes you personally.

2 Timothy 3:16-17.

You said:
That, my friend, is cherry picking. But do you likewise assume the uncomplimentary descriptions are speaking of you personally too?

I don’t hold to Belief Alone-ism for salvation which can potentially easily lead folks to turn God’s grace into a license for immorality.

You said:
If I may be so bold, it doesn’t look like you’ve seen many miracles. I don’t pray for miracles so I experience them. It doesn’t work that way. But I’ve seen a fair share of miracles. They always made a life better, but Some didn’t affect my life at all.

It is written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).

Also, the forum rules encourage so as not to cause heated debate that we are not to address the poster or the individual, but we are to stick to the topic with Scripture.

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do.

God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

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