The Weightier Matters Of The Law

LoveGodsWord said:

So it is not because of sin in your view and God's wrath is not death for our sins *Romans 6:23?

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What does Romans 5:18-19 say?

"condemnation for all men". . ."were made sinners". . .by the one trespass of Adam. . .by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

LoveGodsWord said:

So the wrath of God is not because of sin in your view and God's wrath is not death for our sins if we do not accept the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23? Romans 5:18 also says it is because of disobedience we receive the wrath of God does not not? παρακοή (parako) means disobedience. Sin is the transgression of God's law according to John in 1:John 3:4; Romans 7:7 as the law gives us the knowledge of what sin is when it is broken *Romans 3:20.

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Your response...

Clare73 said:

What does Romans 5:18-19 say?
"condemnation for all men". . ."were made sinners". . .by the one trespass of Adam.

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That is what I was saying God's wrath is because of sin right? We have inherited a sinful nature without God that loves sin (Romans 7). So the wrath of God is because the wages of sin is death and we have all sinned (Romans 6:23)? What does Hebrews 13:20-25; Matthew 5:48; Romans 12:2; 1 John 3:6-9; John 8:31-36 and Revelation 14:12 mean?

LoveGodsWord said:

So the wrath of God is not because of sin in your view and God's wrath is not death for our sins if we do not accept the gift of God's dear son *Romans 6:23? Romans 5:18
also says it is because of disobedience we receive the wrath of God does not not?

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Because of Adam's disobedience, we are born under the wrath of God, condemned.

παρακοή (parako) means disobedience. Sin is the transgression of God's law according to John in 1:John 3:4; Romans 7:7 as the law gives us the knowledge of what sin is when it is broken *Romans 3:20.

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LoveGodsWord said:

Your response...

That is what I was saying God's wrath is because of sin right? We have inherited
a sinful nature that loves sin.

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Because of Adam's sin with which we are born under God's wrath (condemntion), we don't place ourselves there, we were always there.

Clare73 said:

Because of Adam's sin with which we are born under God's wrath (condemntion), we don't place ourselves there, we were always there.

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True but we are not under God's wrath because we are born. We are under Gods wrath according to the scriptures because of sin and disobedience.

LoveGodsWord said:

True but we are not under God's wrath because we are born. We are under Gods wrath according to the scriptures because of sin and disobedience.

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See post #83.

We are under born under God's wrath because of Adam's sin and disobedience, our guilt of which causes the condemnation (Romans 5:18) with which we are born. . .and by nature (birth) are objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Clare73 said:

Because of Adam's sin and disobedience, our guilt of which causes the condemnation (Romans 5:18) with which we are born, by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

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Yes that is what I said in post # 82 right? It is because of sin and disobedience we are under God's wrath not because we are born. We are born with a sinful nature *Romans 7. We are under God's wrath because all have sinned the scriptures teach and the waged of sin is death (God's wrath) *Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23. Sin is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 we are under sin because we are guilty of breaking it.

LoveGodsWord said:

Yes that is what I said in post # 82 right. It is because of sin and disobedience we are under God's wrath not because we are born. We are born with a sinful nature *Romans 7. We are under God's wrath because all have sinned the scriptures teach and the waged of sin is death (God's wrath) *Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23

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We are born condemned by/because of Adam's sin, we have never been free of the guilt of Adam's sin. From birth, we have never been anything but condemned.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Of what sin is the 2-hour old baby guilty, that he dies?
He is guilty of Adam's sin, the wages of which is death.

Clare73 said:

We are born condemned by/because of Adam's sin, we have never been free of the guilt of Adam's sin. From birth, we have never been anything but condemned.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Of what sin is the 2-hour old baby guilty, that he dies?
He is guilty of Adam's sin, the wages of which is death.

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I see so your belief is that a baby that dies that does not know anything about sin or God's plan of salvation is lost? That is not biblical. According to the scriptures it is sin that keeps us out of God's kingdom not being born. We are only born with a sinful nature and it is this sinful nature that we need to be saved from *Romans 7:1-25; Romans 8:1-4 and why we need to be born again according to the scriptures *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9.

LoveGodsWord said:

I see so your belief is that a baby that dies that does not know anything about sin or God's plan of salvation is lost?

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Can't say that because of the NT revelation concerning predestination by God (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11).
I can only say that the baby died because death is the wages of sin.

That is not biblical. According to the scriptures
it is sin that keeps us out of God's kingdom not being born.

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Yes, and according to Scripture, it is Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-14) that does so.

Looked up the difference between sin nature and personal sins, and this link may help to clear up some of the misunderstandings

The Difference Between Sin and Sins—Two Problems with Two Solutions - Holding to Truth

Clare73 said:

Yes, and according to Scripture, it is Adam's sin (Romans 5:12-14).

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Romans 5:12-14 does not support your belief that a baby that dies and does not know anything about sin or God's plan of salvation is lost because they are born. Romans 5:12-14 agrees with what I have already shared with you here with other scriptures that we are born with a sinful nature which is why we sin (Romans 7:1-25) and need to be born again *John 3:3-7. We are not held accountable to sin however according to the scriptures until God gives us a knowledge of what sin is *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17. Romans 5:12-14 says; [12] Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:[13], (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[14], Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. These scriptures are in support of being born with a sinful nature and that it is because of sin that we are under death and condemnation not being born. We are not under God's condemnation until we sin *Romans 3:19-20 which we all have because we have a sinful nature and is why Jesus says we need to be born again *Romans 3:23; Romans 7:1-25; John 3:3-7, because those who are born again do not knowingly practice sin according to 1 John 3:6-9. God's salvation is from sin according to the scriptures (John 8:31-36)

LoveGodsWord said:

Romans 5:12-14 does not support your belief that a baby that dies and does not know anything about sin or God's plan of salvation is lost. Romans 5:12-14 agrees with what I have already shared with you

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Strawman. . .see post #90.

Precisely explain what is the revelation of Romans 5:12-14.

here with other scriptures that we are born with a sinful nature which is why we sin (Romans 7:1-25). We are not held accountable to sin however according to the scriptures until God gives us a knowledge of what sin is *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17. Romans 5:12-14 says; [12]

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Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned:[13], (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[14], Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
These scriptures are in support of being born with a sinful nature.

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Not according to the text. . .they are answering why those from Adam to Moses died when there was no sin (which is the cause of all death) to cause their death, because there was no Mosaic law to sin against.

And the answer is: those from Adam to Moses were held guilty of the sin of Adam , which is why they died, even when they did not sin (because there is no sin where there is no Mosaic law), nor did they do Adam's sin.

And that is also why the baby died. . .his guilt of Adam's sin, which he also did not do, and why we die, which we also did not do.

We are not under God's condemnation until we sin *Romans 3:19-20

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Not according to Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:18.

Clare73 said:

Strawman. . .see post #90.

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There was no strawman my side. Did you not say new born babies that die are lost earlier? I see though you changed (edited) your post though so I guess you got the message so that is good.

Clare73 said:

Precisely explain what is the revelation of Romans 5:12-14.

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Please read the post you are quoting from.

Clare73 said:

Not according to the text. . .they are answering why those from Adam to Moses died when there was no sin (which is the cause of all death) to cause their death, because there was no Mosaic law to sin against. And the answer is: those from Adam to Moses were held guilty of the sin of Adam , which is why they died, even when they did not sin (because there is no sin where there is no Mosaic law.)

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Nonsense. All of us die the first death because of Adam and Eve. This is different to the second death to which we are lost. Where does it say in the scriptures there was no law to sin against? God's people have always had Gods law through the spoken Word of God before the written Word of God was given in Exodus 20. (see Genesis 26:5). The scriptures do not teach that we are held accountable for the sins of other people.

The scriptures we are discussing are in regards to inheritance of sin by having a sinful nature not being accountable for someone else's sins and being under Gods' condemnation and wrath because of something someone else did. We are under the first death because of Adam and Eve. The second death is condemnation and wrath which is given to the lost after the second coming.

Ezekiel 18:2-4, [2] What mean you, that you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? [3], As I live, said the Lord GOD, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

James 4:17, To him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin.

Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 [30] And times of this ignorance God winked at; but now (when a knowledge of the truth is come) commands all men every where to repent: [31], Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

It is because we are born with a sinful nature that we sin (Romans 5:12-14; Romans 5:18; Romans 7:1-25) We inherit Adams sinful nature and it is because of sin that we do that we stand guilty before God in condemnation which is why we need to be born again according to Jesus *John 3:3-7 because those who are born again do not practice known unrepentant sin according to *1 John 3:6-9

Clare73 said:

Not according to Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:18.

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According to the scriptures we are not accountable for sin until we know it is sin (scriptures posted above). Is there any reason your not answering my questions?

LoveGodsWord said:

There was no strawman my side. Did you not say new born babies that die are lost earlier? I see though you changed (edited) your post though so I guess you got the message so that is good.

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The edit was to bold Can't say that, not to change any words.

Please read the post you are quoting from.

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Your post #93.

Nonsense.

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That is your response to Paul's revelation in Romans 5:12-14.

So again, precisely explain what Paul is saying in Romans 5:12-14, being true to the words of the text.

All of us die the first death because of Adam and Eve. This is different to the second death to which we are lost. Where does it say in the scriptures there was no law to sin against? God's people have always had Gods law through the spoken Word of God before the written Word of God was given in Exodus 20. (see Genesis 26:5). The scriptures do not teach that we are held accountable for the sins of other people.

The scriptures we are discussing are in regards to inheritance of sin by having a sinful nature not being accountable for someone else's sins.

Ezekiel 18:2-4, [2] What mean you, that you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? [3], As I live, said the Lord GOD, you shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.

James 4:17, To him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin.

Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 [30] And times of this ignorance God winked at; but now (when a knowledge of the truth is come) commands all men every where to repent: [31], Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

It is because we are born with a sinful nature that we sin (Romans 5:12-14; Romans 5:18; Romans 7:1-25) We inherit Adams sinful nature and it is because of sin that we do that we stand guilty before God in condemnation which is why we need to be born again according to Jesus *John 3:3-7 because those who are born again do not practice known unrepentant sin according to *1 John 3:6-9

According to the scriptures we are not accountable for sin until we know it is sin (scriptures posted above). Is there any reason your not answering my questions?

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