Multiple communion spoons - is it apostasy?

rusmeister

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Any intelligent view of the question is going to see that there are legitimate concerns on both sides, and admit both any justice in the concerns of the other side, and that they themselves tend to discount those concerns.

Most are going to take sides based on whether they have more faith in tradition*, the idea of tradition in principle, that our ancestors have a right to teach and correct us, or in modernity, the idea of a right of moderns to correct or reject tradition based on modern education, science, and knowledge (which cannot help but be worldly knowledge and wisdom, such as it is.)

* (small “t”, in case that’s not clear enough, though I would argue that Holy Tradition is based entirely on the concept of the principle of “small “t” tradition, correctable only by direct revelation from God)
 
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Looking forward to it. Will he "anathematize" Abp. Peter of Chigaco and Mid-America (ROCOR), who, taking an unequivocal public stance (in response to the views of the likes of Heers), stated that COVID-19 vaccines may be freely received by Orthodox faithful, and recently (along many other bishops and clergy) in public received the vaccination, which Heers has strongly urged the Orthodox to not have anything to do with under any circumstances? We shall see.


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Archbishop Peter Receives COVID Vaccine
No matter how much you think you do, you really do no understand Fr. Peter.
 
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abacabb3

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Looking forward to it. Will he "anathematize" Abp. Peter of Chigaco and Mid-America (ROCOR), who, taking an unequivocal public stance (in response to the views of the likes of Heers), stated that COVID-19 vaccines may be freely received by Orthodox faithful, and recently (along many other bishops and clergy) in public received the vaccination, which Heers has strongly urged the Orthodox to not have anything to do with under any circumstances? We shall see.


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Archbishop Peter Receives COVID Vaccine
So far the synods internationally have been accommodating to all vaccinations, but warned against it being compulsory and condemned the use of fetal tissue (though did not forbid taking a vaccination with fetal tissue).
 
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Which points of my post you disagree with?
That you think he would go on an interview and start "anathematizing" people shows me that you know nothing about his character. You should join his Patreon classes and listen to how he advises people to react to bishops and clergy doing things they don't like.

The irony is that Fr. Peter is far more even-keeled than those who criticize him.
 
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tapi

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That you think he would go on an interview and start "anathematizing" people shows me that you know nothing about his character. You should join his Patreon classes and listen to how he advises people to react to bishops and clergy doing things they don't like.

The irony is that Fr. Peter is far more even-keeled than those who criticize him.

Of course it was not meant in a literal sense, hence the quote marks. However, the labeling of those who use or enact sanitary measures as faithless rationalists or even blasphemers of the Holy Spirit by Heers isn't even that far from "anathematizing" them (if he could do that).

BTW, I would not call a guy who conceives the COVID-19 crisis as nothing but a manufactured scheme by the Zionists and Globalists to destroy Christianity, establish a New World Order and insert the Antichrist as the world ruler, with the precautions simply being the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society, "even-keeled" :tearsofjoy:
 
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rusmeister

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Of course it was not meant in a literal sense, hence the quote marks. However, the labeling of those who use or enact sanitary measures as faithless rationalists or even blasphemers of the Holy Spirit by Heers isn't even that far from "anathematizing" them (if he could do that).

BTW, I would not call a guy who conceives the COVID-19 crisis as nothing but a manufactured scheme by the Zionists and Globalists to destroy Christianity, establish a New World Order and insert the Antichrist as the world ruler, with the precautions simply being the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society, "even-keeled" :tearsofjoy:

Hi, Tapi,
As a matter of fact, I have not listened to Fr Peter much, and am not especially influenced by him, but I do happen to think that if not "nothing but", it certainly is, in addition to being an actual pandemic, it is also a manufactured scheme by globalists to establish a new world order with them on the top, which involves destroying us, and if not "simply", still, the precautions are ALSO the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society. I see plenty of evidence pointing to that which you are either not familiar with, or have dismissed far too quickly. My point here being NOT to convince you, but to say that "the other side", right or wrong, has a legitimate case, and your own case will always be weak as long as you have not dealt with the best and most reasonable ideas of the side you disagree with. Does that not sound even-keeled, whether right or wrong? Is it not possible that a person can think such things and be reasonable in so doing?

The danger of using words like "anathematize" carelessly (and a strong argument for learning to choose them more carefully), is that people CAN take your choice of words literally. To be honest, I didn't learn how to say exactly what I think with as much clarity as possible until I "met" CS Lewis. We all have emotional attitudes, and naturally like to express our ideas simply and crudely. Unfortunately, while very effective in the bubble of echo chambers where everyone agrees with you, it winds up being a losing tactic in debate and disagreement with those who haven't accepted your views.
 
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SalemsConcordance

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Tapi, please forgive me if I cause you any anger or acedia.

You make me concerned for your obsession with Fr Peter - the Priesthood is not the person - this makes me worried for you with continually referring to Fr Peter as "Heers" in scorn from thread to thread. Ordination is a Mystery from God, yes? Have you reconsidered ever contacting Fr Peter, and failing this, his Bishop to give you peace?

Elder Ephraim, if we judge a Priest and are wrong, we have a burning coal in our mouth. If we judge a Priest, and we are right, we have a black coal in our mouth.

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it seems clear you believe the innovations not to be problematic at all. With your continual defense of secular authorities and lockdowns and restrictions on Church services, you also believe that governments and secular rules are now at peace with the Orthodox Church. Somehow, the world and Christs Church have united for the common good of this pandemic? This is utopian, and not backed up by any Saints, nor Holy Fathers of the Church, nor the Gospel John 15:18-27.

The tens and tens and tens of millions of Orthodox victims of the utopians was very recent in the 20th century (add non-Orthodox for +hundreds of millions). The Russian, Romanian and Albanian new martyrs are not from that long ago, and some fathers are still alive who survived decades confinement - did all of those haters of men and God disappear?

Elder Paisios - "A Christian Must Not Be Fanatical" - Holy Cross Orthodox Church
St. Paisios: A truly humble person never behaves like a teacher; he will listen, and, whenever his opinion is requested, he responds humbly. In other words, he replies like a student. He who believes that he is capable of correcting others is filled with egotism.

A person that begins to do something with a good intention and eventually reaches an extreme point, lacks true discernment. His actions exemplify a latent type of egotism that is hidden beneath this behavior; he is unaware of it, because he does not know himself that well, which is why he goes to extremes.

The concern about the state of the Church is not a singular position of one Priest.
https://www.jordanville.org/files/A...-Spreading-Disease-Through-Holy-Communion.pdf
2. Concerning the kissing of the priests’ hands and staying in the Church. The timing of the conversation on these topics is very fortuitous.

a. On the second Sunday of the Great Lent we celebrated the memory of St. Gregory Palamas who greatly preached by word and deed the possibility of participating in the uncreated divine energies. Conversely, those of us who abstained from participating in the Sunday worship have practically preached the heresy of Barlaam who denied the human participation in the divine, uncreated energies.

b. No doubt, the priest is a human being, weak, fallen, and struggling to purify his inner being. Yet, the priest, “clothed with the grace of the priesthood” participates and radiates the uncreated, divine energies through his priestly office, regardless of his personal sanctification. Obviously, if the priest is a holy man, then he transmits double the grace. Nevertheless, it is important to reiterate that when we kiss the hands of the priests, we participate in the uncreated, divine energies of God, and we receive the Divine Grace according to the measure of our faith and piety.

c. As St. Paisios of the Holy Mountain (†1994) used to say, who always kissed with great piety the hands of the officiating priest after the Divine Liturgy, “the priest’s hands are not his own.”

d. If we believe that the priest can transmit diseases then we deny the grace of the holy priesthood, ultimately denying the grace of God. When with our actions we doubt or deny the uncreated divine energies, then we manufacture another god, and we refuse the true God.

e. The same holds true about the holy temples. The temple is the body of our living God. And this is not just symbolic. In our Church, the figures and symbols enclose a fundamental quality, the Truth, and this is why we observe these symbols. And the truth is that the holy temple as the Body of Christ cannot be a place where diseases can be transmitted. Should we doubt this, then we doubt that there is grace within them. We equate the Temple with an ordinary gathering hall.

3. All this sad conversation ends with a serious question and a sad observation.

a. The question is: Do we really believe in God? And if so, which God? In a Barlaamitic god manufactured by our own reasoning? In a god that we attribute as much grace as our poor brain can fit?

b. The bitter realization is that we inadvertently blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. We hold a heretical mindset, even while we declare our Orthodox faith. By doubting the Holy Spirit, we commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and we are in danger of losing the forgiveness both in this present age and in the eternal age to come.

c. When we are afraid to kiss the holy icons, to kiss the hand of the priest, to stay within the holy Church, then by our actions we deny the salvific and sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. We consider that the Holy Spirit is capable of transmitting “uncleanness or impurity” and this constitutes a great blasphemy.

4. Therefore, let us confess with our actions, as we do with our lips, that we believe that in the holy icons, in the priests, and in the holy temples reside the Divine grace.

a. Our participation in this grace depends to the measure of our faith. The amount of grace we receive, is directly related to the amount of faith we have.
 
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tapi

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Hi, Tapi,
As a matter of fact, I have not listened to Fr Peter much, and am not especially influenced by him, but I do happen to think that if not "nothing but", it certainly is, in addition to being an actual pandemic, it is also a manufactured scheme by globalists to establish a new world order with them on the top, which involves destroying us, and if not "simply", still, the precautions are ALSO the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society. I see plenty of evidence pointing to that which you are either not familiar with, or have dismissed far too quickly. My point here being NOT to convince you, but to say that "the other side", right or wrong, has a legitimate case, and your own case will always be weak as long as you have not dealt with the best and most reasonable ideas of the side you disagree with. Does that not sound even-keeled, whether right or wrong? Is it not possible that a person can think such things and be reasonable in so doing?

The danger of using words like "anathematize" carelessly (and a strong argument for learning to choose them more carefully), is that people CAN take your choice of words literally. To be honest, I didn't learn how to say exactly what I think with as much clarity as possible until I "met" CS Lewis. We all have emotional attitudes, and naturally like to express our ideas simply and crudely. Unfortunately, while very effective in the bubble of echo chambers where everyone agrees with you, it winds up being a losing tactic in debate and disagreement with those who haven't accepted your views.

I'm afraid I will have to concur with Gurney here in that I have seen very, very few reasonable points from guys like Heers and his ilk. Such ravings are more often heard from the mouths of madmen than Orthodox priests, and they have shown nothing to back up their ludicrous theories. I do agree that the management of the COVID-19 inside the Church has not nearly always gone optimally, nevertheless, I find it impossible to find anything agreeable in the basic premises of these gentlemen.
 
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tapi

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Tapi, please forgive me if I cause you any anger or acedia.

You make me concerned for your obsession with Fr Peter - the Priesthood is not the person - this makes me worried for you with continually referring to Fr Peter as "Heers" in scorn from thread to thread. Ordination is a Mystery from God, yes? Have you reconsidered ever contacting Fr Peter, and failing this, his Bishop to give you peace?

Elder Ephraim, if we judge a Priest and are wrong, we have a burning coal in our mouth. If we judge a Priest, and we are right, we have a black coal in our mouth.

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but it seems clear you believe the innovations not to be problematic at all. With your continual defense of secular authorities and lockdowns and restrictions on Church services, you also believe that governments and secular rules are now at peace with the Orthodox Church. Somehow, the world and Christs Church have united for the common good of this pandemic? This is utopian, and not backed up by any Saints, nor Holy Fathers of the Church, nor the Gospel John 15:18-27.

The tens and tens and tens of millions of Orthodox victims of the utopians was very recent in the 20th century (add non-Orthodox for +hundreds of millions). The Russian, Romanian and Albanian new martyrs are not from that long ago, and some fathers are still alive who survived decades confinement - did all of those haters of men and God disappear?

Elder Paisios - "A Christian Must Not Be Fanatical" - Holy Cross Orthodox Church


The concern about the state of the Church is not a singular position of one Priest.
https://www.jordanville.org/files/A...-Spreading-Disease-Through-Holy-Communion.pdf

I have repeatedly stated that I fully respect the priesthood of archpriest Heers, even if I find very little spiritual wisdom in his output. To your assumptions about my position on the precautions, you are slightly wrong. While I consider the lockdowns in society a normal solution to a pandemic which spreads through social contact, there have been issues locally worldwide in regard to the handling of the pandemic by local authorities and Church officials. This, however, is only to be expected given that we haven't had a comparable pandemic in the last 100 years. I do not recognize the situation being presented where the Church is especially being targeted: the solution (minimizing contact + other measures) is same everywhere, every country, not just Christian nations.

There is no evidence for the crazy claims (of a fraud taking place, Zionists and Masons running the situation, the Antichrist being seated) being presented. It does not become Orthodox clergymen to promote such ideas, without adequately backing their assertions. Mind you, these folks are a SUPER minority position, maybe 0,1% of all Orthodox and clergy, yet they are presenting their message as the teaching of the Church, despite their ultra minority status.

Obsession you say? I follow the currents of Orthodox theology as a part of my daily life. When a very small party of folks start to call out pretty much 99% of the Church as heretics or blasphemers, that can only be expected to cause reactions! It is quite far from an obsession to react to very public and frankly, outrageous takes.
 
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rusmeister

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I'm afraid I will have to concur with Gurney here in that I have seen very, very few reasonable points from guys like Heers and his ilk. Such ravings are more often heard from the mouths of madmen than Orthodox priests, and they have shown nothing to back up their ludicrous theories. I do agree that the management of the COVID-19 inside the Church has not nearly always gone optimally, nevertheless, I find it impossible to find anything agreeable in the basic premises of these gentlemen.

I wrote this in response to Gurney on the other thread, but it seems completely applicable here:

I understand that. But you make my point. You evidently do not encounter said nuanced thinking. You have heard the equivalent of the village atheists, or their fundamental Baptist Billie Joe and Bobby Sue counterparts, and conclude that there is therefore no Christopher Hitchens or Ravi Zacharias among them.

Why should the obvious existence of the virus exclude conspiracy to take advantage of it? Why must it be either/or? Is not a more complex position possible, that admits many of the things you see to be true, but also some things you hold in doubt?

Why is it impossible to imagine that?
 
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I have repeatedly stated that I fully respect the priesthood of archpriest Heers, even if I find very little spiritual wisdom in his output. To your assumptions about my position on the precautions, you are slightly wrong. While I consider the lockdowns in society a normal solution to a pandemic which spreads through social contact, there have been issues locally worldwide in regard to the handling of the pandemic by local authorities and Church officials. This, however, is only to be expected given that we haven't had a comparable pandemic in the last 100 years. I do not recognize the situation being presented where the Church is especially being targeted: the solution (minimizing contact + other measures) is same everywhere, every country, not just Christian nations.

There is no evidence for the crazy claims (of a fraud taking place, Zionists and Masons running the situation, the Antichrist being seated) being presented. It does not become Orthodox clergymen to promote such ideas, without clearly backing their assertions. Mind you, these folks are a SUPER minority position, maybe 0,1% of all Orthodox and clergy, yet they are presenting their message as the teaching of the Church, despite their ultra minority status.

Obsession you say? I follow the currents of Orthodox theology as a part of my daily life. When a very small party of folks start to call out pretty much 99% of the Church as heretics or blasphemers, that can only be expected to cause reactions! It is quite far from an obsession to react to very public and frankly, outrageous takes.
In the days immediately preceding Antichrist your ratio of the faithful to the faithless and perverse is likely spot-on. I wonder if these are those days.
 
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Platina

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Of course it was not meant in a literal sense, hence the quote marks. However, the labeling of those who use or enact sanitary measures as faithless rationalists or even blasphemers of the Holy Spirit by Heers isn't even that far from "anathematizing" them (if he could do that).

BTW, I would not call a guy who conceives the COVID-19 crisis as nothing but a manufactured scheme by the Zionists and Globalists to destroy Christianity, establish a New World Order and insert the Antichrist as the world ruler, with the precautions simply being the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society, "even-keeled" :tearsofjoy:
Because you don't know him and you've openly stated that you have no interest in getting to know him.

He has his views, but he doesn't go around declaring people outside the Church. I've heard him many many times tell people not to judge their priests and bishops like that.

He doesn't make ridiculous judgments about people like, "Oh, I guess Patriarch Bartholomew is going to start anathematizing everyone now!!!!"
 
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tapi

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Because you don't know him and you've openly stated that you have no interest in getting to know him.

He has his views, but he doesn't go around declaring people outside the Church. I've heard him many many times tell people not to judge their priests and bishops like that.

He doesn't make ridiculous judgments about people like, "Oh, I guess Patriarch Bartholomew is going to start anathematizing everyone now!!!!"

Well, in the materials authored or circulated by him it has been frankly asserted that the vast majority of the Church have fallen to apostasy or have even committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is to say, fallen outside the possibility of repentance or salvation at all. That, I would deem, is an even more nefarious statement to make even as compared to "anathematizing" someone.

Moreover, in the episodes co-authored by Heers with "Elder" Savvas the Athonite, it was suggested that the Orthodox who find themselves under the spiritual oversight of "faithless" (read:sanitary measures enacting/complying) clergy should seek out "true" spiritual fathers even if from a far away distance. Maybe he has changed his tone but I have not seen it, especially since he is currently translating and publishing the said episodies from Greek to Russian to reach a wider audience. The last time I checked, he actually liked a post from a lady who stated, in response to a post by Heers asserting that the use of masks by Orthodox Christians and especially by the clergy is a sign of a lack of faith, on his FB page, that she had ceased to attend her parish due the the "faithless" sanitary measures being employed, without offering any comment or rebuke. If he actually cared for the integrity of the communal prayer life of the Church, he should publicly denounce such actions immediately.
 
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Well, in the materials authored or circulated by him it has been frankly asserted that the vast majority of the Church have fallen to apostasy or have even committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is to say, fallen outside the possibility of repentance or salvation at all. That, I would deem, is an even more nefarious statement to make even as compared to "anathematizing" someone.

Moreover, in the episodes co-authored by Heers with "Elder" Savvas the Athonite, it was suggested that the Orthodox who find themselves under the spiritual oversight of "faithless" (read:sanitary measures enacting/complying) clergy should seek out "true" spiritual fathers even if from a far away distance. Maybe he has changed his tone but I have not seen it, especially since he is currently translating and publishing the said episodies from Greek to Russian to reach a wider audience. The last time I checked, he actually liked a post from a lady who stated, in response to a post by Heers asserting that the use of masks by Orthodox Christians and especially by the clergy is a sign of a lack of faith, on his FB page, that she had ceased to attend her parish due the the "faithless" sanitary measures being employed, without offering any comment or rebuke. If he actually cared for the integrity of the communal prayer life of the Church, he should publicly denounce such actions immediately.

Tapi, I acknowledge that you are free to think and do as you please, but do you notice anything gauche or unseemly in the way you articulate yourself? Or are you satisfied with your expression? Also, regarding that last line you wrote—how easy or difficult was it for you to write?
 
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abacabb3

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Of course it was not meant in a literal sense, hence the quote marks. However, the labeling of those who use or enact sanitary measures as faithless rationalists or even blasphemers of the Holy Spirit by Heers isn't even that far from "anathematizing" them (if he could do that).

BTW, I would not call a guy who conceives the COVID-19 crisis as nothing but a manufactured scheme by the Zionists and Globalists to destroy Christianity, establish a New World Order and insert the Antichrist as the world ruler, with the precautions simply being the steps through which the population is being led towards accepting permanent draconian control in the forthcoming global society, "even-keeled" :tearsofjoy:
To be fair, if we include the old world, probably 20-25 percent of Orthodox believe bar codes and smart phones are likewise manufactured schemes by Zionists and Globalists to incrementally bring in the anti-Christ. Saint Paisios was explicit about this (not the smart phones, but bar codes, IDs, credit cards, and money all having "666s"). So, you may think this is crazy, but we can also show respect tour our brothers that this is a popular train of thought.

As for myself, I try not to judge especially the saints when they say this but rather remind myself that friendship with the world is enmity with God. So, in some sense, we must admit they are right. If a global development is not helping us crucify the flesh and subdue the passions, growing in piety and faith, then its "pushers" are certainly demonic.

I think so much of the world is in the hands of the devil, we think tons of evil things are normal. Saint Augustine warned that there is a real danger that something that is evil will be universally regarded as good, and so people will not even know they are sinning. He was not saying anything prophetic, he was commenting on his own day. I think we are no different today.
 
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Platina

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Well, in the materials authored or circulated by him it has been frankly asserted that the vast majority of the Church have fallen to apostasy or have even committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is to say, fallen outside the possibility of repentance or salvation at all. That, I would deem, is an even more nefarious statement to make even as compared to "anathematizing" someone.

Moreover, in the episodes co-authored by Heers with "Elder" Savvas the Athonite, it was suggested that the Orthodox who find themselves under the spiritual oversight of "faithless" (read:sanitary measures enacting/complying) clergy should seek out "true" spiritual fathers even if from a far away distance. Maybe he has changed his tone but I have not seen it, especially since he is currently translating and publishing the said episodies from Greek to Russian to reach a wider audience. The last time I checked, he actually liked a post from a lady who stated, in response to a post by Heers asserting that the use of masks by Orthodox Christians and especially by the clergy is a sign of a lack of faith, on his FB page, that she had ceased to attend her parish due the the "faithless" sanitary measures being employed, without offering any comment or rebuke. If he actually cared for the integrity of the communal prayer life of the Church, he should publicly denounce such actions immediately.
He is more even-keeled because he understands that problems among the clergy, even serious problems, does not mean the clergy are suddenly not clergy, that they are somehow outside the Church, that their Sacraments are suddenly invalid. Fr. Peter readily acknowledges that he personally is not the Church and that such decisions belong only to Synods.

On the other hand, you seem to think that if one holds the views that Fr. Peter does, that MUST mean also considering people as anathema, whether literal or not; it MUST mean declaring himself one of the few true Orthodox left, etc.

There is a path of moderation that Fr. Peter very clearly sees and tries to walk, but your comments are all about extremes.
 
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Antoni

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I have repeatedly stated that I fully respect the priesthood of archpriest Heers, even if I find very little spiritual wisdom in his output. To your assumptions about my position on the precautions, you are slightly wrong. While I consider the lockdowns in society a normal solution to a pandemic which spreads through social contact, there have been issues locally worldwide in regard to the handling of the pandemic by local authorities and Church officials. This, however, is only to be expected given that we haven't had a comparable pandemic in the last 100 years. I do not recognize the situation being presented where the Church is especially being targeted: the solution (minimizing contact + other measures) is same everywhere, every country, not just Christian nations.

There is no evidence for the crazy claims (of a fraud taking place, Zionists and Masons running the situation, the Antichrist being seated) being presented. It does not become Orthodox clergymen to promote such ideas, without adequately backing their assertions. Mind you, these folks are a SUPER minority position, maybe 0,1% of all Orthodox and clergy, yet they are presenting their message as the teaching of the Church, despite their ultra minority status.

Obsession you say? I follow the currents of Orthodox theology as a part of my daily life. When a very small party of folks start to call out pretty much 99% of the Church as heretics or blasphemers, that can only be expected to cause reactions! It is quite far from an obsession to react to very public and frankly, outrageous takes.

I see that the Lenten season has not quelled your desire to slander an ordained member of the clergy.

Since you seem to put much creedence in your own wisdom and knowledge, please supply the readers with your qualifications to judge Father Peter. Of course, no need for specifics (not looking to dox you), but rather an inkling so that we can have a general idea of your authority to judge.

In addition, please supply the following since you seem to enjoy to spread your thoughts and opinions so freely: where did Father Peter say that this pandemic was a “fraud taking place, Zionists and Masons running the situation, the Antichrist being seated” AND ALSO your proof that this is false if he did in fact say it.
 
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Platina

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I just heard this from one of Fr. Peter's most recent lectures, warning about the temptation on the right to judge everyone and everything and think everything is lost:

"There needs to be a sense of allowing God to take control by His providence. There needs to be a sense that God is in control, and 'I’m going to do what I have to do for survival. I’m not going to accuse anybody, I’m not going to stand in judgment, I’m not going to act as if I’m the Church and I can pass judgment on any priest and say he’s not a priest, he’s not a bishop, he’s a heretic. All of that I’m going to leave to God. I just want to remain faithful, and so therefore I’m going to make those sacrifices that I have to make in order to remain faithful.' And faithful means that I’m not innovating and I’m not departing from the Holy Tradition. Faithful means that I’m following the Holy Fathers."
 
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