Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

Jamdoc · Mar 17, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The Rapture is a New Mystery Revealed by the Apostle Paul:

• 1 Corinthians 15:51

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

The Olivet Discourse event of the gathering up by angels is already revealed prior to Paul's revealing of a mystery. It's no longer a mystery Paul is revealing if Paul is merely giving more details about what Jesus already talked about. This suggests a Pre-Trib Rapture event being mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51, and it not being the same event in the Olivet Discourse.

Incorrect. The rapture shows up in Isaiah 26, as well as John 14 and the Olivet Discourse.
The mystery that Paul was revealing was not the rapture itself, but rather that even without dying, someone who is raptured is given a glorified body like those who are resurrected. You should also understand that mystery often does not mean "totally new information" but something that was eluded to in previous scripture, now it is revealed in a more clear manner. The Messianic prophecies begin in Genesis 3, but at that point it's a mystery. The Doctrine of the Trinity begins in Genesis 1, it is also a mystery.

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Matthew 25:13

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

This only works with a Pre-Trib Rapture if we are to be true to what these words plainly say. For a person can pinpoint the hour and the day by saying that Jesus is only going to come for His saints in the Middle of the Tribulation. So then a believer can be lazy and beat their fellow servants as Jesus says because He is coming at a later time (in the middle of the Tribulation). Note: I have seen this beating (verbally speaking of course) done by other believers (and they were strongly against a Pre-Trib Rapture). They were so insulting with Pre-Tribbers that they made it sound like Pre-Tribbers were enemies of Christ.

This is also incorrect. A pre wrath position can anticipate within a few year window, but not the date or hour. We're told nobody knows the day or hour, but Jesus gives us the signs of the season relatively speaking.
It is Mid Trib and Post Trib that have the fatal flaw of being able to date set.
For mid trib, as soon as the covenant with many is confirmed count forward 1260 days, you have the day.
For post trib, as soon as the abomination of desolation takes place count forward 1290 days, or, 1335 days some people might say (getting both from Daniel 12). Either way because the midpoint and endpoints have clear date markers, it should clue people in that neither theory works.

Pre wrath does not have a set date. The abomination of desolation will happen and then SOMETIME during that 1290 days it'll happen but nobody knows exactly when. People can guesstimate that it'll be at least 5 months before the 1290th day after the Abomination of desolation because of the 5th trumpet, but that's still a 3 year window of anticipating but not knowing when.

Jesus also gives a warning to those who would eat and drink with the drunkards and beat his fellowservants. They'll be cut into pieces and their lot will be with the hypocrites.

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"

• Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."

• Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."

• Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"

• Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."

• Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

Jesus says we can escape all these things, and in context this would include famines, and yet Revelation we learn that the third seal describes famine. So this suggests a Pre-Trib Rapture because we can escape the third seal. This does not bode well for a Mid Trib only Rapture view.

Escape doesn't always mean rapture. Being preserved in the wilderness escaping the persecution off the grid is still escaping.

From Luke 21

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

The same passage of scripture saying to pray that you'll escape all these things, also says that YOU will face all these things, it is addressed to the same audience. If Jesus was teaching pretribulationism, He would not be addressing this to believers who would escape from all these things.

This means you either believe in a partial pre trib rapture, or are cherrypicking which verses are addressed to believers and which verses are addressed to unbelieving Jews (hint, He's talking to 4 apostles knowing the words will be written down for future believers, none of them are unbelieving Jews)

To me, it means that not every Christian will be captured and martyred or starve. Some will be provided for by God and aided through these times by God to preserve them until Jesus returns.
I suppose that's almost the post trib stance, except I don't also have God pouring out His wrath on any believers.

PaulCyp1 · Mar 18, 2021

Yeah, it sounds like the "rapture" because the Protestant denominations that dreamed up the "rapture" 1,200 years after the Bible was compiled, designed it to sound like the biblical text. "Rapture" was never heard of by a Christian prior to that time. It was never mentioned by Jesus Christ. It is not a belief of original and true Christianity.

Jamdoc · Mar 18, 2021

PaulCyp1 said:
Yeah, it sounds like the "rapture" because the Protestant denominations that dreamed up the "rapture" 1,200 years after the Bible was compiled, designed it to sound like the biblical text. "Rapture" was never heard of by a Christian prior to that time. It was never mentioned by Jesus Christ. It is not a belief of original and true Christianity.

You can use the term harpazo if you want
or "caught up" if English is important to you but the doctrine of the resurrection followed by the living being changed and then caught up into the air is biblical.

DavidPT · Mar 18, 2021

Jamdoc said:
To me, it means that not every Christian will be captured and martyred or starve. Some will be provided for by God and aided through these times by God to preserve them until Jesus returns.
I suppose that's almost the post trib stance, except I don't also have God pouring out His wrath on any believers.

If pretrib can occur at least 3.5 years or more before the 2nd coming, how much time at the most can prewrath occur before the 2nd coming, and still be prewrath? Post trib is the 2nd coming, but none of these other views would be, including prewrath, apparently.

Brian Mcnamee · Mar 18, 2021

Hammster said:
It’s not about the rapture. It’s about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

learn the parable of the fig tree, Jesus cursed the fig tree because no ripe or 1st fruits were on it and then jesus noted Jerusalem and the temple would be toast. The return of the fig tree and the other trees is the key and futurist can see the fig tree return and other trees and many nations were created in 1948. This is the generation that is going to see all things come to pass. Now we have Israel and indeed a movement to build the 3rd temple is gaining as last week Islamic clerics said Jews have a right to the temple mount. If only there was a Bible verse that associates the return of the temple after a long absence with the latter days and the coming of the kingdom.

Hos 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

The man of sin is revealed where?
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Note this man is performing lying signs and wonders and people believe him and he is revealed in the temple and is destroyed when the LORD comes in the brightness of his coming. Now this certainly did not happen in 70 AD and the 3rd temple is a coming and the man of sin will indeed show up. then the abomination of desolation.

Hammster · Mar 18, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
learn the parable of the fig tree, Jesus cursed the fig tree because no ripe or 1st fruits were on it and then jesus noted Jerusalem and the temple would be toast. The return of the fig tree and the other trees is the key and futurist can see the fig tree return and other trees and many nations were created in 1948. This is the generation that is going to see all things come to pass. Now we have Israel and indeed a movement to build the 3rd temple is gaining as last week Islamic clerics said Jews have a right to the temple mount. If only there was a Bible verse that associates the return of the temple after a long absence with the latter days and the coming of the kingdom.

Hos 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

The man of sin is revealed where?
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[fn] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[fn] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[fn] who now restrains will do so until He[fn] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Note this man is performing lying signs and wonders and people believe him and he is revealed in the temple and is destroyed when the LORD comes in the brightness of his coming. Now this certainly did not happen in 70 AD and the 3rd temple is a coming and the man of sin will indeed show up. then the abomination of desolation.

I’m not a futurist, so I won’t be responding to your arguments.

Jamdoc · Mar 18, 2021

DavidPT said:
If pretrib can occur at least 3.5 years or more before the 2nd coming, how much time at the most can prewrath occur before the 2nd coming, and still be prewrath? Post trib is the 2nd coming, but none of these other views would be, including prewrath, apparently.

2 things

1. The way Prewrath understands it, it is the second coming. It's your misconception that the second coming is a singular event.
The first coming was everything that happened from the Birth until the ascension of Jesus.
The second coming is everything from the rapture until the rest of eternity. The second coming never ends.
If Jesus appears in the clouds, that is, coming down from heaven, that would be a coming of the Lord right? It's not coming 1.5.. so it is the second coming.

2. We don't know exactly how long the wrath of God is, we know that it is at LEAST 5 months, and if the 6th trumpet lasts for 1 year 1 month 1 day and 1 hour, that'd make the trumpets last about a year and a half or more (the language is a little bit ambiguous, I do LEAN toward the army taking that long to advance and kill that many people but, the killing part could happen pretty quickly with nukes if the army is China, the only country that could field an army that large)
I am not sure which lasts longer, the great tribulations, or the wrath of God, both of them combined last 3.5 years, and if the 5th and 6th trumpet take about a year and a half, well, then we're looking at the GT's lasting for about 2 years, maybe less. But we don't know, we just know that they will be cut short (by the second coming)
We do know that without being able to buy or sell, and with being actively hunted down and with our technology being able to use cameras for face identification and with IR they can even track people through the wilderness with drones.. that Jesus is right that if the GT's continued for the entire 3.5 years it'd kill every Christian and Jew on earth. The Nazis killed millions of Jews in Operation Reinhard, the most deadly phase of the Holocaust and it lasted about 2 years... they didn't have the technology we do for tracking and hunting people down. If the Nazis had the tech we have today, they likely would have been able to kill them all unless God had intervened.

Timtofly · Mar 18, 2021

chad kincham said:
Christians focus way too much on the rapture timing. I’m pretty sure it’s mid trib, though.
I’ve noticed pre trib bears take it personally and get offended if you don’t believe their way, though.

The Second Coming is at the 6th Seal. Not just a rapture.

Timtofly · Mar 18, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I do also warn about creating different classes of heavenly citizens. There are those, and you seem to be one of them, that designate that only "church age" saints are the bride of Christ, and that your "tribulation saints" are not, or the old testament saints. You're creating "second class" citizens of heaven, and many pre trib kind of look down on "tribulation saints" subconsciously.
They are willing to be tortured and die for the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Only the church is in Paradise and does not come back to earth. That is what chapter 7 claims. There is already a second group on earth at that time. The 144k are on earth. The church is in Paradise. The church never comes back to earth until the New Jerusalem descends from the New Heaven.

The 144k and those harvested on earth are resurrected in Revelation 20:4 to live on earth. There are not two classes of people. There is the church in Paradise, and the first generation of those in the Millennium who live on earth. At the 6th Seal the church and all those who will ever live in Paradise will be complete. No more additions are written about in Scripture. There will be people living on the earth in incorruptible sinless bodies though. The Millennium is not a repeat of the church age. It is a whole new ball game. All carnal life is burned up at the Second Coming.

Jamdoc · Mar 18, 2021

Timtofly said:
Only the church is in Paradise and does not come back to earth. That is what chapter 7 claims. There is already a second group on earth at that time. The 144k are on earth. The church is in Paradise. The church never comes back to earth until the New Jerusalem descends from the New Heaven.

The 144k and those harvested on earth are resurrected in Revelation 20:4 to live on earth. There are not two classes of people. There is the church in Paradise, and the first generation of those in the Millennium who live on earth. At the 6th Seal the church and all those who will ever live in Paradise will be complete. No more additions are written about in Scripture. There will be people living on the earth in incorruptible sinless bodies though. The Millennium is not a repeat of the church age. It is a whole new ball game. All carnal life is burned up at the Second Coming.

Most of what you said makes no sense but..

I am actually wondering about Revelation 7, and 14 and 15 more (as I see them as a parallel), and I don't know if I agree with the commonly held position that they are Hebrew Evangelists.

A Nelson Walters video suggests that they are instead the first to be raptured when Jesus appears in the clouds.

I'm open to the idea anyway.

Matthew 20:16 does say that the last shall be first.

But anyway, I do disagree with your idea that the Church does not come down to reign in the Millennium.
That's not biblical because where Jesus goes, we go. That's the whole point.
Why would I want to be in heaven if Jesus is on Earth for 1000 years?
That'd be 1000 years of suffering without our savior.
We go up to heaven to be protected from the wrath of God, we come back down to rule and reign, and that is everyone the old testament saints, the church, the 144,000.

I guess the 144,000 are a special group in that they're the only ones that can learn a particular song.. but.. it's not like creating second classes the way that some people look at the church being the bride of Christ, the bride of a King is a very privileged position afterall, and then there's those "other people" the "commoners" beneath her.
the 144k aren't going to be lording around over everyone else and saying "haha I know a song that you can never sing!" or anything like that. I mean, they had to be virgins their entire lives to learn it.

Timtofly · Mar 18, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Most of what you said makes no sense but..

I am actually wondering about Revelation 7, and 14 and 15 more (as I see them as a parallel), and I don't know if I agree with the commonly held position that they are Hebrew Evangelists.

A Nelson Walters video suggests that they are instead the first to be raptured when Jesus appears in the clouds.

I'm open to the idea anyway.

Matthew 20:16 does say that the last shall be first.

But anyway, I do disagree with your idea that the Church does not come down to reign in the Millennium.
That's not biblical because where Jesus goes, we go. That's the whole point.
Why would I want to be in heaven if Jesus is on Earth for 1000 years?
That'd be 1000 years of suffering without our savior.
We go up to heaven to be protected from the wrath of God, we come back down to rule and reign, and that is everyone the old testament saints, the church, the 144,000.

I guess the 144,000 are a special group in that they're the only ones that can learn a particular song.. but.. it's not like creating second classes the way that some people look at the church being the bride of Christ, the bride of a King is a very privileged position afterall, and then there's those "other people" the "commoners" beneath her.
the 144k aren't going to be lording around over everyone else and saying "haha I know a song that you can never sing!" or anything like that. I mean, they had to be virgins their entire lives to learn it.

Jesus chose 12 disciples to take the gospels to the Jews, first time around. This is the same thing. There is no church. There are more people so more disciples. This is an earthly ministry of years. Only 2 years are left though. The Trumpets and Thunders will not last for more than 2 years.

If these are not from the house of Jacob why name the tribes of Jacob? Paul separated the church from the actual Second Coming event. Jesus did not mention the church, because this is a harvest of the house of Jacob, not the world. He calls the sheep and goats, both of Jacob out of the nations until all the house of Jacob have their souls removed from these corruptible bodies.

That is the purpose of the 6 Trumpets. The 7 Thunders are the burning of the tares and the rest of the Nations harvested whom God chooses to live on the earth in the Millennium. We are not told about the thunders. Currently the church is fixated on the last 42 months when Satan is in control after the Trumpets and Thunders. Why? The church is not going to be here. The sheep and wheat are not going to be here. The only ones left are those who will be removed from the Lamb's book of life and those who remain in the Lamb's book of life by getting their heads chopped off. That is how Revelation reads in chronological order. Yet many want to change the order to fit their eschatology.

Timtofly · Mar 18, 2021

Jamdoc said:
But anyway, I do disagree with your idea that the Church does not come down to reign in the Millennium.
That's not biblical because where Jesus goes, we go. That's the whole point.
Why would I want to be in heaven if Jesus is on Earth for 1000 years?
That'd be 1000 years of suffering without our savior.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

It does not say the Lamb is always there. It does say the church will always be there.

The Lord God sitting on the throne will always be there.

IMO, Paradise is directly above the earth, we just cannot see it. I think it will be seen from earth at the 6th Seal. The church will have a front row seat, as it were. That is the reason for the thrones seen from earth, but not on earth in Revelation 20:4. Only after the Millennium in the NHNE will New Jerusalem (Paradise) actually rest on the earth itself.

This is all settled before the 7th Seal is even opened.

chad kincham · Mar 19, 2021

Timtofly said:
The Second Coming is at the 6th Seal. Not just a rapture.

You can find His return to earth in revelation 11:15

Timtofly · Mar 19, 2021

chad kincham said:
You can find His return to earth in revelation 11:15

That is the end of the return. Just like the week of the Cross was from Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday, the 7th Trumpet is the last week of the Second Coming. Christ will have completed His time on earth starting at the 6th Seal and finalized at the 7th Trumpet.

The 6th Seal is the start like the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River was the start. This time Jesus spends on earth will be shorter than 3.5 years, because the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the shorter will be the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

rom8:38 · Mar 19, 2021

Jamdoc said:
You got me wrong.
Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the rapture.

I see it less as bouncing back and forth and more as 2 parallel chronological narratives, with a potentially unchronological part here and there (such as the 2 witnesses, I don't see 3.5 years between the 6th and 7th trumpet.. at most 1 year, 1 month, 1 day, and 1 hour)
the perspective bounces back from earth to heaven but.. within the 2 narratives.. they parallel each other exactly tribulation, Jesus in the Clouds, saints in heaven, wrath of God.. that follows exactly in both parallels.
and fits other scripture like Daniel 12, Isaiah 26, Thessalonians, Olivet Discourse, etc.

I understand. I'm sorry that I cannot get to the forum as often as I'd like, so I'm sure the conversation has gone on. I would like to contribute some other thoughts regarding the rapture:

Immediately after the apostle John receives the messages for the seven churches in Asia, Jesus calls him up in the spirit, to the very throne room of God in heaven:

…I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a [war] trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Rv. 4:1 AMP

Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Rv. 4:2 NKJV

We see then that Revelation is now shifting its perspective to both a heavenward locale and towards future events.

This is one of the major scriptures cited as being symbolic of a ‘rapture’ of the church, whisking it away from the time of the ‘tribulations’ (God’s judgments of wrath), which lie in store for those on earth who have rejected Him. The word ‘rapture’ is not found in the Bible. The first description of this concept has been attributed to an evangelist in the early 1800s, who preached it.

“Rapture’ as it is used in biblical schools of thought, means to be ‘caught up’ or taken away,’ referring to when it is believed that Jesus will return and take God’s children out of harm’s way during the tribulations. How and when this rapture occurs, or not, depends upon who is doing the interpreting. The concept has been formulated from various scriptures. One is drawn from what Jesus said:

“…watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk. 21:34 – 36. ESV

Another is from the Holy Spirit-inspired apostle Paul:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the LORD. 1 Thess. 4:16, 17. NKJV

So, Jesus comes and gathers all of God’s children (both dead and alive) and swoops them up to heaven. Why does He do that?

For God has not destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ… 1 Thess. 5:9 AMP

Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed]… 1 Cor. 15:51 AMP

Returning to the Revelation narrative, Jesus said this to the faithful church (of Philadelphia) in His previous address to the seven churches in Asia:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Rv. 3:10 NKJV

I understand this to mean that the children of God will not suffer the trials because we won’t be living on the earth.

There are three different interpretations regarding when this ‘rapture’ will take place. The first says that Rv. 4:1 – 2 (above) means that it will happen as a hidden event prior to Jesus’ globally public ‘second coming.’ The second interpretation is borne out by those who refer to Dan. 7:25, which they take to mean that the rapture will occur at the midway point of the 7-year tribulation period. Finally, there are others who look at another scripture spoken by Jesus, and believe it to mean that the rapture will occur after the tribulations are complete:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give up its light; the stars will fall from heaven and the power of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all of the tribes of the earth will mourn, and see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one heaven to the other. Mt. 24:29 – 31. NKJV

The important thing to understand, is that these are the best interpretations of the Holy Spirit – induced scriptures that man has to offer. What we can know with certainty, is that God will indeed rescue His children, through Christ, as some specific point in time and separate them from the stiff-necked unbelievers, whose outcome is thankfully not ours…

God bless, and thank you Jamdoc for your thread.

Jamdoc · Mar 19, 2021

chad kincham said:
You can find His return to earth in revelation 11:15

It's deeper than that.

part of why I see 2 narratives rather than 1 chronology or 7 chronologies but rather 2 is because a pattern is established of duplicated events.

1st Narrative
"Beginning of Sorrows" - Revelation 6:1-8
"Great Tribulation" - Revelation 6:9-11
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - Revelation 6:12-14
"and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn" - Revelation 6:15-17
"and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Revelation 7
Following this is the wrath of God which is not really part of Matthew 24, but the wrath of God is Revelation 8-11
Jesus coming back to reclaim the Earth as His Kingdom for the Millennium is Revelation 11:15
and the final judgement, the second resurrection is hinted at in Revelation 11:18

2nd Narrative
"Beginning of Sorrows" - Revelation 12
"Great Tribulation" - Revelation 13
the Return of Jesus in the Clouds - Revelation 14:14
the Rapture - Revelation 14:15-16, followed by Revelation 15
the Wrath of God - Revelation 14:17 all the way through Revelation 18
Jesus coming back to reclaim the Earth as His Kingdom for the Millennium - Revelation 19:11-21
the second resurrection and final judgment - Revelation 20:11-15

So there is 2 times Jesus shows up in the 70th week, once sometime after the midpoint after the Great Tribulations, to rapture His elect and then begin the wrath of God, then a second time at the end of the Wrath of God to reclaim the Earth as His Kingdom.

Jamdoc · Mar 19, 2021

rom8:38 said:
I understand. I'm sorry that I cannot get to the forum as often as I'd like, so I'm sure the conversation has gone on. I would like to contribute some other thoughts regarding the rapture:

Immediately after the apostle John receives the messages for the seven churches in Asia, Jesus calls him up in the spirit, to the very throne room of God in heaven:

…I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a [war] trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” Rv. 4:1 AMP

Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Rv. 4:2 NKJV

We see then that Revelation is now shifting its perspective to both a heavenward locale and towards future events.

This is one of the major scriptures cited as being symbolic of a ‘rapture’ of the church, whisking it away from the time of the ‘tribulations’ (God’s judgments of wrath), which lie in store for those on earth who have rejected Him. The word ‘rapture’ is not found in the Bible. The first description of this concept has been attributed to an evangelist in the early 1800s, who preached it.

Sure John was caught up in spirit to bear witness to the events that'd happen so he could write them down for our profit. But it should not be used as a rapture timing passage.

“Rapture’ as it is used in biblical schools of thought, means to be ‘caught up’ or taken away,’ referring to when it is believed that Jesus will return and take God’s children out of harm’s way during the tribulations.

To hide us from His wrath, not the wrath of Satan or the wrath of Men, there's a distinct difference. The Tribulations are caused by the hands of men at the influence of Satan, not God. An improper interpretation of what the Tribulations is one of the roots of the misunderstanding that is the pretribulation rapture position. They even refer to it as "the 7 year tribulation" which is not biblical.

How and when this rapture occurs, or not, depends upon who is doing the interpreting. The concept has been formulated from various scriptures. One is drawn from what Jesus said:

“…watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. For it will come upon the face of the whole earth. But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk. 21:34 – 36. ESV

As I stated to another poster, in Luke 21 He was saying this, to the same audience that He was saying that they'd be delivered up and killed, and that would have to give testimony (the purpose for Christians going through the Great Tribulations is not "for our purification" as some pretribulationists accuse anyone not pretribulationist of believing, our purification comes from the blood of the lamb not anything we ourselves do or go through, but rather for our testimony and witness that will result in other people being convicted in their spirit and repenting and believing on Christ.).
What Jesus is teaching here is not that everyone who believes on Him will escape through a rapture, otherwise there'd be no talk about how to give testimony and telling people that they'd be killed and reassuring them that they won't really perish their soul will be safe. But rather Jesus is teaching that some Christians will be provided for in the wilderness, and elude capture and execution. Not every Christian will die during the Great Tribulation. some will make it through still alive.

Another is from the Holy Spirit-inspired apostle Paul:

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the LORD. 1 Thess. 4:16, 17. NKJV

Yes this shows that there is a rapture but it does not give timing. It is also very similar to Jesus in Matthew 24:30-31. The book of Matthew was written before the epistles to the Thessalonians so Paul would have been able to read it, a lot of what was in the letters to the Thessalonians evokes Matthew 24 in general.

So, Jesus comes and gathers all of God’s children (both dead and alive) and swoops them up to heaven. Why does He do that?

For God has not destined us to [incur His] wrath [that is, He did not select us to condemn us], but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ… 1 Thess. 5:9 AMP

Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed]… 1 Cor. 15:51 AMP

Because it's necessary to have a different body that can go to heaven because our current ones cannot, and to protect us from HIS wrath, but that doesn't mean protecting us from persecution from Men which is what the Great Tribulation is all about. Persecution by men under the direction of Antichrist. We're not ever told we're promised to be spared of persecution in fact we're promised we will be persecuted. To believe that we're promised to be delivered before any major persecution happens shows that we're too comfortable, living in cushy countries with freedom of religion that we take for granted. It belittles those brothers and sisters who were beheaded by ISIS in recent history, and belittles our Brothers and sisters in Africa, China, and North Korea and Iran that undergo persecution daily. They should be an inspiration to us.

Returning to the Revelation narrative, Jesus said this to the faithful church (of Philadelphia) in His previous address to the seven churches in Asia:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Rv. 3:10 NKJV

I understand this to mean that the children of God will not suffer the trials because we won’t be living on the earth.

You forget the Church of Smyrna, that was persecuted to death, despite Jesus having nothing but encouraging words for them. Why do you think you're the Church of Philadelphia and not the Church of Smyrna, or any of the other 5 churches, there is pride in that belief that your life is represented by a Church that Jesus would have no rebukes against, AND gets the best result with no hardship.

There are three different interpretations regarding when this ‘rapture’ will take place. The first says that Rv. 4:1 – 2 (above) means that it will happen as a hidden event prior to Jesus’ globally public ‘second coming.’ The second interpretation is borne out by those who refer to Dan. 7:25, which they take to mean that the rapture will occur at the midway point of the 7-year tribulation period. Finally, there are others who look at another scripture spoken by Jesus, and believe it to mean that the rapture will occur after the tribulations are complete:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give up its light; the stars will fall from heaven and the power of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all of the tribes of the earth will mourn, and see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one heaven to the other. Mt. 24:29 – 31. NKJV

The important thing to understand, is that these are the best interpretations of the Holy Spirit – induced scriptures that man has to offer. What we can know with certainty, is that God will indeed rescue His children, through Christ, as some specific point in time and separate them from the stiff-necked unbelievers, whose outcome is thankfully not ours…

God bless, and thank you Jamdoc for your thread.

There's more interpretations than that.
1. There's interpretations of no rapture at all, held by the Catholic Church through most of the Medieval Period, they spiritualized all of it and just thought we die and then go to heaven forever. This position is still held by full preterists, historicists, postmillennialists and some amillennialists.
2. There's your pretritublationists like yourself which are really Pre-70th week because you misattribute the entire 70th week as the Great Tribulation when Jesus taught that the Great Tribulation BEGINS after the midpoint.
3. There's "mid tribulationists" which believe that the rapture happens at the midpoint, which is also technically pre tribulation since the tribulation only begins at the midpoint when they'd be gone. This is a dying interpretation.
4. There's pre-wrath which is what I am which holds that there is a distinct difference between the Great Tribulation (which begins at the midpoint of the 70th week) and the Wrath of God (which starts no later than 5 months before the end of the 70th week). We hold that we'll endure the Tribulation and Jesus will come for us to rescue us away from Earth before He begins to pour out His wrath for the end of the 70th week.
5. There's post tribulationists which also usually make the mistake of lumping the entire 70th week as "the 7 year tribulation" and feel that Jesus comes back and we meet Him in the air and then come right back down with Him in Revelation 19, at the end of what Pre wrath call the "Wrath of God", so that position holds that we'd be subjected to the Wrath of God but supernaturally protected from dying from it. This group usually holds that the raptured will never see Heaven. They often only see the "Wrath of God" as being 1 single 24 hour day because of an overly literal interpretation of "the day of the Lord".

chad kincham · Mar 19, 2021

Timtofly said:
That is the end of the return. Just like the week of the Cross was from Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday, the 7th Trumpet is the last week of the Second Coming. Christ will have completed His time on earth starting at the 6th Seal and finalized at the 7th Trumpet.

The 6th Seal is the start like the baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River was the start. This time Jesus spends on earth will be shorter than 3.5 years, because the longer God holds back the Second Coming, the shorter will be the time of the Trumpets and Thunders.

The great trib alone is 3.5 years try revelation 12 for just one example,

Timtofly · Mar 20, 2021

chad kincham said:
The great trib alone is 3.5 years try revelation 12 for just one example,

Satan's 42 months is not the Great Trib. Satan may treat his followers pretty well. Most will be used to his way of life any ways.

The Great Tribulation has been the last 1991 years. Longer than any OT time of trouble.

How do you define your Tribulations? There is no 7 year period, because 5 years are already gone. The final harvest is of unprecedented trouble: For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again! Jesus Christ the Lamb will be here separating the sheep from the goats and the tares from the wheat. That is what the Trumpets and Thunders are for. John tells us how bad it will get, and that is probably just skimming the details.

TribulationSigns · Mar 20, 2021

Hammster said:
It’s not about the rapture. It’s about the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

This is why many people got the word, "generation" all wrong. They believe it either applies to national Israel of 1948/1967 or a lifetime that includes 70AD. They insisted that the generation is LITERAL, but they are wrong with their interpreation. Why? It is because they are foolish, slothful, or lack of God's spirit to discern what Christ actually talks about. Allow me to explain:

From the beginning God has prophesied in a way we might call cryptically rather than flat out saying things in the normal grammatical way. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. For example, you'd be hard pressed to read the Old Testament and find a sentence in Scripture that plainly says, "I will judge Israel, and the kingdom shall be taken from this nation and given to the Gentiles" in plain language. Nevertheless, that prophesy is there in the Old Testament. It was actually concealed, a type of mystery or secret to be revealed later in God's providence. The real question is why?

Proverbs 25:2

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

It is to God's glory that He conceals by speaking in parables or in a way that is esoteric in order to confound the willful, obstinate, slothful and foolish. That's God's Prerogative. Yet once a thing is diligently searched out in Scripture and understood in its own jurisprudence, the truth that was always there is revealed by the Spirit--to God's glory. We rejouce at learning the truth and God is glorified. Indeed, as that Scripture testifies, it is the honor of kings (ultimately Christians) to search out a matter because in doing so, their qualification, the evidence of the Spirit that God has graciously given them, is revealed in their honesty and ultimate discernment in wisdom. In this way of searching out things in Scripture in order to adjudicate, kings more fully understand God's just and righteous administration of the Kingdom.

Proverbs 31:8-9

"Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy."

In other words, search this out, not as referring to people with no physical ability to speak for themselves, but we find that it is for your charity or agape love for the less fortunate-- those appointed to destruction with no one but you to plead their cause. THAT is the honor of kings in revealing truths and making known the mysteries of God's dark (hidden) sayings, cryptic imagery, similitudes and parables. God's people are honorable. That is to say, they are more noble because they have the Spirit of truth that causes then not to trample God's word underfoot, but consider it wisely. The obstinate have no fear in contradicting God if they want to believe something contrary. Because unlike the more noble Bereans (Acts 17:11) they have no love of truth, no spirit that hates lies. For this reason, truth is often hidden from them in plain sight or as seeing through a glass darkly. In parables orlanguage that they can easily twist in order not to receive the truth.

Proverbs 1:6-7

"To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

Attempt to instruct a fool (one ignorant of God's Spirit of truth) the testimony of the truth of Scripture and he will despise what you have to say and argue with it. In actuality, he's really arguing with God. It is BECAUSE the truth is hidden from him! In concealing a thing, God's infinite perfections in word and being is revealed through study and searching. Thus by judging righteously through His mysterious and often cryptic word, the unsearchableness of his ways and providence are found.

You may retort asking, how does this relate to "this generation?" Well, because the truth is that we can accept simple and convoluted explanations that are clearly neither consistent nor Biblically tenable once the Scriptures are searched, or we can search it out for the gold nuggets that are in harmony with all of God's word concerning the generation of vipers and evil. A generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled. The family upon whom all the blood from Abel to Zecharias (Luke 11:51) will be required, which is clearly not simply some people living in a lifespan around 2000 years ago, but of a family that existed from the beginning. It is the FAMILY or GENERATION of SATAN. It the generation of evil!

Matthew 23:2933

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

How is Satan the father of "THIS" generation? A family of the lost? How are they following in his footsteps? Because this is a family, the generation that shall not pass until all be fulfilled. This will not end until Christ returns and put an end to this generation of evil. Selah. Nothing to do with lifespan of certain people.

Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

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