Can Judas be blamed?

Lawrence87 · Mar 19, 2021

Light of the East said:
1. Did any of these players really have a choice? Had the Crucifixion not taken place, then the human race would not have been delivered from death. Was it really possible for Pilate or Judas to back out, saying, “This is not going where I thought it would and I want no further parts of this.”

2. If they couldn’t back out, because the determined will of God, i.e., that He would become man and suffer crucifixion, must be fulfilled, then truly they had no choice. The wheels are set in motion and the goal must be achieved. The fear Pilate felt, the remorse of Judas, none of that mattered because the goal of salvation must be achieved. They are “collateral damage” and not to be concerned about as human beings. They played their part, the role they were given, and now they can be disposed of.

3. Which would mean, in keeping with the hellist narrative, and DBH’s excellent discourse on this regarding creatio ex nihlo, that God created Judas, Pilate, and all others foreknowing what they would do, foreknowing their fall, and ultimately having their utter destruction in hell as the only goal of their existence. They were made to be damned in order to achieve salvation for the lucky few. Judas never had a chance of salvation. Which means the Calvinists are right.

I think it would have been possible for Judas not to have betrayed Christ. Who can speculate on what would have happened if he didn't because he did, but I expect there were plenty of enemies that would have been lining up to fill that role... The ultimate plan would have played out irrespective of by whom it was instigated.

If I want to build a house, and the first contractor I speak to isn't willing to do it, that doesn't mean the house doesn't get built, I just wait until I find someone willing. As it happens Judas did choose to betray and so God foresaw that, but it's easy to see that the same ends could have been achieved if Judas was loyal to Christ until the end, it's not as though Christ had no enemies, people were trying to find an excuse to kill Him all throughout His ministry.

Light of the East · Mar 19, 2021

zoidar said:
Jesus sacrifice is an universal sacrifice, for all, yes, we need to receive though ...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's a done deal. All - Boy, I say, boy.......it's a done deal!!

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Bad translation. Not "many" were made sinners. We ALL were made sinners. And we ALL shall be made righteous,

Every
Single
One

renniks · Mar 19, 2021

Clare73 said:
Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for the sins of many. (Matthew 20:28)

Um, yeah? And he picked Judas and Judas fell away and betrayed him.

SeventyOne · Mar 19, 2021

Light of the East said:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

It's a done deal. All - Boy, I say, boy.......it's a done deal!!

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Bad translation. Not "many" were made sinners. We ALL were made sinners. And we ALL shall be made righteous,

Every
Single
One

The 'many' there is not 'all'. It's the same word as 'many' in these verses, where 'all' would never fit.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

If your assertion was correct that the word means 'all', then 'all' would also go to destruction in the end as well, the exact opposite of your claim.

renniks · Mar 19, 2021

Clare73 said:
You cannot get around God creating people for hell.

For if the Omniscient God knows that someone will choose hell, and he creates him anyway, he is creating him for hell.

Um, no. Not if free will is real.

Albion · Mar 19, 2021

You're right that foreknowledge on God's part doesn't mean fore-ordaining anything.

And that doesn't mean that the idea of predestination is either true or false.

Clare73 · Mar 19, 2021

renniks said:
Um, yeah? And he picked Judas and Judas fell away and betrayed him.

He still approved because he came to give his life.

Clare73 · Mar 19, 2021

renniks said:
Um, no. Not if free will is real.

Has nothing to do with it.

Clare73 · Mar 19, 2021

Albion said:
You're right that foreknowledge on God's part doesn't mean fore-ordaining anything.

Acts 4:28 - They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Acts 2:23 - This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge.

And that doesn't mean that the idea of predestination is either true or false.

BBAS 64 · Mar 19, 2021

Light of the East said:
??? Created for a purpose ??? I assume you mean the purpose of betraying Christ? Is that correct?

Good Day, LOE

umm in case you missed the text from John

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

His purpose was to fulfill scripture, right there in the text. I am sure God had other purposes for him to live out and he did so perfectly.

In Him,

Bill

rturner76 · Mar 19, 2021

timothyu said:
Jesus also used the term satan in reference to Peter. Satan means adversary or adversarial spirit. So if the adversarial spirit entered Judas then Judas would do what was contrary to the will of God. Jesus was meant to die, so Judas, who was more interested in His messiah sending the Romans packing, would do what he believed would save Jesus, not kill Him. The Sanhedrin had no authourity to kill Jesus and it was the Temple guards that arrested Jesus with Judas' help in pointing Him out.

Matthew 27:3
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was filled with remorse...

"The Adversary " I've heard people say when describing the same thing. So Judas may have thought that when Jesus got in trouble, the chariots would fly down from heaven and take him to his rightful place. THey didn't know the plan was much more subtle and a sacrifice rather than a regime change.

Light of the East · Mar 19, 2021

SeventyOne said:
The 'many' there is not 'all'. It's the same word as 'many' in these verses, where 'all' would never fit.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

If your assertion was correct that the word means 'all', then 'all' would also go to destruction in the end as well, the exact opposite of your claim.

I understand what you are saying, however, we know that Greek words can have a variety of meanings depending on the setting. When you look at the context of Romans 5: 18-19, you see something that sets the tone for what the Greek word means.

πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The issue here is that in Romans we know that it wasn't just "the many" of mankind who were made sinners by Adam's fall, it was all of us, each and every one of us was separated from God and inherited the corruption of sin to our natures. Therefore, when it says that in Adam the many were made sinners, it must be speaking of us as individuals rather than collectively.

We always have to look at the context.

Secondly, you have failed to look at the Greek. The word all in Romans 5 is pas, which means all, but the word in Matthew 7 is polys, which means many. Two entirely different Greek words.

Learn to do your homework in a Greek lexicon.

Cis.jd · Mar 19, 2021

com7fy8 said:
By character, Satan is . . . foolish. He supposed he could take down Heaven. Likewise, he probably was capable of thinking Jesus was on his turf so he could defeat Jesus. But Jesus beat the devil while Jesus was the dead Man.

This sounds like the plot of a comic book super villain towards a super hero.

Truth is, the idea of satan possessing and controlling judas is indirectly giving satan credit for the salvation of man. Judas had to betray Jesus in order for Jesus to captured and crucified. satan would have known this. In fact, some theologists believe satan appeared to Jesus in Gethsemane trying to temp Jesus to opt out.

So why would satan control Judas in making the first step towards the goal? Maybe the reality is, satan really did not. Judas just made a mistake. His reasoning, doubts, and anxieties where developed based on his environment or his upbringing, which led him to doubt Jesus or think that Jesus' arrest would force Jesus to defend himself..

what is written in scripture of satan entering into Judas could be a mistranslated metaphor.. they probably didn't have a proper description for someone having some internal conflicts, and just labeled it an opposer. Or the apostles just inserted this commentary based on their own views.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 19, 2021

It’s amazing that none of the others knew who was being spoken of when it was revealed that one would betray Jesus. Matthew 26:22 just an after thought from John? that he was a thief.

GirdYourLoins · Mar 19, 2021

Judas is not alone in this. Another was Pharaoh, God hardened his heart against Moses. Exodus 7:3.

People have this image of God as loving everyone and not being responsible for people not accepting Him but Romans 9:18 seems to be quite clear that God does harden some people.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 19, 2021

GirdYourLoins said:
Judas is not alone in this. Another was Pharaoh, God hardened his heart against Moses. Exodus 7:3.

People have this image of God as loving everyone and not being responsible for people not accepting Him but Romans 9:18 seems to be quite clear that God does harden some people.

Pharoah was not called the son of perdition and Judas was. John 17:12

timothyu · Mar 19, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
not called the son of perdition and Judas was

One might ask why it said that, or perhaps it was added later. Judas merely pointed Him out in a crowd. He did not plot to have Jesus executed, that was on the priests 'heads. Perhaps Judas was made a scapegoat in writings to avoid further condemnation of the priesthood. It's called controlling the narrative.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Mar 19, 2021

timothyu said:
One might ask why it said that, or perhaps it was added later. Judas merely pointed Him out in a crowd. He did not plot to have Jesus executed, that was on the priests 'heads. Perhaps Judas was made a scapegoat in writings to avoid further condemnation of the priesthood. It's called controlling the narrative.

I’m of the belief that if God can take care of the ark with the Philistines He can take care of the bible too, so dismissing any is a cop out too easy to fall into that rut of thinking.

The full context was about sanctification and glorification, being given to the Father because of the Son. Delivering up the Son of man seems to be much the same as treating as common the Holy Spirit of Hebrews 10. He had the inheritance in his pocket by being one of the chosen but sold it for cheap worth. Don’t see much deference in the final analysis.

timothyu · Mar 19, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
He had the inheritance in his pocket by being one of the chosen but sold it for cheap worth.

True enough but to label him as a son of perdition is a little heavy handed considering he played such an insignificant part. The priesthood seems to come out relatively unscathed after Judas, the Romans and the Jews were all blamed. And guess who has gotten to control the narrative all along; priests who were the true sons of perdition yet still run the show.

SeventyOne · Mar 19, 2021

Light of the East said:
I understand what you are saying, however, we know that Greek words can have a variety of meanings depending on the setting. When you look at the context of Romans 5: 18-19, you see something that sets the tone for what the Greek word means.

πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The issue here is that in Romans we know that it wasn't just "the many" of mankind who were made sinners by Adam's fall, it was all of us, each and every one of us was separated from God and inherited the corruption of sin to our natures. Therefore, when it says that in Adam the many were made sinners, it must be speaking of us as individuals rather than collectively.

We always have to look at the context.

Secondly, you have failed to look at the Greek. The word all in Romans 5 is pas, which means all, but the word in Matthew 7 is polys, which means many. Two entirely different Greek words.

Learn to do your homework in a Greek lexicon.

It actually was the 'many' who became sinners. Jesus came as a man and was the exception to the rule. The word 'all' doesn't apply there as it is 'all but one'.

And I'd appreciate it if you never talked down to me again. If you can't do that, just don't bother responding.

Can Judas be blamed?

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