Can Judas be blamed?

rturner76 said:

John 13:27~ As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, "What you are about to do, do quickly."

Here it says "Satan entered into him." Jesus actually told Satan to do his work, not Judas. It seems Judas was possessed no?

Controversial to excuse him but I'm just throwing out the possibility that Judas was not in control of his body at the time.

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Yes and no. Judas is a great example of how God can use evil for good. Based on how the story of Christ's sacrifice went, someone would have had to betray Jesus so he could ultimately be turned over to the authorities. He's wholly responsible for his actions, but Judas was the trigger man for the greatest redemption arc in history.

rturner76 said:

John 13:27~ As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, "What you are about to do, do quickly."

Here it says "Satan entered into him." Jesus actually told Satan to do his work, not Judas. It seems Judas was possessed no?

Controversial to excuse him but I'm just throwing out the possibility that Judas was not in control of his body at the time.

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When bad things happen to you it's your fault.

That's not 100% true but it's true a lot. When bad things happen to you some introspection is in order. What did you do to allow that to happen to you? Often the answer lies in decisions made many years or even decades earlier.

Judas does not get off scot-free.

disciple Clint said:

foreknowledge is not causation

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However, that is the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge:

Isaiah 48:3 - I foretold the former things long ago,
my mouth announced them and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.

Acts 15:38 - Known to the Lord for ages is his work.

Acts 2:23 - This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge is about his work, not man's work.

See Acts 4:28, Isaiah 37:26.

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen.

Silverback said:

then what about Pontius?

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"What I have written, I have written"

rturner76 said:

How could Judas resist his predestination to betray Christ? If you look at it that way, he really didn't have a choice, nor did he choose to hang himself from the guilt if he was predestined to.

Makes me wonder what I'm predestined to do. Is there any way to get the information included in your destiny in advance?

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Cis.jd said:

Well, if satan was in him.. why didn't he make Judas do something that would sabotage the whole crucifixion? Why control Judas to make sure that Jesus accomplishes redeeming man?

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The same answer for both questions is your character, I consider.

How you develop in your character can have a lot to do with what you will do . . . though you don't know the details.

By character, Satan is . . . foolish. He supposed he could take down Heaven. Likewise, he probably was capable of thinking Jesus was on his turf so he could defeat Jesus. But Jesus beat the devil while Jesus was the dead Man.

Meanwhile, if God is changing our character to be more like Jesus > we will do better and better things. I find that I can do better than what I could have planned. This would be because God is blessing us, with His creativity so we do better, even a moment later, than what we might have been planning or wishing, moments before.

So . . . no . . . if you are growing in Jesus > > God will have you do better than you can know now.

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)

Judas became worse enough to do what he did against Christ. Plus, we see how a number of parents became "worse and worse" enough to be able to curse their own children with the shed blood of Jesus >

"And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and on our children.'" (Matthew 27:25)

They didn't see it coming. We in Jesus don't see the good we will be doing.

In case you are concerned about if you are becoming more like Jesus > I consider how we are not in denial about how we can be wrong, plus if we have become more and more interested in loving and forgiving people, this is an indication. Trust God who knows.

"For whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

I now understand that this is the basic of our predestination in Christ: how we are being conformed to the image of Jesus . . . so we love like Him and are pleasing to our Father like Jesus is. So, what we will do is included, but how God is able to change our character is guaranteed, depending on God, not on us.

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, how we become in God's love > "in this world" > is essential. So, knowing Hebrews 12:4-14, I understand we need now to actively seek how our Father is able to correct us. Do not just wonder what our predestination label is, but actively seek and trust our Father to do all He is able to do in our character, so we so share with Him.

Jamdoc said:

another way of looking at it, because Jesus died for the sins of everyone who has ever, and will ever exist, we are all just as guilty of betraying the Christ as Judas, we're complicit in the murder of the Son of God just as he was, because we also sinned that gave need of His blood being spilled on our behalf.

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I do believe that if we had a view of our sins as God views our sins, we would realize we are every bit as worthy of condemnation as we believe Judas is. We would beg for mercy on him because we would be by extension begging for our own salvation. It is a lack of self-awareness, coupled with a nice touch of pride (being in that special and privileged group, as DBH says, who somehow have merited to be saved) that keeps hellists from weeping over Judas.

Some have suggested that Judas had a motive of forcing Christ’s hand, that when push came to shove, Christ would exert His power and authority as the Messiah and bring in the Kingdom. In this theory, it was not malice, but theological ignorance of all that the Messiah had come to accomplish, which pushed Judas to act, hoping for a response from his Master.

All that notwithstanding, knowing the love of God as I do, having been delivered from a horrendous life of sin, every time I sin, join the crowd, screaming at Pilate for His crucifixion. I spit on His lovely face, bury the thorns in His noble brow, whip Him up the Via Dolorosa, drive the nails in to Him, and ultimately thrust the spear in His side. Is this any less than Judas simply saying, “Boys, I know where to find Him if you cross my palms with silver.” If Judas is cut off from Christ and the love of God for this sin, even as horrendous as this betrayal is, then of what assurance to any of us have that we will not be treated in the same manner for our own many betrayals?

We had better hope that Judas will receive mercy. The suggestion that his sin is unforgivable is the suggestion that perhaps mine and yours may also be beyond reconciliation.

Until you see yourself capable of holding thirty pieces of silver, you do not really understand your own sin.

Lawrence87 said:

He gave Satan access, he doesn't have the authority to enter without us granting access. He may be deceitful to do so, but if Judas had turned to God and dismissed Satan at the moment he tried to enter him then it wouldn't have happened.

Nor was Judas's free will violated because if he wasn't going to betray Christ of his own volition then someone else would have.

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1. Did any of these players really have a choice? Had the Crucifixion not taken place, then the human race would not have been delivered from death. Was it really possible for Pilate or Judas to back out, saying, “This is not going where I thought it would and I want no further parts of this.”

2. If they couldn’t back out, because the determined will of God, i.e., that He would become man and suffer crucifixion, must be fulfilled, then truly they had no choice. The wheels are set in motion and the goal must be achieved. The fear Pilate felt, the remorse of Judas, none of that mattered because the goal of salvation must be achieved. They are “collateral damage” and not to be concerned about as human beings. They played their part, the role they were given, and now they can be disposed of.

3. Which would mean, in keeping with the hellist narrative, and DBH’s excellent discourse on this regarding creatio ex nihlo, that God created Judas, Pilate, and all others foreknowing what they would do, foreknowing their fall, and ultimately having their utter destruction in hell as the only goal of their existence. They were made to be damned in order to achieve salvation for the lucky few. Judas never had a chance of salvation. Which means the Calvinists are right.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Timothy

No he was serving the purpose for which he was created by the creator, so that Scripture would be fulfilled:

oh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John Gill notes: but the son of perdition; Judas, a child of Satan, whose name is Apollyon the destroyer, who was now about to betray his Lord and master; and was one that was appointed to eternal ruin and destruction, of which he was justly deserving; and which is no instance of the apostasy of saints, since though he was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him:

He was not elected or predestined to be saved totally different, he was created for a purpose.

In HIm,

Bill

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??? Created for a purpose ??? I assume you mean the purpose of betraying Christ? Is that correct?

rturner76 said:

So he didn't have the full understanding of who Christ was

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None of them did.

Clare73 said:

You cannot get around God creating people for hell.

For if the Omniscient God knows that someone will choose hell, and he creates him anyway, he is creating him for hell.

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Do you EVER stop and think about what you are saying? EVER????

If God, who had no need to create, lacking nothing in His being, created billions of people for the express purpose of them suffering forever.....what does that make Him? Is that how love acts???

zoidar said:

Yes, for whoever receives him.

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NOPE.

Scripture says "FOR ALL"

Clare73 said:

Except for Romans 9:10-24.

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Romans is about national Israel and St. Paul's grief-stricken heart over their coming destruction. Some were elect to being saved from the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, but the majority would die within its walls. Over 1 million Jews died within the walls of Jerusalem when it was destroyed and the Temple razed.

QUOTE="Silverback, The doctrine of unconditional election, builds on that of total depravity, which states all of humanity is already dead in their sin at birth, and deserving of only Gods wrath and punishment.

Which is a disgraceful and profoundly heretical view of mankind, not based on anything that the Early Fathers of the Church taught. This is St. Augustine's warped anthropology, which grew into a poisonous theological plant adapted by Roman Catholicism and then Protestantism. Mankind is not totally depraved. We are sick with sin and need to be healed.

Unconditional election states that before the foundation of the world, God chose those he would bring to faith in Christ, and ultimately save. This was an act of grace, and not because of anything special about that person. How God came to elect some, and not others is not revealed to us. So, some people are passed by and receive justice, others are chosen and receive mercy, but no one receives injustice.

Think of what you just said. To create sentient human beings, knowing they would fall, and to have no remedy for that fall, but instead to be willing to allow them to suffer horrible torments forever is not the action of love. You hellists seem to forget that God IS love. Love would NEVER do such a thing. This is why, when Lutheran emissaries came to Constantinople after the Protestant Reformation was under way, the Orthodox listened intently for a while (being that they BOTH despised Roman Catholicism) then realized that Lutheranism would never be compatible with the teachings of the True Church, and bid them to leave.

If our salvation depends on a decision we make to accept Christ as savior, then its probable that know one would make that decision, in which case Christ died for nothing.

Our salvation is a done deal. Romans 5:18-19 states that Christ died FOR ALL. Perhaps you should go back and read the entire chapter until it sinks in. FOR ALL.

Additionally, God owes you nothing, and you deserve nothing. Gods gracious act of election ensures some are saved.

You have no idea of what love really is. I suggest you meditate on what love is and the fact that God IS love.

The names of those God has chosen were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. So either God chose them unconditionally by his own counsel, or he looked down the tunnel of time and chose the people who will respond to the gospel message, and elected them on that basis. Either way, God chose you, because Faith is a gift, some receive it, others do not.

Salvation was a done deal before the world was created. Sorry, but that's how it is.

No, that's not how it is. I suggest you find a nice quality ale and a fine cigar (or pipe of tobacco if that's your choice) and spend time reading and meditating on what the first Christians believed. I became Catholic when I realized, after reading the Early Fathers, that if I could somehow enter a time machine and go back to the second century and present my Calvinist form of Christianity, the Christians of that day would have howled with laughter, then asked me "Are you really serious in believing this JUNK?"

rturner76 said:

John 13:27~ As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, "What you are about to do, do quickly."

Here it says "Satan entered into him." Jesus actually told Satan to do his work, not Judas. It seems Judas was possessed no?

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Jesus also used the term satan in reference to Peter. Satan means adversary or adversarial spirit. So if the adversarial spirit entered Judas then Judas would do what was contrary to the will of God. Jesus was meant to die, so Judas, who was more interested in His messiah sending the Romans packing, would do what he believed would save Jesus, not kill Him. The Sanhedrin had no authourity to kill Jesus and it was the Temple guards that arrested Jesus with Judas' help in pointing Him out.

Matthew 27:3
When Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was filled with remorse...

Light of the East said:

NOPE.

Scripture says "FOR ALL"

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Jesus sacrifice is an universal sacrifice, for all, yes, we need to receive though ...

rturner76 said:

I have trust issues........

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Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. . .now it's burned.

Clare73 said:

You cannot get around God creating people for hell.

For if the Omniscient God knows that someone will choose hell, and he creates him anyway, he is, in effect, creating him for hell.

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Light of the East said:

Do you EVER stop and think about what you are saying? EVER????

If God, who had no need to create, lacking nothing in His being, created billions of people for the express purpose of them suffering forever.....what does that make Him? Is that how love acts???

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Your issue is with logic. It falls to you to refute the logic.

Light of the East said:

Romans is about national Israel and St. Paul's grief-stricken heart over their coming destruction.

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Not in Romans 9:10-24. . .read it again.

Romans is about presenting the full gospel.

Some were elect to being saved from the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, but the majority would die within its walls. Over 1 million Jews died within the walls of Jerusalem when it was destroyed and the Temple razed.

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