Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

BobRyan said:

Thanks for the opportunity for "do over"



Ok - that part of Matt 23 is pointing out that there is a very tight connection between saints and sinners in this life and simply uprooting the lost from the saved would risk losing the saved. So for example Christ could not simply ban Judas because the disciples would not understand - and God did not simply kill Lucifer because good angels would not understand.

So in many cases the saints and the sinners are fish in the same pond and one cannot simply "delete the sinners" without causing harm to the saints. So for example if your sister is a saint but one of your brothers is the known-to-God-sinner - God would do damage to your family by simply deleting that brother and even the church would have to be very careful about taking any action against that brother. So then often times it is the situation of all living together and letting things sort out, let both manifest their fruit. (By their fruit you shall know them Matt 7, is a rule that Christ said would be accurate)

Now that is not to say there are not 1 Cor 5 cases where church discipline has to happen in extreme cases. But "in general" the Matt 13 example serves as a good warning to the group about how far you can go.

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In the parable the point comes where there is the end of the world and the wicked are destroyed while the saints are saved. A process exists in God's kingdom where what He knows to be the case is so fully conveyed to non-God beings like angels (for example) that even they can be sent to take action and separate saints from sinners at the harvest.

So for example in Matt 24 - the angels are sent out
1 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other

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Thank you. Now, this is an example of a great controversy like theme, including angels knowing who to gather. Of course folks can debate whether that involves an IJ or not. For instance, James White thought it didn't, until he thought it did.

So if they gather them from one end of the sky to the other does this involve all people in the world?

Albion said:

The Bible exists. We all know what it is. But if it takes Ellen G. White or Emanuel Swedenborg or some Mormon leader to tell us that his or her vision or prophesy, etc. has revealed the meaning of some part of the Bible...and then we affirm it as so...that is no different, really, from just believing anything out of the mouth of that leader who says it came from God.

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I think this statement may show some instances of that:

Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, “We can do nothing more,” the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me. 1SM 206.4


During this whole time I could not understand the reasoning of the brethren. My mind was locked, as it were, and I could not comprehend the meaning of the scriptures we were studying. This was one of the greatest sorrows of my life. I was in this condition of mind until all the principal points of our faith were made clear to our minds, in harmony with the Word of God. The brethren knew that when not in vision, I could not understand these matters, and they accepted as light direct from heaven the revelations given. 1SM 207.1


For two or three years my mind continued to be locked to an understanding of the Scriptures. In the course of our labors, my husband and I visited Father Andrews, who was suffering intensely with inflammatory rheumatism. We prayed for him. I laid my hands on his head, and said, “Father Andrews, the Lord Jesus maketh thee whole.” He was healed instantly. He got up, and walked about the room, praising God, and saying, “I never saw it on this wise before. Angels of God are in this room.” The glory of the Lord was revealed. Light seemed to shine all through the house, and an angel's hand was laid upon my head. From that time to this I have been able to understand the Word of God. 1SM 207.2

BobRyan said:

And never mentions the 3rd commandment , and never mentions "Love God with all your heart".

But he did provide that Eph 6:1-2 reference to the entire unit of TEN - where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment.

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Paul simply references "the first commandment with a promise" here and not the entire TEN.

And did not mention "do not take God's name in vain" there either. In fact he did not mention the first four commandments at all in Matt 19, nor did he mention "Love God with all your heart" in Matt 19.

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So your unit of TEN argument then is moot.

The exact same list is given by Paul in Rom 13.

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The entire 10 is not listed in Romans 13 either.

No wonder then that leading scholarship in almost every Christian denomination on planet Earth agrees that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and apply to all mankind -- so that would include this list:

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

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There are multiple Christian denominations who do not agree that all 10 commandments are written on the heart under the new covenant. You call the Catholic Catechism leading scholarship? SDA's continuously criticize the Catholic Church and claim that the papacy transferred sabbath observance to Sunday during the dark ages. Prophet Ellen White saw in vision that the Pope changed the day of worship to Sunday:

"I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws."

Mark of the Beast

You have free will and can ignore all the detail and "go it alone" just as you wish. My point that they all argue for "all TEN" as included in the New Covenant and applicable to all mankind - is irrefutable.

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Nice sales pitch, yet I'm not alone by a long shot and the truth remains that the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3.

Danthemailman said:

Paul simply references "the first commandment with a promise" here and not the entire TEN.

So your unit of TEN argument then is moot.

The entire 10 is not listed in Romans 13 either.

There are multiple Christian denominations who do not agree that all 10 commandments are written on the heart under the new covenant. You call the Catholic Catechism leading scholarship? SDA's continuously criticize the Catholic Church and claim that the papacy transferred sabbath observance to Sunday during the dark ages. Prophet Ellen White saw in vision that the Pope changed the day of worship to Sunday:

"I saw that God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day of the week; for he was to change times and laws."

Mark of the Beast

Nice sales pitch, yet I'm not alone by a long shot and the truth remains that the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3.

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So you think just nine of the Ten Commandments are still applicable and the one
commandment we should forget is the only one God started with REMEMBER? I don’t think so.

The Sabbath was still a commandment in the New Testament after Jesus rose
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Jesus kept all of God’s commandments and asked us to as well.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but our Fathers holy Sabbath is the seventh day and He said it is a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 which is why it will never go away. Isaiah 66:23 God bless

BobRyan said:

NEW Covenant:

Jer 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord: “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”

All Bible scholars agree with the exegetically correct statement that Jeremiah and his readers understood the LAW of God to include the TEN commands of Sinai spoken directly by God Himself.

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Not all Bible scholars and the 10 commands of Sinai written in stone with all the rules and regulations and death penalties attached are old covenant. 2 Corinthians 6:3 - who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

This is irrefutable.

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Only in your mind.

So while Jer 31 does not single out "do not take God's name in vain" -- yet that command is still being affirmed in Jer 31.

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1 Timothy 6:1 - Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. *To blaspheme the name of God is to take God's name in vain, so the 3rd commandment is reiterated under the new covenant, but not the 4th. (Colossians 2:16-17)

This too - is irrefutable.

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Your arguments for sabbath keeping under the old law being transferred to the new covenant are refutable.

Is 66:23 says that for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - and Paul knew it.

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In Isaiah 66:23, we simply learn that from month to month and from week to week, God’s people will worship Him, in contrast with keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law. In the new heaven and the new earth, we read there will have no need of the sun or moon, there will be no night there, but one perpetual day and the glory of God will illuminate it. (Revelation 21:23-25) How then could there be a cycle of seven days that would allow for literally keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law? The Isaiah passage simply means that God’s people will perpetually worship Him in contrast to keeping the weekly sabbath day under the law.

Furthermore, if one insists on weekly sabbath observances based on Isaiah 66:23, then one also needs to observe new moons as well. Yet from what I hear, sabbatarians don’t observe new moons, which is inconsistent. New moons require night, hence sabbatarians have night in heaven, yet there is no day and night cycles in heaven. You cannot have "new moon to new moon" or "sabbath days" without day and night, so your argument is moot.

Will there be Levitical priests in the new heaven? If Isaiah 66:23 teaches that we will keep the weekly sabbath day in the new heaven, then it also teaches in Isaiah 66:21 that the Levitical priests will be in the new heaven, because it is also mentioned. What happened to the Levitical priesthood under the new covenant terms? Priesthood changed so did the law. Hebrews 7:12 - For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. *The old and new covenants do not mix.”

This too - is irrefutable.

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I just refuted your argument, which was based on eisegesis.

Acts 18:4 says that Paul engaged in gospel preaching "Every Sabbath" to BOTH gentiles AND Jews in the synagogue - so that means that even believers were in attendance since it was "Every Sabbath" and many were accepting his gospel message.

there is "no" every week-day-1 gospel preaching mentioned in the entire Bible.

This too - is irrefutable.

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More eisegesis on your part. These were not Christians having a weekly church service here but Jews and proselytes who Paul preached the gospel to. The Bible says in Acts 14:1, that they BECAME believers proving Paul's work there was evangelism and not sabbath worship. The Greeks were Jewish converts to Judaism known as proselytes. They practiced the law of Moses and kept the sabbath. The Gentiles that were in the synagogue along with the Jews were proselytes.

Acts 13:43 "Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 14:1 "In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks."

Acts 17:4 "And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.“

Acts 18:4 "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

And it is not just SDAs that notice this Bible detail

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There are others who error as well.

Hence in Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

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Hebrews 4:9 - So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (NASB) Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" here is used no where else in the Bible! Amazing that sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly sabbath day" under the law when it is never used anywhere else in the Bible!

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary points out:

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)

SermonIndex.net Audio Sermons - Sermon Index

"the saint keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

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John did not say here the 10 commandments under the law.

As Paul said "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 in the moral law of God included in "the Commandments of God" - is the 5th commandment.

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Paul did not say the 10 commandments under the law. The Greek word for "commandments" in Revelation 14:12 is {entole} which means "an order, command, charge, precept, injunction." The same word is used repeatedly in the writings of John. According to John, the number one commandment {entolae} of Jesus to the Apostles was not Sabbath keeping, but for them to love one another: A new commandment {entolae} I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. (John 13:34) This is my commandment {entolae}, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

1 John 3:21 - Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

imge said:

So you think just nine of the Ten Commandments are still applicable and the one commandment we should forget is the only one God started with REMEMBER? I don’t think so.

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When God said, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" in Exodus 20. who was He addressing? Hint: Verse 2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The Word of God makes it clear that sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." (Exodus 31:16-17)

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." (Deuteronomy 5:15).

The Sabbath was still a commandment in the New Testament after Jesus rose
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

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Of course they did. They were Jews still following the law at this point. It took time for the transition to become complete for these Mosaic law following Jews.

Jesus kept all of God’s commandments and asked us to as well.

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Of course Jesus kept all 10 commandments. Jesus was born under the law. (Galatians 4:4) Where did Jesus command the Church/the body of Christ to keep the sabbath day? What about Paul?

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but our Fathers holy Sabbath is the seventh day and He said it is a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 which is why it will never go away. Isaiah 66:23 God bless

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Covenant with who? Are you an Israelite under the law in the old covenant? I didn't think so. In regards to Isaiah 66:23, see post #405.

BobRyan said:

My specific claim was that the RCC affirms the TEN as included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant - you do not provide a Catholic Website denying that specific point...

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That's not what I'm hearing from the Catholic Answers website or the early Church Fathers, whom Catholics often cite and once again:

Some religious organizations (Seventh-day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church “changed” the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished.

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

Danthemailman said:

When God said, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy" in Exodus 20. who was He addressing? Hint: Verse 2 - I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

The Word of God makes it clear that sabbath observance was a sign between God and Israel: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested." (Exodus 31:16-17)

In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the Ten Commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 12–14, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day." (Deuteronomy 5:15).

Of course they did. They were Jews still following the law at this point. It took time for the transition to become complete for these Mosaic law following Jews.

Of course Jesus kept all 10 commandments. Jesus was born under the law. (Galatians 4:4) Where did Jesus command the Church/the body of Christ to keep the sabbath day? What about Paul?

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Covenant with who? Are you an Israelite under the law in the old covenant? I didn't think so. In regards to Isaiah 66:23, see post #405.

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Your confusing Deuteronomy 5:15 with Exodus 20. Exodus 20 God is speaking
Deuteronomy 5 is Moses speaking.

God spoke and wrote the Ten Commandments and Moses repeated them to the Israelites in Deuteronomy hence slightly different language.

God's LAW was written and made by God alone on two tables of stone and spoken by God Himself to His people. It is an everlasting covenant. Psalms 111:7-9

Just the like the New Covenant was made with Israel Hebrews 8:8 He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

BobRyan said:

also not true.

Ex 20:8-11 rest
Lev 23:3 Holy Convocation -- see also Is 66:23
Is 58:13 refrain from all secular activity

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So why is it then that when I ask sabbatarians what keeping the day entails I either get no answer or different answers? Keeping the sabbath day under the old covenant of law entailed much more than simply resting from activity. To "keep the sabbath" as it was required under the old covenant of law involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

There were burnt offerings which went along with sabbath day observances. (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) There no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath. (Exodus 16:29) No trading. (Amos 8:5) No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). *These were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1)

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it? If the sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

So who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? What about the government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

Danthemailman said:

So why is it then that when I ask sabbatarians what keeping the day entails I either get no answer or different answers? Keeping the sabbath day under the old covenant of law entailed much more than simply resting from activity. To "keep the sabbath" as it was required under the old covenant of law involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

There were burnt offerings which went along with sabbath day observances. (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13) There no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath. (Exodus 35:3) Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath. (Exodus 16:29) No trading. (Amos 8:5) No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19). *These were commanded by God to Israel. (Exodus 35:1)

If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect, then why don't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it? If the sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.

So who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? What about the government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

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The wages of sin is death according to scripture. Burnt offerings is not part of Exodus 20. Have you ever kindled a fire? It’s a lot of work, which is why God asked to do that on Friday on the preparation day.

Sabbath is meant to be a blessing and it is really hard for those who choose not to keep it to understand. They tend to be more focused on the things you can’t do instead of the things you should be doing which is having a day of communion with God on His blessed seventh day Sabbath that He asked us to remember and keep holy.

imge said:

Your confusing Deuteronomy 5:15 with Exodus 20. Exodus 20 God is speaking
Deuteronomy 5 is Moses speaking.

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No confusion. In Exodus 20, God is speaking directly to the Israelites. In Deuteronomy 5, Moses is speaking directly to the Israelites, yet that doesn't change the fact that the book of Deuteronomy is the Word of God.

God spoke and wrote the Ten Commandments and Moses repeated them to the Israelites in Deuteronomy hence slightly different language.

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And?

God's LAW was written and made by God alone on two tables of stone and spoken by God Himself to His people. It is an everlasting covenant. Psalms 111:7-9

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Who was the old covenant between? God and the Israelites.

Just the like the New Covenant was made with Israel Hebrews 8:8 He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

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The new covenant is different from the old covenant. Hebrews 8:13 - In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

imge said:

The wages of sin is death according to scripture.

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But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord according to scripture as well (Romans 6:23) and not through sabbath keeping.

Burnt offerings is not part of Exodus 20. Have you ever kindled a fire? It’s a lot of work, which is why God asked to do that on Friday on the preparation day.

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Yet it is part of the old covenant of law and attached to sabbath keeping under the old covenant.

Sabbath is meant to be a blessing and it is really hard for those who choose not to keep it to understand. They tend to be more focused on the things you can’t do instead of the things you should be doing which is having a day of communion with God on His blessed seventh day Sabbath that He asked us to remember and keep holy.

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Show me under the new covenant where I am commanded to keep the sabbath day and exactly how I am to keep it. Did God ask the Church, the body of Christ to keep the sabbath day in Exodus 20 or the Israelites? Who was brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery in Exodus 20:2?

The word "Sabbath" first appears in Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning."

Who was God speaking to here? The Church, the body of Christ under the new covenant or the Israelites under the old covenant?

Danthemailman said:

No confusion. In Exodus 20, God is speaking directly to the Israelites. In Deuteronomy 5, Moses is speaking directly to the Israelites, yet that doesn't change the fact that the book of Deuteronomy is the Word of God.

And?

Who was the old covenant between? God and the Israelites.

The new covenant is different from the old covenant. Hebrews 8:13 - In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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You can’t use the argument that the first covenant was for the Israelites only and say you’re only under the second when He said it was made with the same people. The second covenant (agreement) is updated from the first covenant (agreement). God said He will write His laws (they did not go away, nor did He say nine of the ten laws, if there was a change this was the time for God to say so) His laws means all and are written in our hearts and minds in the second covenant. Same laws, new promises. His laws did not go away and are still binding. It’s still a sin to lie, covet, worship other gods and not keep His Sabbath holy. Again, you’re free to believe as you wish, but it doesn’t change that God’s laws are written in our hearts and minds which should show in our hearts and through our actions.

Grace is Gods gift though our faith, but its not a license to sin. We keep Gods laws because we are saved, not to be saved.

God bless.

tall73 said:

Bob didn't exactly answer the question asked, but rather asked you to speculate on the mindset of the person asking.

It may be that forum rules make it difficult for Bob to answer your question directly. However, we can look at Ellen White's answer on the general issue, and Bob already said he considers her a prophet. So that carries more weight in outlining the Adventist view than Bob.

Satan is the sharpest critic that the world has ever known, and he works to hinder and pervert truth. He has induced men to strive to change the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Under his dictation the first day of the week has been adopted by the Christian world as the Sabbath. He has used his masterly mind to influence other men to adopt the same views that he himself entertains. But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

He designed that man should worship him upon that day, and engage in no secular pursuits. No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

Here the discourse was broken in upon by questions from one who had kept the Sabbath a short time, but who had recently given it up. Rising in the congregation, he said, "This Sabbath question has been a great trouble to me during the last year, and now I would like to ask a question: Is the observance of the Sabbath necessary to my salvation? Answer, yes or no." I answered promptly, This is an important question, and demands something more full than yes or no. All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light. But none will be held accountable for light which they have never received. {HS 234.3}

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You hit the nail on the head!

imge said:

You can’t use the argument that the first covenant was for the Israelites only and say you’re only under the second when He said it was made with the same people. The second covenant (agreement) is updated from the first covenant (agreement). God said He will write His laws (they did not go away, nor did He say nine of the ten laws, if there was a change this was the time for God to say so) His laws means all and are written in our hearts and minds in the second covenant. Same laws, new promises. His laws did not go away and are still binding. It’s still a sin to lie, covet, worship other gods and not keep His Sabbath holy. Again, you’re free to believe as you wish, but it doesn’t change that God’s laws are written in our hearts and minds which should show in our hearts and through our actions.
Grace is Gods gift though our faith, but its not a license to sin. We keeps Gods laws because we are saved, not to be saved. God bless

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I never said that faith is a license to sin. Here is a statement that a SDA once made to me which does not sound like he meant that we keep God's laws because we are saved, but are very much involved with being saved. He even "includes" the 10 commandments in the Gospel, which results in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Are you under the old covenant of law or the new covenant? The new covenant was made with the same people BUT are Gentiles Christians excluded? 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 3:6 - that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. *We did not see that in the old covenant.

Once again, the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3.

Danthemailman said:

I never said that faith is a license to sin. Here is a statement that a SDA once made to me which does not sound like he meant that we keep God's laws because we are saved, but are very much involved with being saved. He even "includes" the 10 commandments in the Gospel, which results in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works."

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Are you under the old covenant of law or the new covenant? The new covenant was made with the same people BUT are Gentiles Christians excluded? 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Ephesians 3:6 - that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel. *We did not see that in the old covenant.

Once again, the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12
4. Keep the sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3.

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There are over 20 million SDA members, I like to use my references from the Bible.

Yes, we are under the New Covenant, just like everyone was under the first one as well.

There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. Colossians 2:16-17 is referring to the Sabbath(s) Festival not the seventh day Sabbath that God said was a perpetual covenant. If you read those scriptures in context it is about food and drink and nothing about the seventh day Sabbath that is a memorial of God’s creation Genesis 2:3 or the 4th commandment Exodus 20:8-11. I can see how one could make this error if looking for a way to void out the 4th commandment. God wrote all His laws in the new covenant, He never said only nine carried over. Would be quite contradictory that we are told His covenant is everlasting and that He asked us to REMEMBER His Holy Sabbath if He indented for us to forget.

imge said:

There are over 20 million SDA members, I like to use my references from the Bible.

Yes, we are under the New Covenant, just like everyone was under the first one as well.

There is more than one Sabbath in the Bible. Colossians 2:16-17 is referring to the Sabbath Festival (s) not the seventh day Sabbath that God said was a perpetual covenant. If you read those scriptures in context it is about food a drink and nothing about the seventh day Sabbath that is a memorial of God’s creation Genesis 2:3. I can see how one could make this error if looking for a way to void out the 4th commandment. God wrote all His laws in the new covenant, He never said only nine carried over. Would be quite contradictory that we re told His covenant is everlasting and He asked us to REMEMBER if He indented for us to forget.

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I already explained that Colossians 2:16-17 includes the weekly sabbath day in posts #315 and #319. It's not about voiding out the 4th commandment per say. It's about it being fulfilled in Christ. We find our "sabbatismos" rest in Christ (the substance) and not in keeping the weekly sabbath day (the shadow) under the law. (Hebrews 4:9-10)

Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

tall73 said:

Thank you. Now, this is an example of a great controversy like theme, including angels knowing who to gather. Of course folks can debate whether that involves an IJ or not. For instance, James White thought it didn't, until he thought it did.

So if they gather them from one end of the sky to the other does this involve all people in the world?

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Agreed on the IJ theme - because "the details" on how they know is worked out for us in the rules/criteria we see explained in scripture in places like Romans 2:4-16 and Ezek 18. -- which looks like IJ to me.

And of course the Matt 24 "one end of the sky to the other" is all the saints of all time all over the world.

But as Job 1 and 2 show -- God does not just make "declarative statements" and then add "trust me if you had looked at the details you would know I am right" - rather he hands out the rules of Rom 2:4-16 and Ezek 18 for all to see and then has the big "sit down" of Daniel 7 for angels in heaven to see the books opened and the content of those books of record and then "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" as we see in Dan 7:22 NASB.

This is where the "reward for the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil" statement of 2 Cor 5:10 gets fleshed out. Rom 6:23 says the reward for bad deeds is the second death of Rev 20. Rev 22 says that when He comes His "reward is with him" - it will already have been determined by then.

What is more Rev 15:8 points to the fact that all of Christ's work in the sanctuary in heaven ends prior to the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

Danthemailman said:

I already explained that Colossians 2:16-17 includes the weekly sabbath day in posts #315 and #319. It's not about voiding out the 4th commandment per say. It's about it being fulfilled in Christ. We find our "sabbatismos" rest in Christ (the substance) and not in keeping the weekly sabbath day (the shadow) under the law. (Hebrews 4:9-10)

Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

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Long before Moses wrote the Ten Commandments onto scrolls, the Bible says, "Abraham obeyed my laws and statutes and commandments" Genesis 26:5.

You do not enter into Christ’s rest by disobeying God’s laws. The verse you quoted in Hebrews Hebrews 4:9-10 means the Sabbath still remains.

You’re welcome to believe as you wish. It’s something I would want to be sure though considering there are a lot of promises for those who obey God’s laws which includes all ten.

Danthemailman said:

I never said that faith is a license to sin. Here is a statement that a SDA once made to me which does not sound like he meant that we keep God's laws because we are saved,

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Anecdotal "one person once said to me..." is very different from "such and such denomination has this specific set of beliefs for the entire denomination"

Danthemailman said:

Once again, the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

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1. There is no "the nine commandments" statement in all of scripture.
2. There is a reference to the entire unit of TEN in Eph 6:1-2 where we see in that unit of TEN the 5th commandment "is the first commandment with a promise".
3. There is "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
4. There is "every Sabbath" Acts 18:4 Gospel preaching to both gentiles and Jews.
5. There is "to break one is to break them all" in James 2
6. There is "direct quote" from the Sabbath Commandment in both Rev 14:7 and also the book of Acts.
7. There is "All scripture... to be used for doctrine" in 2 Tim 3:16
8. There is Jesus teaching "from all the scriptures" in Luke 24:27
9. There is Commandment of God = Moses said = Word of God in Mark 7:6-13

And there is the fact that the command "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain" is not quoted from at all in 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7; James 5:12

Even though that Ex 20:7 commandment is still applicable - yet it is never quoted from in all of the NT - which means .... "nothing" at all against keeping it.