God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Guojing · Mar 18, 2021

Butterball1 said:
I have never become sin (noun) but did become a sinner (verb).

Let's take Romans 5:12-13 literally

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How did sin get imputed into the world and us, according to Paul?

Guojing · Mar 18, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Huh????

You have never heard of people who believed the earth is flat?

Root of Jesse · Mar 18, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Right, what you heard was a doctrine called Penal Substitutionary Atonement and it was invented by Anselm of Canterbury based on a misinterpretation of St. Augustine and ignorance of the Greek fathers. It is nonsense and it turns people off of Christianity. It is also expressed here in a manner that is Nestorian or Arian, because Jesus Christ IS God (John 1:1-18), the second person of the Holy Trinity, for our faith is one God in three persons. The sermon should have at least said “God the Father,” so as to avoid suggesting that Jesus Christ was not God or that His humanity and divinity were separated.

And according to Chalcedonian Christology, Jesus Christ has two essences, one human and one divine, united in one hypostasis, thus connecting humanity with God via His incarnation. This is why we can say that God sacrificed Himself for us to restore our fallen human image and recreate it in his own, and trample down death by death. And this is why the Psalm “Let God Arise” is commonly recited on Easter.

I learn so much from you.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 18, 2021

bling said:
Not by my logic. God Loves us and can forgiveness us without being wrathful toward us.

Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. Already made my case with the Bible. One either believes the verses I put forth or they don’t believe them.

Root of Jesse · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Romans 5:9).

“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (Isaiah 53:10).

This is referring to how God the Father was pleased to bruise the Son and so as to make Him an offering for sin on our behalf (No doubt because it would save us).

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:5).

1 Peter 2:24 says,
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:” (Galatians 3:13).

This short animated music video seems to embody the idea well.

I disagree, and my Church of 2000 years disagrees, with what you're implying that this means.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 18, 2021

Am enjoying discussing these matters so thank you everyone.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 18, 2021

Nathan@work said:
Hmmmm, I think God is definitely pleased with obedience, but it's not like it's a two bucket system.

In other words, you don't put your good/obedient things in one bucket, and then bad/disobedient things in another bucket - then see which one is heavier. Not that you are implying that, but sometimes people think that.

David did indeed seek God's heart, but that does not mean he was more obedient than someone else and that is why God was so pleased with Him.

God is pleased to go after the ones that do not even seek Him. He will leave the 99 to go after the one that is wondering away.

I understand why you are talking about those who think there is a kind of weighing scale comparing good deeds and bad deeds and that is off and I agree with you. I have heard there are those who think like this.

I would ask you to consider the verse where Jesus said that those who keep His commandments or teachings the Father will love. He actually said that they will come and make their home in those who live like this. This is what it means to seek His heart. I cannot but see that this means that those who obey God please Him. Surely any parent can tell you that the child who is more obedient than the naughty child pleases them more. The love is the same but with one a parent is pleased and with the other a parent is displeased and yes, obedience is the key.

The parable of the sheep does not seem to be God's plan in the matters of men, I think. I mean when we consider the prodigal son, the father did nothing at all to pursue the son. And this was the father, a real picture of God. In real life the 70 left following Jesus and he did not even call them to come back and he will explain himself. He let all 70 walk away. It is likely that He pursues or calls all men at one point or another. But that calling is limited to within respective free will to refuse.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 18, 2021

Guojing said:
You have never heard of people who believed the earth is flat?

What does that have to do with the discussion?

Guojing · Mar 18, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
What does that have to do with the discussion?

Its based on what I said "If you have witness echo chambers and how they work, you will realise that the idea of truth itself is very much subjective and individualistic"

Ceallaigh · Mar 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. Already made my case with the Bible. One either believes the verses I put forth or they don’t believe them.

As I'm sure you know perfectly well it's not a matter of believing the verses you put forth, it's a matter of whether or not they support your position. This is yet another strawman you often use, claiming that people are denying what the Bible says, when they are actually pointing out that the verses you used don't really support your position.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 19, 2021

Guojing said:
Its based on what I said "If you have witness echo chambers and how they work, you will realise that the idea of truth itself is very much subjective and individualistic"

But the truth is not and no one actually lives like that, even those who say with their mouths that truth is subjective. If we recorded your conversations especially when you feel you have been wronged by someone, then you will insist that the wrong suffered is not merely your own subjective truth and the perpetrator was not bound to your "subjective truth" anyway.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. Already made my case with the Bible. One either believes the verses I put forth or they don’t believe them.

When we really do have the mind of Christ, which is thinking as He thinks, our thoughts are like God's thoughts. It is possible.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
When we really do have the mind of Christ, which is thinking as He thinks, our thoughts are like God's thoughts. It is possible.

I am not doubting it's possible. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:16 just fine. But many today simply do not agree with what the Bible plainly says on various topics. They want it their own and not God's way.

Guojing · Mar 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not doubting it's possible. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:16 just fine. But many today simply do not agree with what the Bible plainly says on various topics. They want it their own and not God's way.

There is this saying "Most of us don't let the Bible get in the way of what we already want to believe".

Dorothy Mae · Mar 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not doubting it's possible. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:16 just fine. But many today simply do not agree with what the Bible plainly says on various topics. They want it their own and not God's way.

Yes, it is true that being willing to
change your thinking to fit the scripture is important but I’m talking about something deeper. I’ve heard men of God talk whose whole understanding not only matches the scripture discussed, it matches all of it and it is with deep knowledge. That is, their mind is so renewed that they can see some matters as God sees them at times. How can I express this? Having the mind of Christ is understanding a matter as God does.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 19, 2021

Guojing said:
There is this saying "Most of us don't let the Bible get in the way of what we already want to believe".

“Don’t tell me the truth, I’ve already made up my mind” thinking.

Ceallaigh · Mar 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I am not doubting it's possible. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:16 just fine. But many today simply do not agree with what the Bible plainly says on various topics. They want it their own and not God's way.

In other words they have their interpretation of what the Bible plainly says and then you have yours.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 19, 2021

MMXX said:
In other words they have their interpretation of what the Bible plainly says and then you have yours.

And then we have some (few) who want the truth and are prepared to make the appropriate mental adjustments. Of course many are deceived by the “subjective truth” theory and think there’s no point in searching. It is a modern fallacy and trap.

Nathan@work · Mar 19, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I understand why you are talking about those who think there is a kind of weighing scale comparing good deeds and bad deeds and that is off and I agree with you. I have heard there are those who think like this.

I would ask you to consider the verse where Jesus said that those who keep His commandments or teachings the Father will love. He actually said that they will come and make their home in those who live like this. This is what it means to seek His heart. I cannot but see that this means that those who obey God please Him. Surely any parent can tell you that the child who is more obedient than the naughty child pleases them more. The love is the same but with one a parent is pleased and with the other a parent is displeased and yes, obedience is the key.

The parable of the sheep does not seem to be God's plan in the matters of men, I think. I mean when we consider the prodigal son, the father did nothing at all to pursue the son. And this was the father, a real picture of God. In real life the 70 left following Jesus and he did not even call them to come back and he will explain himself. He let all 70 walk away. It is likely that He pursues or calls all men at one point or another. But that calling is limited to within respective free will to refuse.

I think I may be still not quite saying it the right way, but it really isn’t about your topic so maybe I can explain better in another thread.

Butterball1 · Mar 19, 2021

Guojing said:
Let's take Romans 5:12-13 literally

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

How did sin get imputed into the world and us, according to Paul?

imputed does not mean transfer but means to credit, to put on one's account. Abraham was credited righteousness, it credited to him put on his account and not transferred to him from Christ, Romans 4:11

impute is from the Greek logizomai

Logizomai Challenge: Is Imputation Biblical?

From the above website: (my emp)

The Greek verb logizomai (Strong's G3049) appears 41 times in the New Testament. It is translated into English in various ways, commonly as "credited" or "regarded" or "reckoned".

As it is used throughout the New Testament, the meaning and use of the word is, roughly, 'to form a mental evaluation of something'. It does not mean anything along the lines of "to transfer" (e.g. to transfer to an account). The Hebrew equivalent term, chashab, follows the same general meaning.

A popular Biblical commentary by Albert Barnes says this about Romans 4:3:
"I have examined all the passages [where logizomai occurs], and as the result of my examination have come to the conclusion, that there is not one in which the word is used in the sense of reckoning or imputing to a man what does not strictly belong to him; or of charging on him what ought not to be charged on him as a matter of personal right. The word is never used to denote imputing in the sense of transferring, or of charging that on one which does not properly belong to him."

Protestant scholar, Dr James Buchanan, says the following in his tome The Doctrine of Justification (II:12:17):
'There is not in all the Scriptures,' says one [opponent], 'an instance in which one man's sin or righteousness is said to be imputed to another. There is not in all the Bible one assertion that Adam's sin, or Christ's righteousness, is imputed to us; nor one declaration that any man's sin is ever imputed by God or man to another man. Having followed (the Hebrew and Greek verbs) through the concordances, I hesitate not to challenge a single example which is fairly of this nature in all the Bible.'

Contrary to popular belief, and unfortunately perpetuated by various Protestant scholars, the term logizomai does not appear in Philemon 1:18, which uses a different Greek word. Also note that Buchanan indirectly admits there is not a single instance in Scripture where the term logizomai is used in reference to imputing (a) Adam's guilt to us, (b) our sin to Christ, or (c) "Christ's Righteousness" to the believer. (Paul was well aware of the term, using it over 30 times throughout his epistles, yet he never used it in such contexts.)

God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

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May God be with you and bless you.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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May God be with you and bless you.

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Always ready :)

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