Mainstream Christianity is wrong about Matthew 5:27-28 (the famous “lust” passage)

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So what I gather here is listing is just the body craving something. Or the mind. Worldly things, be they skin, food, money, clothes, anything people are desiring strongly. Material goods, fleshly bodies. Anything that is not spiritual.
This approach unfortunately looks a lot more like gnosticism than Christianity.

Christianity has always understood the human person to be fully integrated - meaning, the physical is important and dear to God as much as the mind, the soul, etc. In fact, the physical is a PART of spirituality - skin, food, money, clothes, "worldly" things are all spiritual as much as they are physical and therefore they are important to God and to us.

This changes the conversation significantly but it puts it more closer to the Bible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This approach unfortunately looks a lot more like gnosticism than Christianity.

Christianity has always understood the human person to be fully integrated - meaning, the physical is important and dear to God as much as the mind, the soul, etc. In fact, the physical is a PART of spirituality - skin, food, money, clothes, "worldly" things are all spiritual as much as they are physical and therefore they are important to God and to us.

This changes the conversation significantly but it puts it more closer to the Bible.
I view the spiritual realm as "super-natural". As in super-physical, yet invisible to us. C. S. Lewis eluded to this in his book: The Great Divorce.

We tend to view the supernatural as wispy and ethereal (like a ghost), when the exact opposite is true. Everything in our realm is corruptible. (subject to decay) Not so in the spiritual realm.
 
Upvote 0

HatGuy

Some guy in a hat
Jun 9, 2014
1,008
786
Visit site
✟123,338.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I view the spiritual realm as "super-natural". As in super-physical, yet invisible to us. C. S. Lewis eluded to this in his book: The Great Divorce.

We tend to view the supernatural as wispy and ethereal (like a ghost), when the exact opposite is true. Everything in our realm is corruptible. (subject to decay) Not so in the spiritual realm.
Yes, I think many people think of it as ethereal.

For my part, I tend to view "spiritual" as a way of describing the connection we have between God, others and even God's creation - love, as it were, but the true depth of love.

Heaven is a physical place, but a 'new creation' - heaven is therefore physical, or super-physical I suppose, like you've alluded to. At any rate, I see heaven as incorporating physical elements and although incorruptible, it's not unchanging or static.

In this sense, I don't really use the phrase "spiritual realm" - although I do believe there are beings that operate in what we could call a 'spiritual realm', although I think of that spiritual realm in a more interdimensional sort of way. I try to get away from the typical Platonic philosophy that surrounds this idea.

Incidentally, Romans 8:5 seems to not be saying that the flesh does not count (that would go against other scriptures) but only that fixing your mind on the flesh alone is not enough. By fixing your mind on the 'spiritual', you get the flesh and everything else - the whole picture. The greek word "sarx" used in that instance (commonly translated 'sinful nature', which I believe is a mistake in the NIV) is not inherently referring to depravity. The "flesh" is not depraved, what is depraved is only focusing on the flesh (this alludes to the 'inward bend' a poster mentioned above).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,257
20,263
US
✟1,473,797.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lust not after her beauty in thine heart, neither let her take thee with her eyelids. Proverbs 6:25

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet. Romans 1:27

But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. James 1:14

So what I gather here is listing is just the body craving something. Or the mind. Worldly things, be they skin, food, money, clothes, anything people are desiring strongly. Material goods, fleshly bodies. Anything that is not spiritual.

Jesus and Paul both "lusted" according to scripture. At least that was the verb used.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,257
20,263
US
✟1,473,797.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's interesting. Which scripture says that Jesus lusted?

And he said unto them, With epithumeo I have epithumeo to eat this passover with you before I suffer -- Luke 22:15

The Greek verb epithumeo is the same verb used in all the "bad" instances of "lust."

The same verb epithumeo is used by Paul in reference to himself in Philippians 1:23 and 1 Thessalonians 2:17.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
This approach unfortunately looks a lot more like gnosticism than Christianity.

Christianity has always understood the human person to be fully integrated - meaning, the physical is important and dear to God as much as the mind, the soul, etc. In fact, the physical is a PART of spirituality - skin, food, money, clothes, "worldly" things are all spiritual as much as they are physical and therefore they are important to God and to us.

This changes the conversation significantly but it puts it more closer to the Bible.
It is not trying to be anything except the way the Bible reads and has nothing to do with Christianity. Lust is described in the Old Testament.
Notwithstanding, thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the Lord thy God which He hath given thee; the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck and as of the hart. Deuteronomy 12:15

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after: for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth; and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou and thine household Deuteronomy 14:26

but the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the Word, and it becometh unfruitful. Luke 4:19

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revelings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries; 1 Peter 4:3

These are all talking about craving all kinds of things. Taken from the Bible. That is Gnostic?
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Do you wear eye makeup? (and bright lipstick)
No I do not. I quit wearing makeup. Why?
Do these things create lust? I have chosen to buy more modest clothing when I can afford it and do not wish to make my Christian Brothers stumble into perceiving my appearance in a way that would be unpleasing to God. Of course I cannot afford an entirely new wardrobe, but I am trying to present myself differently than I did when I was dressing more carelessly or for myself. I realized that this was wrong. Why do you ask?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Jesus and Paul both "lusted" according to scripture. At least that was the verb used.
Lusted for what? I am not saying that lusting is bad, it depends on what you are lusting for. I lust for more knowledge of the Bible, and to know Jesus better. There is nothing sexual about it but it is a lust because I crave it deeply.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No I do not. I quit wearing makeup. Why?
Do these things create lust? I have chosen to buy more modest clothing when I can afford it and do not wish to make my Christian Brothers stumble into perceiving my appearance in a way that would be unpleasing to God. Of course I cannot afford an entirely new wardrobe, but I am trying to present myself differently than I did when I was dressing more carelessly or for myself. I realized that this was wrong. Why do you ask?
Why? You quoted this verse below. Was wondering if you live up to it. Seems so. Thanks. (I won't bother you again) Maybe you should update your avatar?

Lust not after her beauty in thine heart, neither let her take thee with her eyelids. Proverbs 6:25
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,257
20,263
US
✟1,473,797.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Lusted for what? I am not saying that listing is bad, it depends on what you are listing for. I lust for more knowledge of the Bible, and to know Jesus better. There is nothing sexual about it but it is a lust because I crave it deeply.

That's my point.
 
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Why? You quoted this verse below. Was wondering if you live up to it. Seems so. Thanks. (I won't bother you again) Maybe you should update your avatar?

Lust not after her beauty in thine heart, neither let her take thee with her eyelids. Proverbs 6:25
Thanks I will be sure to do that. Sorry if it offended you.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Jaxxi

Half-ready for Anything.....
Jul 29, 2015
2,149
698
Phoenix, AZ
✟50,046.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
That's my point.
Oh! Well I think the difference is that 2000 years have twisted the original meaning. That has happened with a lot of words. If the Pastor in church was talking about " Jesus lusting for the Word" the congregation would probably start a riot as in today's day that is the wrong word to use! In 2021 Lust only means one thing. Sad but true.
 
Upvote 0

Kettriken

Active Member
Feb 10, 2020
368
233
36
Pennsylvania
✟41,816.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Private
I appreciate your POV on this and am glad to see a few women joining the discussion. The female perspective on this is important. Could you respond to the primary text? (see below) What does it mean to you as a woman and a mother?

Matthew 5:27-30 NASB
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 Now if your right eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

@Kettriken please see post #189 -- I would invite you to respond as well. Thanks.

I see this scripture much in the standard manner, as a strong rebuke against anyone who would look at another with willful longing. Jesus does not seem to be speaking about a passing appreciation for a winsome woman or man, but a lingering sexual thought, similar to the fantasy that the OP spoke of.

Lust is not a passing acknowledgement that someone is attractive, nor I believe is it a thought with intent toward physical attainment, as the OP has argued. Others more qualified to address the Greek and Hebrew have addressed that assertion. I believe that the lust Christ condemns is the mental yearning, given free reign. This is someone who has seen, yearned (coveted), and taken in their mind.

The thought and heart sin comes into play not when an individual has the initial inclination, but when they give in to it, allowing it to take control of their mind and in the case of the OP's argument their body during their "few minutes a day," if you'll forgive me being so crass. In fact, in that instance I would argue that whatever the definition of lust, the individual has crossed over from simply lusting (or even coveting) to taking the body of the woman in their mind to use it for physical gratification without her consent.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kettriken

Active Member
Feb 10, 2020
368
233
36
Pennsylvania
✟41,816.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Private
Sorry, I have been trying to catch up on everything. (A lot of comments to go through!) I think I have addressed what you speak of…? Not sure, sorry.

As for the “made for men” comment: Well, it is biblically true, no? Should we ignore parts of the Bible that hurt our modern, culturally feminized sensitivities? The Bible also speaks of numerous situations in which godly men had multiple wives (and the women were expected to be okay with that, back then), yet modern Christian women can’t even handle the idea that their husband would have even a single sexual thought about another woman.

The church has done a horrible job of teaching biblically-correct ideas when it comes to gender and the Bible. Men are different from women; our sexual minds work differently (and are capable of even falling in love with multiple women at once, as the Bible shows) - but mainstream modern Christian teachings don’t recognize this difference in how God made us.

In fact, they demonize masculine sexuality, not altogether unlike how the worldly feminist movement does. The fact is, modern Christianity’s view on these subjects is actually far more “worldly” than people would care to admit, and is the root of many problems. Fewer Christian women would be seeking marriage counseling/divorce, if they truly understood how the male mind works, as designed by God. I mean really, imagine if Leah felt she needed counseling just bc she couldn’t handle that Jacob was going to marry Rachel too. On the contrary, she actually gave Jacob her maid! Lol.

My initial objection was that other posters had brought up translational objections to your claims. I do not believe that those were addressed, but I could be mistaken in the course of this long thread.

The rest of your response to me is really very disheartening. To start, you relegate one of the most difficult passages of scripture, that "women are made for men" as a simple passage of the bible that one could only have a problem with if they have "culturally feminized sensibilities," whatever that means. Have you never considered what the implications of that might be for a woman, generally smaller and more vulnerable than a man? The implications for women who have been historically and continually victimized by men? Love your female neighbor as yourself, sir.

Then you claim that modern Christian women can't handle the idea of their husbands having sexual thoughts about other women. What evidence to you have for this? Just that we now expect a high standard of fealty of our men? Such as one might expect of Christ to his church?
And do you really think that Christian women don't have sexual thoughts about other men besides their husbands? Do you think that women can't fall in love with multiple men, or do you actually claim that as a gender-specific trait of men for women?

You go on to say that the church has demonized men's sexuality. In this you are certainly correct, but you would do better to add in the demonization of women's sexuality as well. What this has to do with "worldly feminism" I'm not sure. Is this not a church issue to address without borrowing troubles from the world?

Your vilification of marriage counseling is beyond the pale. How can you denigrate what might be some couples only hope to avoid the horrible fate of divorce? Secular therapy I could almost understand, but there are so many Godly psychologists and counselors working tirelessly to help couples into a more harmonious union. Should we not give them all the support we can?

Again, I find myself apologizing for how vehemently I have spoken to you, my brother in Christ, but I do not apologize for refuting these ideas in the strongest terms possible.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see this scripture much in the standard manner, as a strong rebuke against anyone who would look at another with willful longing. Jesus does not seem to be speaking about a passing appreciation for a winsome woman or man, but a lingering sexual thought, similar to the fantasy that the OP spoke of.

Lust is not a passing acknowledgement that someone is attractive, nor I believe is it a thought with intent toward physical attainment, as the OP has argued. Others more qualified to address the Greek and Hebrew have addressed that assertion. I believe that the lust Christ condemns is the mental yearning, given free reign. This is someone who has seen, yearned (coveted), and taken in their mind.

The thought and heart sin comes into play not when an individual has the initial inclination, but when they give in to it, allowing it to take control of their mind and in the case of the OP's argument their body during their "few minutes a day," if you'll forgive me being so crass. In fact, in that instance I would argue that whatever the definition of lust, the individual has crossed over from simply lusting (or even coveting) to taking the body of the woman in their mind to use it for physical gratification without her consent.
That's a good response. Thanks.

As you are probably well aware, male sexuality is primarily visually driven. Thus, a female that dresses in tight-fitting, and/or revealing clothes is inviting, and perhaps even encouraging, looks at her body. And as you have aptly stated, "a passing acknowledgement that someone is attractive" is not the problem here. However, it seems to me that there should be some shared blame when a female is arming herself with an arresting look that is designed to cause lust. How do you feel about that?

And perhaps you have some advice for men about what might be inappropriate attire (or the lack thereof) from a female perspective. I have heard some Christian women caution men against baring a hairy chest in public. (possibly fueling lust?)
 
Upvote 0

Kettriken

Active Member
Feb 10, 2020
368
233
36
Pennsylvania
✟41,816.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Private
That's a good response. Thanks.

As you are probably well aware, male sexuality is primarily visually driven. Thus, a female that dresses in tight-fitting, and/or revealing clothes is inviting, and perhaps even encouraging, looks at her body. And as you have aptly stated, "a passing acknowledgement that someone is attractive" is not the problem here. However, it seems to me that there should be some shared blame when a female is arming herself with an arresting look that is designed to cause lust. How do you feel about that?

And perhaps you have some advice for men about what might be inappropriate attire (or the lack thereof) from a female perspective. I have heard some Christian women caution men against baring a hairy chest in public. (possibly fueling lust?)

The question of dressing appropriately is one that I have struggled with understanding. I do believe that, as our Lord taught us, the issue is primarily in the eye of the beholder. However, there are several factors that a sister should take into account. Seeking to provocatively present oneself to someone other than their spouse would obviously be problematic. However, I don't think any of us would advocate for a head to toe veiling.

Within those two extremes we all, men and women have to make our choices. As a sister in Christ to a brother, I try not to make anybodies job harder. Plus, I have young adult stepsons. If I had a daughter to explain it to, I would say that it is a man's responsibility to control their thoughts, but since we can't guarantee that he would, I'd prefer she cover up to a reasonable degree. That degree is dependent on situation, beachwear, school, work, athletics, etc, requiring different parameters but not entirely so.

As far as advice for men goes, I don't know exactly what to say. I've never really struggled in that department, thank God, but I know some do. There is also the consideration that some brothers may not be entirely on the "straight" and narrow, as it were, whether they practice or not, so men may want to not give any more temptation than necessary.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The question of dressing appropriately is one that I have struggled with understanding. I do believe that, as our Lord taught us, the issue is primarily in the eye of the beholder. However, there are several factors that a sister should take into account. Seeking to provocatively present oneself to someone other than their spouse would obviously be problematic. However, I don't think any of us would advocate for a head to toe veiling.

Within those two extremes we all, men and women have to make our choices. As a sister in Christ to a brother, I try not to make anybodies job harder. Plus, I have young adult stepsons. If I had a daughter to explain it to, I would say that it is a man's responsibility to control their thoughts, but since we can't guarantee that he would, I'd prefer she cover up to a reasonable degree. That degree is dependent on situation, beachwear, school, work, athletics, etc, requiring different parameters but not entirely so.

As far as advice for men goes, I don't know exactly what to say. I've never really struggled in that department, thank God, but I know some do. There is also the consideration that some brothers may not be entirely on the "straight" and narrow, as it were, whether they practice or not, so men may want to not give any more temptation than necessary.
Provocative is an interesting word. The root is provoke. Another word is suggestive. What does the way a person dresses suggest? And I like what you are saying about wardrobe being situation appropriate. Beachwear for the beach.

However, I see a lot of provocative dress by women in the workplace. (inappropriate) Even an agnostic friend of mine calls it sexual harassment. Very interesting. (provoked?)

And ironically, if a man complained about provocative women's clothing at work, they would be the one charged with sexual harassment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,257
20,263
US
✟1,473,797.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And perhaps you have some advice for men about what might be inappropriate attire (or the lack thereof) from a female perspective. I have heard some Christian women caution men against baring a hairy chest in public. (possibly fueling lust?)

The male counterpart of a woman wearing sensual clothing would be the ostentatious flaunting of material wealth, from wearing gold chains to driving Maserati automobiles. Or, more subtly, wearing expensively tailored clothing and flaunting the most exclusive credit cards and club memberships.
 
Upvote 0