Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Is it always the same meaning/use?

Mark Quayle said:

Maybe it's time to define, "Fall Away". Does it always carry the same meaning/use, in Scripture?

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It's the definition of "apostasy."

Perhaps it would be useful to start with listing the verses where the expression appears. Then we can look at the context and discuss what is meant in each case.

Peter declared, “Even if all fall away, I will not.” (Mark 14:29)

"All this I have told you so that you will not fall away." John 16:1

"“You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written: “ ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’" Mark 14:27 and Mt 26:31

"But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away." Mt 13:21, Mark 4:17 and Luke 8:13

"Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." 2Peter 3:17

Did I miss any?

I also found

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4

"It is impossible for those who [...] have shared in the Holy Spirit [...] and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Hebrews 6:4-6

Mark Quayle said:

I assume, then, you mean it always refers to the same thing, in Scripture? Apostasy. Does it also mean, 'fallen from grace"?

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No, there are many ways to "fall away." Only some apply to "religious apostasy; i.e., revolt, rebellion, defection, to forsake, fall away:
apostasia - defection, revolt, apostasy, Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3
ekpipto - to fall out, 2 Peter 3:17
parapipto - to fall away from, Hebrews 6:6
aphistemi - to withdraw from, 1Timothy 4:1
parabaino - to fall, transgress, Acts 1:25

"Fallen from grace" in Paul's usage is simply making works of the law necessary for justification/salvation. The error can be corrected. If not, it is not saving faith.

Ok so define it. What exactly is Apostasy? And what are the implications for the end of the Elect?

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True faith does not apostasize. The elect do not apostasize permanently, only false faith apostasizes permanently.
If any elect "fall away," it may be because their faith is not yet a true faith, maybe just intellectual assent, with no Holy Spirit heart work. But there will be a Holy Spirit heart work that will bring the elect to true faith, which true faith does not apostasize.

Mark Quayle said:

Hello, Claire. Would you please, or may I, (I would prefer if you would) quote this post of yours to another thread, which was my reason for starting this thread. This other thread, by the way, was begun by someone I know pretty well, who will LOVE your post.

When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

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Done.

G4098 - piptō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

"fall"

"to descend from a higher place to a lower; to fall (either from or upon); to be thrust down"

"fall" carries the idea of a change in position. One falls from a tree then his position has changed from a higher place up in the tree to a lower place on the ground.

Similar to apostate:

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

apostate - move away from a previous standing. 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul spoke of himself becoming a reprobate, adokimos - become rejected, castaway, unfit.....a change of state/position.

If eternal security were true, then there could be no such a thing as an apostate or fallen.

Friedrich Rubinstein said:

I also found

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4

"It is impossible for those who [...] have shared in the Holy Spirit [...] and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Hebrews 6:4-6

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Hi,

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

The verbs "crucify" and "put" are present tense denoting an action that is ongoing, sustained. So the idea is that it is impossible for those that continue to crucify and continue to put to shame Christ. Christ is the reason one repents, hence as long as one continues to crucify and continues to put to shame the reason (Christ) to repent then repentance will be impossible. But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame Christ he can come to repentance. Those Hebrew converts were warned about becoming apostates (Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:1 etc). So the idea is not that the Hebrew who quits believing can never be saved but are being warned about falling into a state of unbelief and remaining there in continuing to crucify and put to shame Christ.

Those who become apostates don't necessarily have to remain in that state. Apostasy is a state one chooses to be in and therefore can choose to remove himself from that state. The prodigal went from being spiritually alive to be spiritually dead. But did not choose to remain dead but 'came to himself' and returned to his father thereby spiritually alive AGAIN.

Butterball1 said:

Hi,

Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

The verbs "crucify" and "put" are present tense denoting an action that is ongoing, sustained. So the idea is that it is impossible for those that continue to crucify and continue to put to shame Christ. Christ is the reason one repents, hence as long as one continues to crucify and continues to put to shame the reason (Christ) to repent then repentance will be impossible. But if one quits crucifying and putting to shame Christ he can come to repentance. Those Hebrew converts were warned about becoming apostates (Hebrews 2:1-3; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:1 etc). So the idea is not that the Hebrew who quits believing can never be saved but are being warned about falling into a state of unbelief and remaining there in continuing to crucify and put to shame Christ.

Those who become apostates don't necessarily have to remain in that state. Apostasy is a state one chooses to be in and therefore can choose to remove himself from that state. The prodigal went from being spiritually alive to be spiritually dead. But did not choose to remain dead but 'came to himself' and returned to his father thereby spiritually alive AGAIN.

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I agree, hebrews 6 is not talking about committing a sin, it is talking about living in sin. Living as if Jesus never existed. It takes someone the willful decision to turn their back on Jesus and to live like the rest of the world (again).

Butterball1 said:

G4098 - piptō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

"fall"

"to descend from a higher place to a lower; to fall (either from or upon); to be thrust down"

"fall" carries the idea of a change in position. One falls from a tree then his position has changed from a higher place up in the tree to a lower place on the ground.

Similar to apostate:

Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

apostate - move away from a previous standing. 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul spoke of himself becoming a reprobate, adokimos - become rejected, castaway, unfit.....a change of state/position.

If eternal security were true, then there could be no such a thing as an apostate or fallen.

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Religious apostasy is to fall away from a profession of faith.

Profession is not necessarily possession. Those who apostasize had only a profession, they had no possession of true faith.

Clare73 said:

Religious apostasy is to fall away from a profession of faith.

Profession is not necessarily possession. Those who apostasize had only a profession, they had no possession of true faith.

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Do you have a book, chapter, verse to back this idea up?

An apostate is one whose position has changed, one who as moved away from a previous standing. One who was never really saved is not one who can fall for he is and was already in a fallen lost state. Obviously one cannot fall from an already fallen state.

Butterball1 said:

Do you have a book, chapter, verse to back this idea up?

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The whole counsel of God:
1 John 2:19 - they left the brethren because they were not true brethren (believers)

Luke 8:13 - they looked like they had true faith, but they didn't because they had no root (new birth)

An apostate is one whose position has changed, one who as moved away from a previous standing.

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That standing being a profession of faith.

One who was never really saved is not one who can fall for he is and was already in a fallen lost state. Obviously one cannot fall from an already fallen state.

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Correct.

An apostate falls from/abandons a profession of faith, which may, or may not, be a possession of (true) faith.

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize

Clare73 said:

The whole counsel of God:


The whole counsel of God:
1 John 2:19 - they left the brethren because they were not true brethren (believers)
- they left the brethren because they were not true brethren (believers)

Luke 8:13 - they looked like they had true faith, but they didn't because they had no root (new birth)

That standing being a profession of faith.
Correct.

An apostate falls from/abandons a profession of faith, which may, or may not, be a possession of (true) faith.

"No one can come to me unless the Father enables him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives to me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

Do the math. . .Jesus loses none whom the Father gives him. . .true faith does not (truly) apostasize

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Earlier you posted;
"Religious apostasy is to fall away from a profession of faith.

Profession is not necessarily possession. Those who apostasize had only a profession, they had no possession of true faith."

According to what you posted a person with only a "profession of faith" was never saved to begin with. So his position has not changed...he was in a lost state and still is in a lost state....he was fallen and still is fallen. Yet the terms apostate and fallen refer to a person whose position has changed from a saved state to a lost state.

If those people John was speaking about in 1 John 2:19 were never saved, then the most that verse proves is that a never saved person....was never saved, it fails to prove that it's impossible for a saved person to become an apostate/fallen.

Same with Luke 8:13 if they were never saved then they were lost, still lost and their position did not change. Again, 'apostate' and 'fallen' refer to those whose position has changed from saved to lost and not lost to lost for lost and still lost is an unchanged position....
"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
If they never really believed therefore never really saved then they were ALWAYS fallen and one cannot fall from an already fallen position. Secondly, you are ASSUMING they never did really believe therefore never really saved. Luke clearly states that they "believe"... Luke did not say they were faking as you assume. The verb 'believe" is in the indicative mood which is a simple statement of fact. It is a fact that they actually did believe hence saved then would fall from that saved state by going into unbelief, a clear change of position going from saved to lost. If they never believed then Luke did not state the truth about them when he said for a fact they 'believe'. That they "fall away" is proof they did actually believe and for a while were in a saved state to fall from it later in unbelief. For one does not fall/apostatize from unbelief state to an unbelief state.

John 6 does not teach unconditional eternal security and if it did that would render the terms 'apostate' and 'fallen' meaningless.

Butterball1 said:

If eternal security were true, then there could be no such a thing as an apostate or fallen.

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Do you believe that we can undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place?

Luke 15:4 NIV
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

Saint Steven said:

Do you believe that we can undo, by an act of our own will, what only God can do in the first place?

Luke 15:4 NIV
“Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

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Salvation is not monergestic nor unconditional. Both God and man have a role in man's salvation, Jude 1:21. When the Christian fails to keep his role in what God has required for salvation then the Christian loses the promise of salvation he once had.

If eternal security were true, it would be impossible for one sheep to ever become lost. But there is such a thing as apostasy, falling away.