David Bentley Hart on Hell

East of Eden

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Mary never sinned nor did she have any other children.

Where did you get that idea? If Jesus needed a sinless mother to be Himself sinless, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, and four sinless grandparents, etc., to herself be sinless? The Bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and speaks of Jesus' brothers and sisters. The first notion of Jesus not having siblings wasn't until the fourth century. NT mentions of brothers use the specific Greek word for “brother”. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. The historian Flavius Josephus also mentions James, the brother of Jesus.
 
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Valletta

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Where did you get that idea? If Jesus needed a sinless mother to be Himself sinless, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, and four sinless grandparents, etc., to herself be sinless? The Bible talks about Jesus' brothers and sisters. The first notion of Jesus not having siblings wasn't until the fourth century. NT mentions of brothers use the specific Greek word for “brother”. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. The historian Flavius Josephus also mentions James, the brother of Jesus.
Nonsense again, Jesus and Mary were always fully aware she had no other children. My brother, yours is an amateurish mistake, you are simply going beyond the Biblical text--adding your own beliefs to the Bible.
 
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Valletta

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Where did you get that idea? If Jesus needed a sinless mother to be Himself sinless, wouldn't Mary need two sinless parents, and four sinless grandparents, etc., to herself be sinless? The Bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and speaks of Jesus' brothers and sisters. The first notion of Jesus not having siblings wasn't until the fourth century. NT mentions of brothers use the specific Greek word for “brother”. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. The historian Flavius Josephus also mentions James, the brother of Jesus.
Do not try and limit God, if God wanted his mother sinless God could do it without her having sinless parents. I assure you God is all powerful and could do such a thing.
 
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East of Eden

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Do not try and limit God, if God wanted his mother sinless God could do it without her having sinless parents. I assure you God is all powerful and could do such a thing.

And God made Jesus sinless without having a sinless mother. Jesus gave no special recognition to His earthly mother. I think if Mary could know what is going on in her name she would be aghast. God is a jealous God, and will give His glory to no other.
 
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East of Eden

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Nonsense again, Jesus and Mary were always fully aware she had no other children.

So why does the Bible say she did, and why is there no record of her not having other children before the 4th C. Would having a normal marital relationship somehow make her less 'pure'? She was a wonderful example to us all, but so were other Biblical figures, and many Christians today.

My brother, yours is an amateurish mistake, you are simply going beyond the Biblical text--adding your own beliefs to the Bible.

Exactly what I think you're doing.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Your icon looks modern, is it?
I don't know. There are many versions of it. It was recently brought to my attention by a Franciscan Friar named Richard Rohr, when he was talking about a book called
"Resurrecting Easter: How the West Lost and the East Kept the Original Easter Vision
Book by John Dominic Crossan and Sarah Crossan"

5156GTzT5wL._SX444_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
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East of Eden

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I don't know. There are many versions of it. It was recently brought to my attention by a Franciscan Friar named Richard Rohr, when he was talking about a book called
"Resurrecting Easter: How the West Lost and the East Kept the Original Easter Vision
Book by John Dominic Crossan and Sarah Crossan"

5156GTzT5wL._SX444_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Both Rohr and Crossan have some very strange ideas.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Verses always taken out-of-context vainly trying to prop up universal reconciliation.

They are just verses that came to my mind. I'm not part of any organization. I'm sure there are those who will also accuse you of taking verses out of context and ignoring verses as well. What I want to consider is: What is the overall message of the Bible?
Contrary to what UR-ites say, scripture does NOT say that all mankind will bow "in reverent love for their Maker." etc.
Exomologeō occurs eleven times in the NT, in addition to Phil 2:11. In the other 10 it never means “whole-heartedly… without reservation (no holding back)”etc.
In Philippians 2:11exomologeō is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the mood of possibility or potentiality. The action may or may not happen. Every knee should bow not “will bow.
Matthew 3:6 “confessing their sins,” Matthew 11:25 “thank,” Mark 1:5 “confessing their sins,” Luke 10:21 “thank,” Luke 22:6 “promised,” Acts of the apostles 19:18 “confessed their deeds,” Romans 14:11 “confess,” Romans 15:9 “confess Christ,” James 5:16 “confess your faults,” Revelation 3:5 “confess his name”
…..Scripture says that every knee should bow but only believers will do so freely, willingly in love and faith, the others will be conquered enemies. How will the enemies of Jesus feel.
Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, *(fn) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
…..*(fn)"That day" =the day of judgment.]
After judgment day and “I never knew you: depart from me,” there are no more chances for reconciliation.
The word of God says every knee should bow. It must be important because it is repeated 3 times.
1. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
2. Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
3. Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
But the " the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, murderers, sexually immoral, those who practice magic, idolaters, liars" etc.[Rev 21:8] everyone who denied God and Christ all their lives will be forced to their knees, i.e. become Jesus’ footstool, and forced to proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
This is another important point it is recorded 7 times in scripture. The followers of UR ignore these verses.
1. Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2. Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
3. Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
4. Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
5. Acts of the apostles 2:34-35
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool..
6. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
7. Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;.
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
What does “make your enemies your footstool mean?” Joshua, the OT type of Jesus, shows us in Josh. 10.
Josh 10:5-15 five kings band together to make war against Israel and were defeated.
Joshua 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah….Joshua 10:22-24
22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.…
24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
The enemies of Joshua were made his footstool then destroyed. They did not become faithful, obedient members of his army.
The enemies of Jesus become His footstool, as the enemies of Joshua did, and nowhere is it written that those enemies will be reconciled.

Then King David rose to his feet and said, “Hear me, my brethren and my people: I had it in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made preparations to build it. 1 Chronicles 28:2

Exalt the Lord our God, And worship at His footstool— He is holy. Psalm 99:5

Let us go into His tabernacle; Let us worship at His footstool. Psalm 132:7

Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest? Isaiah 66:1
 
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Ceallaigh

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Steve Gregg has always struck me as quite levelheaded. I first encountered this teaching at a home bible study setting back in 2008. I had been listening to Steve's radio show The Narrow Path prior to meeting him there. So I was surprised by what he had to say about hell doctrine. Here's a lecture he gave about it some years later.

 
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Valletta

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So why does the Bible say she did, and why is there no record of her not having other children before the 4th C. Would having a normal marital relationship somehow make her less 'pure'? She was a wonderful example to us all, but so were other Biblical figures, and many Christians today.



Exactly what I think you're doing.
You're wrong, you falsely state the Bible says so. When you have a word that can mean relatives or blood brothers it is faulty logic to say it proves someone is a blood brother. It would be like me saying that there are non-murderers and murderers in the world and that proves you are a murderer. It does not. If you knew your Bible you would know that although Lot and Abram are called brothers in the Bible in fact they were not biological brothers, so says the Bible. They were biologically related, but the term "brothers" or "brethren" in the Bible does not mean they are biological brothers!
 
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Der Alte

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You're wrong, you falsely state the Bible says so. When you have a word that can mean relatives or blood brothers it is faulty logic to say it proves someone is a blood brother. It would be like me saying that there are non-murderers and murderers in the world and that proves you are a murderer. It does not. If you knew your Bible you would know that although Lot and Abram are called brothers in the Bible in fact they were not biological brothers, so says the Bible. They were biologically related, but the term "brothers" or "brethren" in the Bible does not mean they are biological brothers!
Are you referring to the word "ἀδελφός/adelphos"? The primary meaning is brother. The word sometimes does refer to other relatives.It should be translated brother unless there is contextual evidence which shows another meaning.
 
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East of Eden

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Valletta

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Are you referring to the word "ἀδελφός/adelphos"? The primary meaning is brother. The word sometimes does refer to other relatives.It should be translated brother unless there is contextual evidence which shows another meaning.
That's quackery. I gave you one example from the Bible, there are others within the Bible and you should have picked up on that. Lot was not Abram's brother. In the case of Mary, when she was told she would have a son she asked how could that be?
 
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Der Alte

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That's quackery. I gave you one example from the Bible, there are others within the Bible and you should have picked up on that. Lot was not Abram's brother. In the case of Mary, when she was told she would have a son she asked how could that be?
Nice! You start out by insulting me. No it is how Greek works. Check any Greek grammar or lexicon. The primary definition of a word takes precedence unless the context shows otherwise e.g. the case of Lot and Abram.
Unfortunately lots of folks will not accept it since it contradicts their assumptions/presuppositions.
Brother in English often functions the same way. I served in the military there were many I called brother and we were not related. Many churches men call each other brother although they are not related. But all those other uses does not change the primary meaning i.e. brother is a male relative who has the same mother and father as another person.
 
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Ceallaigh

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That's quackery. I gave you one example from the Bible, there are others within the Bible and you should have picked up on that. Lot was not Abram's brother.

Genesis 11:27 makes it clear Lot was Abram's nephew before Lot was called Abram's relative/brother in Genesis 14:14.

"Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?" Matthew 13:55 That seems to be clearly referring to a nuclear family. Unless there's some other passage that makes it clear that James (especially), Joses, Simon and Judas were relatives rather than siblings.

In the case of Mary, when she was told she would have a son she asked how could that be?

Because she was an unwed virgin at that time. She obviously became married to Joseph afterwards.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Valletta

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Genesis 11:27 makes it clear Lot was Abram's nephew before Lot was called Abram's relative/brother in Genesis 14:14.

"Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas?" Matthew 13:55 That seems to be clearly referring to a nuclear family. Unless there's some other passage that makes it clear that James (especially), Joses, Simon and Judas were relatives rather than siblings.



Because she was an unwed virgin at that time. She obviously became married to Joseph afterwards.

Not that this has anything to do with the topic.
Actually she was already betrothed to Joseph, although they had not yet lived together.
As to Jesus and his "brothers" Genesis makes it clear that Lot was Abram's nephew, yet Lot is called Abrams "brother.'" Thus the Bible itself makes it clear "brother" can be used to describe a relative.
 
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