Futurist Only "Matthew 24 isn't about the rapture" - Nonsense.

Timtofly

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Let me ask you this then. These in Revelation 7 that come out of great tribulation, how are they coming out of it per your view? By physically dying during great tribulation, or by being raptured while still alive?
Is the church only defined by those martyred? John portrayed in Revelations a church that was martyred. Never a raptured church. Unless, like some, one turns everything into symbolism, there is no rapture mentioned. John is also not really specifying a difference between Israel and the church, nor defining a group singled out. John's definition of the church is based on martyrdom. Or at least he lumps saints into a single group of martyrs. John does not explain if the church, as we know it today, is a part of anything he wrote in Revelations.

Some want to call the 144k or the two witnesses the "church". That is not even hinted at. The church can only be removed at the 6th Seal. Saints can be the 144k, but the requirements of the 144k are not the same for the church, not even symbolically. The church has an open door, free will acceptance policy. The 144k have no choice in who they are.
 
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Jamdoc

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Let me ask you this then. These in Revelation 7 that come out of great tribulation, how are they coming out of it per your view? By physically dying during great tribulation, or by being raptured while still alive?

Both will happen.
Many will be martyred but they will be resurrected at the rapture, and Jesus will "cut short" the days of the Great Tribulation so that some Christians are still alive when He returns.

Matthew 24:22 is key to my understanding of this.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The beast is given 42 months to continue and to overcome (physically) the saints. Jesus will cut those 42 months short because if they continue to their entirety all the saints would die.

Remember also key to understanding the position is to see Revelation as 2 parallel narratives. Notice the duplications. 144k in Chapter 7 and 14, Jesus in the clouds chapter 6 and 14, saints in heaven chapter 7 and 15.
Revelation 10:7 clues me in that the 7th trumpet... is the last event in that narrative. Chapter 12 begins a new narrative with the birth of Christ.
So you have 2 narratives where you have tribulation, then rapture, then the wrath of God. It is very neat and consistent, it reconciles all scripture on the subject, on how a Christian can face persecution/the Great Tribulations, and yet not be appointed to the wrath of God.

Back to the saints in heaven in chapters 7 and 15.
The thing that is eye opening to me, is that in Revelation 6:9-11 John identifies the martyrs as just souls, they have no bodies. These souls are asking God how long will it be until He judges the earth, meaning up until that point? God has not begun to pour out His wrath. They're also kinda complaining aren't they?
But in chapter 7 they're wearing clothes and holding objects.. and nothing but praise.
They have been bodily resurrected

Revelation 15:2 is the same.. they're holding objects, so they have a body, and they are praising God

I believe that man is not meant to exist as a disembodied spirit and that we will never be satisfied existing as such. We will always feel that something is missing when we do not have a body.
The redemption of our bodies is one of the great hopes that separates Christianity from many other religions. The Gnostics think they just want to exist as spirits. They don't, and even Christians who let their theology get perverted by Platonism and think they'd like to just exist as spirits will probably one day find out they don't enjoy being a disembodied spirit afterall.
 
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NomNomPizza

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It walks like the rapture and talks like the rapture, in that it involves the Lord appearing in the clouds, the trumpet, and gathering the elect.
But pretribulationists reject this passage for two reasons that are both fallacies.
1. Because they have it in their mind that the rapture MUST take place before the "7 year tribulation" (a phrase NEVER used in the bible. Pay attention to where Jesus says the Great Tribulations begin and it's only after the midpoint, NOT 7 years), they immediately discard any scripture that suggests otherwise. That's eisegesis, that's coming into the Word of God thinking you already know what it says rather than letting the Word of God speak to you.
2. They claim that the chapter is "for the unbelieving Jews not the Church", yet they're perfectly comfortable using the chapter ASIDE from these verses as signs pointing to the rapture. Not to mention, Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Jews here He was talking to 4 apostles that would be the seeds of the Church. This was for believers, not unbelievers.

Finally stop claiming this is about the second coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19. This is not that. There's no horse, and He's gathering the elect, that is, believers like the Apostles, not unbelievers. The only thing being gathered at Armageddon is unbelievers doomed to be destroyed. The parousia is an enduring presence with multiple events taking place during it. It begins at the rapture, and never ends, it is ALL the second coming.
Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6:12-17. NOT Revelation 19.
May it open your eyes.
Nonsense is your agenda tbh
No it is not about the Rapture

Simple proof as always , Paul said that the "Rapture" was mystery revealed to him from Christ. No it was not revealed to Matthew at that time , Jesus was not talking about it.
If Jesus spoke about the rapture then Paul could not call it mystery.
Simple as that
Ye rapture is in the Bible but it is not there
 
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mikeforjesus

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Both will happen.
Many will be martyred but they will be resurrected at the rapture, and Jesus will "cut short" the days of the Great Tribulation so that some Christians are still alive when He returns.

Matthew 24:22 is key to my understanding of this.


The beast is given 42 months to continue and to overcome (physically) the saints. Jesus will cut those 42 months short because if they continue to their entirety all the saints would die.

Remember also key to understanding the position is to see Revelation as 2 parallel narratives. Notice the duplications. 144k in Chapter 7 and 14, Jesus in the clouds chapter 6 and 14, saints in heaven chapter 7 and 15.
Revelation 10:7 clues me in that the 7th trumpet... is the last event in that narrative. Chapter 12 begins a new narrative with the birth of Christ.
So you have 2 narratives where you have tribulation, then rapture, then the wrath of God. It is very neat and consistent, it reconciles all scripture on the subject, on how a Christian can face persecution/the Great Tribulations, and yet not be appointed to the wrath of God.

Back to the saints in heaven in chapters 7 and 15.
The thing that is eye opening to me, is that in Revelation 6:9-11 John identifies the martyrs as just souls, they have no bodies. These souls are asking God how long will it be until He judges the earth, meaning up until that point? God has not begun to pour out His wrath. They're also kinda complaining aren't they?
But in chapter 7 they're wearing clothes and holding objects.. and nothing but praise.
They have been bodily resurrected

Revelation 15:2 is the same.. they're holding objects, so they have a body, and they are praising God

I believe that man is not meant to exist as a disembodied spirit and that we will never be satisfied existing as such. We will always feel that something is missing when we do not have a body.
The redemption of our bodies is one of the great hopes that separates Christianity from many other religions. The Gnostics think they just want to exist as spirits. They don't, and even Christians who let their theology get perverted by Platonism and think they'd like to just exist as spirits will probably one day find out they don't enjoy being a disembodied spirit afterall.


I thought that may be more likely that a rapture will happen mid tribulation and I heard and agreed with that I hope it is true because those who teach pretrib rapture do not all believe there is a chance to be saved after but is that not really the second coming of Christ ? But I’m thinking that may not be true and Christ will only come at the end of the tribulation as I don’t think Christ will rule on this earth
 
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DavidPT

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Both will happen.
Many will be martyred but they will be resurrected at the rapture, and Jesus will "cut short" the days of the Great Tribulation so that some Christians are still alive when He returns.

Matthew 24:22 is key to my understanding of this.


The beast is given 42 months to continue and to overcome (physically) the saints. Jesus will cut those 42 months short because if they continue to their entirety all the saints would die.

Remember also key to understanding the position is to see Revelation as 2 parallel narratives. Notice the duplications. 144k in Chapter 7 and 14, Jesus in the clouds chapter 6 and 14, saints in heaven chapter 7 and 15.
Revelation 10:7 clues me in that the 7th trumpet... is the last event in that narrative. Chapter 12 begins a new narrative with the birth of Christ.
So you have 2 narratives where you have tribulation, then rapture, then the wrath of God. It is very neat and consistent, it reconciles all scripture on the subject, on how a Christian can face persecution/the Great Tribulations, and yet not be appointed to the wrath of God.

Back to the saints in heaven in chapters 7 and 15.
The thing that is eye opening to me, is that in Revelation 6:9-11 John identifies the martyrs as just souls, they have no bodies. These souls are asking God how long will it be until He judges the earth, meaning up until that point? God has not begun to pour out His wrath. They're also kinda complaining aren't they?
But in chapter 7 they're wearing clothes and holding objects.. and nothing but praise.
They have been bodily resurrected

Revelation 15:2 is the same.. they're holding objects, so they have a body, and they are praising God

I believe that man is not meant to exist as a disembodied spirit and that we will never be satisfied existing as such. We will always feel that something is missing when we do not have a body.
The redemption of our bodies is one of the great hopes that separates Christianity from many other religions. The Gnostics think they just want to exist as spirits. They don't, and even Christians who let their theology get perverted by Platonism and think they'd like to just exist as spirits will probably one day find out they don't enjoy being a disembodied spirit afterall.


Throughout this entire thread thusfar, you make some very interesting points, some that I had never considered before. From what I can tell, prewrath is closer to post trib than it would be to pretrib. That is already a plus.


Since you see ppl in heaven already in bodies, where Revelation 7 does seem to show exactly that the more I think about it after having read your posts in this thread, does this mean to you that Jesus does a uturn at the rapture? Instead of fully descending to the earth, He and those gathered to Him, return to heaven where He just left moments earlier?

One of your arguments against post trib is that there are ppl in heaven who are in bodies. Post trib, at least my version of it, doesn't have anyone going bodily into heaven at the 2nd coming. I can see your point, yet I have to wonder why Jesus would bring the dead that sleep in Him, with Him when He comes, and assuming they are already with Him to begin with once they die, thus initially ascended to heaven as departed souls, to then do a uturn and take them back to where they already were moments ago?

Some might argue that it would be a uturn for the raptured church as well, if Jesus takes them back to earth where they already were moments earlier. To me though, at least the latter uturn makes better sense, the fact they would be confronting the beast and it's armies next, thus a valid reason to return to where they already were.
 
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DavidPT

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I thought that may be more likely that a rapture will happen mid tribulation and I heard and agreed with that I hope it is true because those who teach pretrib rapture do not all believe there is a chance to be saved after but is that not really the second coming of Christ ? But I’m thinking that may not be true and Christ will only come at the end of the tribulation as I don’t think Christ will rule on this earth


Some wrongly think the trib is 7 years. It's not 7 years, it's only 3.5 years. Midtrib would not mean 3.5 years later, it would mean 1.75 years later. IMO, though there is a position called midtrib, this position doesn't even exist because it is based on a misunderstanding about the length of the trib. There is the 70th week, though. And that does involve 7 years. But the trib doesn't begin at the start of the 7 years, it begins at the middle. Midtrib would be meaning half way though the trib, and if the trib is only 3.5 years, half way through that is not 3.5 years the same length as the trib, but is half of that, 1.75 years. Midtrib is just another fancy name for pretrib, because both pretrib and midtrib have the 3.5 year trib meaning after the rapture, and that midtrib wrongly assumes that the trib is 7 years rather than 3.5 years.
 
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mikeforjesus

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But what happens in the first 3.5 years ?
nonetheless I believe a rapture will happen after the 2 witnesses finish their prophecy and those who do not receive the mark a rapture will take place but perhaps there is no rapture for people but only the ones saved who died in Christ and those who already overcome will be raptured and the rest still must wait for the end of the tribulation
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Post Trib of course.. will say that the 2nd coming and rapture are the same thing, that they just meet Jesus in the air and come right back down for Armageddon..

But Revelation 7 and 15 with the Saints in heaven disagrees with that position too. The saints that have bodies that can wear clothes and hold harps.
Your particular pre-wrath view seems to depend a lot on your assumption that Revelation 7 and 15 describes saints in heaven with bodies, which would imply that they have already been resurrected and changed and met the Lord in the air, etc. as described in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54.

However, if a passage describes saints as being clothed with white robes or fine linen, that is not a description of their bodies, but rather is a symbolic description of the righteousness of the saints.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Can you see here that the "fine linen" does not represent the bodies of saints, but rather symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints"? I believe the reference to "white robes" in Revelation 7 means the same thing. It is the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven (as depicted in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20) and it does not describe them as having bodies at any point before Christ's return as depicted in Revelation 19.

While I do agree with you that Matthew 24:29-31 relates to the "rapture" which disproves pre-trib, I also believe there is simply no basis for thinking that Revelation 19:11-21 is a different event from Matthew 24:29-31 as you believe. Both of those passages refer to the same event described in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54.
 
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DavidPT

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But what happens in the first 3.5 years ?

Maybe the time of the 2 witnesses? Is that meaning during the same 42 months the beast reigns? Or is that meaning 3.5 years before the beast reigns? If the latter, both of those together add up to 7 years. The 42 months when the beast reigns, that is meaning the great trib.

The timeline would basically look like such. The 70th week. It consists of 7 years. During the first half there is no great trib as of yet. That begins at the beginning of the 2nd half. Midtrib has their proposed rapture taking place at the beginning of the middle of the week. The middle of the week is not the middle of the GT though, it is the beginning of the GT. Therefore, both midtrib and pretrib are basically the same thing, since both positions have the rapture taking place before or once the GT begins. Thus both positions have the church being removed, rather than having the church experiencing any of the GT.
 
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Jamdoc

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Nonsense is your agenda tbh
No it is not about the Rapture

Simple proof as always , Paul said that the "Rapture" was mystery revealed to him from Christ. No it was not revealed to Matthew at that time , Jesus was not talking about it.
If Jesus spoke about the rapture then Paul could not call it mystery.
Simple as that
Ye rapture is in the Bible but it is not there

The rapture is actually in the old testament (Isaiah 26:19-21) as well.
The mystery Paul was referring to was the character of the resurrection bodies. Not the rapture itself.
I mean... John 14 is also about the rapture and every pretribulationist affirms as much.
 
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Jake Arsenal

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Here's why this argument is divisive. "Rapture" is from the Latin rapio and most "rapture" believing Christians reject the Latin Church and its Latin Bible in favor of original language texts or at least translations from the original languages. Any argument made using this divisive term will always be fruitless.
 
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Jamdoc

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Throughout this entire thread thusfar, you make some very interesting points, some that I had never considered before. From what I can tell, prewrath is closer to post trib than it would be to pretrib. That is already a plus.


Since you see ppl in heaven already in bodies, where Revelation 7 does seem to show exactly that the more I think about it after having read your posts in this thread, does this mean to you that Jesus does a uturn at the rapture? Instead of fully descending to the earth, He and those gathered to Him, return to heaven where He just left moments earlier?

One of your arguments against post trib is that there are ppl in heaven who are in bodies. Post trib, at least my version of it, doesn't have anyone going bodily into heaven at the 2nd coming. I can see your point, yet I have to wonder why Jesus would bring the dead that sleep in Him, with Him when He comes, and assuming they are already with Him to begin with once they die, thus initially ascended to heaven as departed souls, to then do a uturn and take them back to where they already were moments ago?

Some might argue that it would be a uturn for the raptured church as well, if Jesus takes them back to earth where they already were moments earlier. To me though, at least the latter uturn makes better sense, the fact they would be confronting the beast and it's armies next, thus a valid reason to return to where they already were.

Well, here's the thing.
at the Rapture, Jesus appears in the clouds in power and great glory, and gathers the elect to Him in the air.
Everyone agrees on that.
Everyone also agrees that Jesus will set foot on the Earth, fight Armageddon, and at least premillennialists, all believe that is when He will establish His earthly Kingdom.

For pre trib and pre wrath, these are separate events, and involve taking the elect to heaven, Jesus making a U turn as you put it.
For post trib, this is the same event, and all the believers make a U turn.

I would support the "taking the righteous to heaven" position with Isaiah 26:19-20
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Especially verse 20. Where the people of God are beckoned to come and hide in a safe place from the wrath of God. Note that the resurrection of the dead precedes it. It's the same thing Paul is talking about in 1 Thessalonians. It's crazy that you can find the rapture in the old testament but there it is.

as to Jesus coming with the dead in Christ, yes, Jesus descends from heaven with their souls to reunite them with their bodies to resurrect them.

So that's what we have in 1 Thessalonians 4. Jesus coming back WITH the souls of the dead in Christ, resurrecting their bodies, then the living are caught up and they're all meeting in the air.
Then SOMEONE does a Uturn, and I believe that Jesus takes us back with Him to the place He has prepared for us (see John 14) and for the wedding supper of the lamb. Then after the wrath of God is finished, Jesus comes back down this time all the way to the earth, with all His saints, as in Revelation 19.

The key to this understanding is understanding that just as the first coming was every event that happened from Jesus' birth until His ascension on Pentecost, His second coming is every event from the Resurrection/Rapture/Day of the Lord, until well... eternity, because Jesus will always be with us from that moment forward. He will never leave us again. We will always be with Him. In heaven we are with Him, when He comes back to the Earth we follow Him, in the Millennial Kingdom we are with Him, and in Eternity we are with Him. We will never be separated as we are now.

That is part of why Jesus does the Uturn, so that we stay with Him.

Question for you... what does John 14 mean to you as Post Trib? When He receives us to Himself.. if He takes us right back to earth, we have not gone to the place that He has prepared for us?
 
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Jamdoc

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Here's why this argument is divisive. "Rapture" is from the Latin rapio and most "rapture" believing Christians reject the Latin Church and its Latin Bible in favor of original language texts or at least translations from the original languages. Any argument made using this divisive term will always be fruitless.

The word is not important. The concept/doctrine is.
Would you prefer I use "the caught up"? "the harpazo"

rapture is just a familiar term.
 
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Jamdoc

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But what happens in the first 3.5 years ?
nonetheless I believe a rapture will happen after the 2 witnesses finish their prophecy and those who do not receive the mark a rapture will take place but perhaps there is no rapture for people but only the ones saved who died in Christ and those who already overcome will be raptured and the rest still must wait for the end of the tribulation

the 70th week could be said to be divided into a few different events.
the beginning of sorrows/birth pains, where the antichrist begins to establish the last beast empire, the midpoint where he declares himself to be God, the Great Tribulations that follow, the wrath of God that is in the final parts of the 70th week that conclude with the battle of Armageddon.

But the first 3.5 years, the antichrist will be making himself out to be the good guy.
 
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Jamdoc

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Your particular pre-wrath view seems to depend a lot on your assumption that Revelation 7 and 15 describes saints in heaven with bodies, which would imply that they have already been resurrected and changed and met the Lord in the air, etc. as described in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54.

However, if a passage describes saints as being clothed with white robes or fine linen, that is not a description of their bodies, but rather is a symbolic description of the righteousness of the saints.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Can you see here that the "fine linen" does not represent the bodies of saints, but rather symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints"? I believe the reference to "white robes" in Revelation 7 means the same thing. It is the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven (as depicted in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20) and it does not describe them as having bodies at any point before Christ's return as depicted in Revelation 19.
John also makes a distinction in Revelation 6:9-11 that they do not have bodies.
Revelation 7 has them wearing clothes, carrying objects and their entire demeanor changes from complaining to rejoicing. Something big has happened. The great multitude suddenly appears all at once.

While I do agree with you that Matthew 24:29-31 relates to the "rapture" which disproves pre-trib, I also believe there is simply no basis for thinking that Revelation 19:11-21 is a different event from Matthew 24:29-31 as you believe. Both of those passages refer to the same event described in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-17, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54.

There's no gathering of the elect in Revelation 19. No darkening of the sun and moon.
there IS the darkening of the sun and moon in Revelation 6:12-13, and the results of the Gathering of the elect are seen in Revelation 7.
 
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Bobber

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I agree with the OP! Saying the rapture isn't being described in Mt 24 is so bizarre. It requires one to jump back and forth without justification in the middle of a chapter (24) swinging one way, saying this is for the church and all the sudden swinging to a far different position, that it's not for the church.
 
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dqhall

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It walks like the rapture and talks like the rapture, in that it involves the Lord appearing in the clouds, the trumpet, and gathering the elect.
But pretribulationists reject this passage for two reasons that are both fallacies.
1. Because they have it in their mind that the rapture MUST take place before the "7 year tribulation" (a phrase NEVER used in the bible. Pay attention to where Jesus says the Great Tribulations begin and it's only after the midpoint, NOT 7 years), they immediately discard any scripture that suggests otherwise. That's eisegesis, that's coming into the Word of God thinking you already know what it says rather than letting the Word of God speak to you.
2. They claim that the chapter is "for the unbelieving Jews not the Church", yet they're perfectly comfortable using the chapter ASIDE from these verses as signs pointing to the rapture. Not to mention, Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Jews here He was talking to 4 apostles that would be the seeds of the Church. This was for believers, not unbelievers.

Finally stop claiming this is about the second coming of Jesus as shown in Revelation 19. This is not that. There's no horse, and He's gathering the elect, that is, believers like the Apostles, not unbelievers. The only thing being gathered at Armageddon is unbelievers doomed to be destroyed. The parousia is an enduring presence with multiple events taking place during it. It begins at the rapture, and never ends, it is ALL the second coming.
Compare Matthew 24 to Revelation 6:12-17. NOT Revelation 19.
May it open your eyes.
It seems like the day of judgement when Jesus will save the righteous.

Luke 17 (WEB)
The Coming of the Kingdom

20Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; 21neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

22He said to the disciples, "The days will come, when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23They will tell you, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Don't go away, nor follow after them, 24for as the lightning, when it flashes out of the one part under the sky, shines to the other part under the sky; so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25But first, he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26As it happened in the days of Noah, even so will it be also in the days of the Son of Man. 27They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all. 30It will be the same way in the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31In that day, he who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away. Let him who is in the field likewise not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two people in one bed. The one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35There will be two grinding grain together. One will be taken, and the other will be left." 36 37They, answering, asked him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there will the vultures also be gathered together."
 
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Jake Arsenal

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The word is not important. The concept/doctrine is.

The word is not important?! The OP was about how you can read these words and see it any other way.

Words are important:
Do Penance vs. Repent (translations from the Latin and Greek)
Is there a difference?

I agree with the OP! Saying the rapture isn't being described in Mt 24 is so bizarre. It requires one to jump back and forth without justification in the middle of a chapter (24) swinging one way, saying this is for the church and all the sudden swinging to a far different position, that it's not for the church.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rapture vs Resurrection
Is there a difference?


Which is in our creeds? (Nicene)I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (Apostles')the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.


If you actually care what Jesus has to say on these matters(As the OP discussed Matthew 24) I recommend reading both Matthew 24 and 25 as these chapters are one teaching and one response to the disciples' question.

Consider the parable of the ten virgins closely.
 
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Jamdoc

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The word is not important?! The OP was about how you can read these words and see it any other way.

Words are important:
Do Penance vs. Repent (translations from the Latin and Greek)
Is there a difference?



1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rapture vs Resurrection
Is there a difference?


Which is in our creeds? (Nicene)I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. (Apostles')the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.


If you actually care what Jesus has to say on these matters(As the OP discussed Matthew 24) I recommend reading both Matthew 24 and 25 as these chapters are one teaching and one response to the disciples' question.

Consider the parable of the ten virgins closely.

The First resurrection takes place just before the rapture. Rapture is more or less just the commonly held term for those who are still alive at the time that Jesus appears in the clouds. They don't die, but they are changed, and they are caught up to meet Jesus (and those who were resurrected) in the air.

and you know.. I am the OP.
I can reconcile 1 Thessalonians 4 with Matthew 24, in fact I find it foolish NOT to reconcile the two since Paul seems to be evoking the Olivet Discourse in his letters.

You pointed out one of my other favorites for timing btw.
Daniel 12, shows that the tribulations begin before the resurrection happens.
I haven't actually come across any scripture that conflicts with pre wrath timing.

There is scripture that challenges post trib (Comparisons to days of Noah and Lot with the example of marrying .. that will not be happening when God is pouring out His wrath).
and scripture that challenges pre trib (Matthew 24:29)
But pre wrath reconciles everything.
 
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rom8:38

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Not post trib, pre wrath.
Matthew 24 has 0 to do with Revelation 19, but Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 parallel each other pretty much exactly. The only thing missing is the Gathering of the Elect in Revelation 6, but in Revelation 7 you see the results of it.
A second view of the same event is in Revelation 14:14-20. The first reaping is done by Jesus and they are not put through the wrath of God. The second reaping is done by an angel and those are the "clusters of the vine of the earth" that is, the unbelieving earth dwellers, they're put through the wrath of God.
Revelation 15 again shows the results of the rapture


Most people at least (some post trib think this scene takes place on earth) agree that this shows saints in heaven who went through the tribulations (that is the persecution by men/wrath of Satan, not the wrath of God)
Rememeber that chapters did not exist when this was written. So it follows right after the appearing of our Lord in the clouds in Revelation 14:14.


We have 2 witnesses of the same timing of tribulation, rapture, wrath of God.

it is SO clear that I cannot see any other view.

But this parallel is just uncanny, and I think even Paul was evoking the Olivet Discourse in his epistles to the Thessalonians.

I would agree with you on two points: that Mt. 24 is not describing any kind of 'rapture,[ and that Revelation is not in chronological order. I don't know if this thread is purely for eschatological scholars, but I think giving your audience a little background on Revelation would help others understand what is considered a very complex book.

First, that it is a description of the 'end times,' i.e. the time between the first and second comings of Christ, which includes descriptions of all the spiritual forces that are driving the events within that time frame. One of them is Satan, and we become privy to his oppositional tactics in his attempts to distort and misuse what God creates.

That it travels time: past, present and future, but as you say, not linearly - describing even the history of creation and the unfolding of its dramatic climax, as we watch God's great plan for humankind come to completion. Revelation is God's last evangelical appeal to unbelievers.

It is also the only book that describes Jesus as He is today. It is also rich in symbolism: many times Bible tells us exactly what they mean; other times, we must cross-check how they are used in other scriptures for right interpretation.

Given the human tendency to quantify and qualify meanings to suit one's point of view, biblical scholars have formed various 'camps,' each with their own symbolic discernment. As I understand it, the 'Preterist' camp believes that the events in Revelation all occurred during the apostles - thus, denying the validity of Christ's second coming, the resurrection of humankind, and the creation of new heavens and earth.

The Historicist says Revelation the historical events from the time of the apostles through the creation of the new heavens and earth. The Futurist ascribes to a view that none of the events of Revelation has taken place yet. Finally, the Idealist states that Revelation is a portrayal of the general struggle between good and evil and the suffering of the modern church (taking place in present time) until Christ's second coming. Also, each camp has sub-branches as well.

Complicated, yes? That is why I try to understand this book line-by-line, and pray about it to come to what is hopefully a spiritual conclusion.

Lastly, Revelation shifts back in forth in time and between earthly and heavenly perspectives.

Jamdoc, forgive my indulgence, and I am certainly no scholar, but I just thought this prelude would benefit those who don't visit this book often. I also realize that I did not answer the 'rapture' question. I will soon.

God Bless.
 
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