God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Nathan@work said:

Was Jesus death real? If it was, then He could not have still had eternal life in Him.

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Do we have eternal life within us? I'm at the point where I get to contemplate my own death as a much nearer reality than most people. What does it mean to have eternal life but face physical death?

God's wrath, in the Lutheran understanding, isn't so much about God being angry; but has to do with looking upon the Deus Absconditus, the "Hidden God". God "hidden" behind the veil of the Law. When sinful man looks upon God through the Law, he beholds a God of wrath. For the Law says "do this" and it is not done, and since it is not done, we find in ourselves the reality of sin--the reality of sin before a righteous and holy God who has said what we ought to do, and which is not done. It is also, perhaps somewhat paradoxically, also Deus Nudus--"Naked God". That is God in His infinite, incomprehensible majesty and glory--which man cannot approach. For God says to Moses, "No one can see Me and live", and when Moses was beckoned before the burning bush he was told to remove his sandals for it was hallowed ground.

But beholding God naked and hidden in His glory, righteousness, power, etc--through the Law is not the same thing as seeing God rightly. It is beholding the king seated high on a throne, a judge up on his bench; and we, estranged and rightfully accused as sinners stand before the Great King and Judge--fear and dread are proper responses.

But what of the heart of God? If we have beheld the stern "face" of God, through the dark veil and storm cloud of the Law in our sinful nakedness; how can we then behold God in His heart?

"No man has at anytime seen God, but God, the only-begotten Son, He has made Him known" - John 1:18

"If you have seen Me you have seen the Father" - John 14:9

It is therefore through faith in Christ that we behold the heart of God, to see His true face. The loving Abba who comes before us in and through His Son, God giving Himself away in love through the cross.

It is here, in Christ, that we no longer see the Naked and Hidden God, but the Clothed and Revealed God (Deus Vestitus et Revelatus). God revealed and clothed in the weak and lowly flesh of Jesus Christ, who in His humility, love, and generosity throws Himself away in love to the shame of the cross.

Thus to speak of Christ bearing the "punishment for sins" or "bearing God's wrath" would, in a Lutheran context, mean simply that Christ in His participation with us in our humanity comes and enjoins to Himself such weakness as the weakness of the cross, and to die as one lowly upon the cross.

The Law brings death, not because the purpose of the Law is death. As St. Paul says the Law was given for life, but sin seeking opportunity through the Law brings death. So Christ died, not as a sinner condemned under the Law, but rather as the Just One who has made perfect satisfaction by His own righteousness under the Law. And nevertheless, the Just One does not keep Himself to Himself, but gives Himself away into death--our death, the death common to us all.

Christ is not punished by God.
But Christ does bear upon Himself our own wretchedness before the Law, to crucify it to His cross in His body unto death.

It is less about judiciousness, and more about God's personal and loving investment toward us by His grace, to take hold of sinful men and justify them by His grace, out of His great love for all sinners.

As I see it, some of the fatal flaws of Penal Substitution--as commonly espoused in many modern circles--is the lack of critically important theological context and nuance.

Jesus was not the Father's whipping boy.
God was not just so very angry that He had to hurt someone, and Jesus steps up to be that person.

It's about very carefully understanding what "wrath" is, the proper distinction between Law and Gospel, about a proper Theology of the Cross and rejecting theologies of glory.

It's about God, in Christ, come in weakness and humility; and our beholding God rightly in Jesus--God through the eyes of faith rather than God through the eyes of our flesh and sin.

"That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the invisible things of God as though they were clearly perceptible in those things which have actually happened (Rom. 1:20; cf. 1 Cor 1:21-25). This is apparent in the example of those who were called theologians and still were called fools by the Apostle in Rom. 1:22. Furthermore, the invisible things of God are virtue, godliness, wisdom, justice, goodness, and so forth. The recognition of these things does not make one worthy or wise." - Luther's Heidelberg Disputations, Thesis 19

"He deserves to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross. The manifest and visible things of God are placed in opposition to the invisible, namely, His human nature, weakness, foolishness. The Apostle in 1 Cor. 1:25 calls them the weakness and folly of God. Because men misused the knowledge of God through works, God wished again to be recognized in suffering, and to condemn wisdom concerning invisible things by means of wisdom concerning visible things, so that those who did not honor God as manifested in His works should honor Him as He is hidden in His suffering (absconditum in passionibus). As the Apostle says in 1 Cor. 1:21, 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.' Now it is not sufficient for anyone, and it does him no good to recognize God in His glory and majesty, unless he recognizes Him in the humility and shame of the cross. Thus God destroys the wisdom of the wise, as Isa. 45:15 says, 'Truly, Thou art a God who hidest Thyself.' So also, in John 14:8, where Philip spoke according to the theology of glory, 'Show us the Father' Christ forhwith set aside his flighty thought about seeing God elsewhere and led him to Himself, saying, 'Philip, he who has seen Me has seen the Father' (John 14:9). For this reason true theology and recognition of GOd are in the crucified Christ, as it is also stated in John 10 (John 14:6), 'No one comes to the Father but by Me', 'I am the door' (John 10:9), and so forth." - .ibid, Thesis 20

-CryptoLutheran

chevyontheriver said:

Do we have eternal life within us? I'm at the point where I get to contemplate my own death as a much nearer reality than most people. What does it mean to have eternal life but face physical death?

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We do - it is Christ in us.

He suffered death so we would not. Since it is finished, it is now done - we who have Christ will not die but be transformed.

Our bodies, flesh, will die. But that should not concern a Child of God because we know that once we are free of this body we will receive a new incorruptible one. This is why Paul talked about actually wanting to die, but knew it was better for the Philippians(and others) that he remain.

Dorothy Mae said:

Not a single verse says God was wrathful. Not one says He poured out that wrath on Jesus. Not one.

I wondered if there were any and no one could point out a verse describing Him as wrathful or even angry and certainly not pouring it out on Jesus.

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Sometimes the Bible does not have to hit us over the head with a baseball bat in order to get what it is saying. Again, it's a logical concluding inference off several verses.

“...yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4).

This is Jesus being punished in our place. Jesus was whipped and beaten on our account of our sins. Punishment suggests a wrath of God towards sin. If this was not the case, then why did Jesus have to suffer greatly for us? Suffering for our sins suggests a punishment of sin in our place on account of our sin. God hates sin. This is why God is angry at the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11).

Galatians 3:13 says that Jesus is made as a curse for us. God is angry at things that are cursed according to Scripture.

“And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:” (Deuteronomy 29:27).

We are saved from God's wrath through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:9). If Jesus saved us from God's Wrath, then it is logical to conclude that Jesus took the Wrath of God for us in our place. Well, that is if you believe the Substitutionary Atonement.

Actually, the passages about God's wrath typically all speak about a future one, not one in the past or present.

[1Th 1:10 ESV] and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

This is such a frustrating thread. Dorothy, you've been given some good answers. At least admit that you were never interested in having a real conversation with anyone.

The Bible doesn't say trinity or rapture. Do you believe in either of those. Sometimes the exact answer isn't laid out in one verse.

Also, I must have missed the part where you went to your pastor and asked him to explain the dilemma. Did you do that? Or are you just sewing bitterness toward your pastor? As a modern Berean, have you let your pastor know he's wrong?

wonderkins said:

This is such a frustrating thread. Dorothy, you've been given some good answers. At least admit that you were never interested in having a real conversation with anyone.

The Bible doesn't say trinity or rapture. Do you believe in either of those. Sometimes the exact answer isn't laid out in one verse.

Also, I must have missed the part where you went to your pastor and asked him to explain the dilemma. Did you do that? Or are you just sewing bitterness toward your pastor? As a modern Berean, have you let your pastor know he's wrong?

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Most of the time when iron sharpens iron, sparks fly.

It is not easy to go to a preacher and talk with him about such things. I have done it before and it typically goes nowhere.

Also, sometimes what seems as an intentional debate is simply nailing down what a person is thinking. I have done it multiple times.

It seems like arguing, but really it is just trying to hash out all the nooks and crannies of the topic in order to make sure there is not something missing that might make me think otherwise.

Not that I am trying to speak for Dorothy.

Nathan@work said:

Most of the time when iron sharpens iron, sparks fly.

It is not easy to go to a preacher and talk with him about such things. I have done it before and it typically goes nowhere.

Also, sometimes what seems as an intentional debate is simply nailing down what a person is thinking. I have done it multiple times.

It seems like arguing, but really it is just trying to hash out all the nooks and crannies of the topic in order to make sure there is not something missing that might make me think otherwise.

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I get that. But it appears that every single answer has been absolutely rejected. Possibly without consideration because she didn't see the answer she wanted? Someone laid out that the meaning of propitiation. It was good, but flat out rejected because it wasn't the word wrath.

That doesn't seem like iron sharpening iron to me. More like asking a question but already having my answer so when people start interacting, I can just say nope, nope, nope.

She even rejected the name YHWH for crying out loud.

wonderkins said:

I get that. But it appears that every single answer has been absolutely rejected. Possibly without consideration because she didn't see the answer she wanted? Someone laid out that the meaning of propitiation. It was good, but flat out rejected because it wasn't the word wrath.

That doesn't seem like iron sharpening iron to me. More like asking a question but already having my answer so when people start interacting, I can just say nope, nope, nope.

She even rejected the name YHWH for crying out loud.

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I understand.

Typically, I do start a topic with a pre-disposition. I have personally learned that it is not 'nice' to engage under a cloak of being persuaded if I really cannot be, unless I state so from the begining.

But other times I am pretty set in my thoughts, but just have not got to the place where I am absolute, so I will continue to knock down ideas.

A lot of times, when it just seems like I am doing it on purpose, it is because I have really thought it through and most of the answers I am getting I have already settled in my heart/mind. So it seems 'easy' for me to pass by them, but only because I have already run out the logical end of it.

Anyways, like I said, I can see her side unless it really is just intentional. I did not get that from her posts so far though.

Dorothy Mae said:

The Bible says what we are to know. Adding is going away from the truth.

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Well, it's not called adding (i.e. I take this to mean you are saying that “I am adding to God's Word”), but it is called a logical inference based on what other verses say. Some folks do not think horror movies are a sin because the Bible does not condemn them using explicit wording like: “Thou shalt not watch horror movies.” But it is a logical inference that they are condemned based on the light of looking at a bunch of verses that indirectly condemn them. The same can be said of inappropriate content or doing drugs.

Bible Highlighter said:

“...yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4).

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You said:

Says we, people, thought God had afflicted him. We is the noun. Thought is the verb. Afflicted is what we thought. That is what it says.

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The word “we” is referring to the believer.
While this would have been the Israelite during that time, I believe it spoke ahead to all believers;
And Jesus says that if anyone does not receive us, they are not receiving Jesus.

“He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40).

In addition, Isaiah was writing divinely inspired Scripture and I believe He was referring to how God's people would view the sacrifice of Christ. This does not mean that God's people are in error for viewing the Lord Jesus as stricken, and smitten of God (Which is what you are implying).

Anyways, your interpretation sounds like a desperate attempt to distance yourself from the truth what this verse is actually saying all because you don't like the idea that God sends forth wrath against sin within the body of Jesus on the cross. For why else would Jesus feel separated from God the Father? The Judgment of God was upon the sins of the people within His body when He took our place.

No it does not. You assume the only way God could steel himself to judge and punish sin is to work himself up to a wrathful frenzy.

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God is angry at the wicked every day.

God is angry with the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11).

Why is he angry at the wicked? Because of their sin (ungodliness) and rebellion against God.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men (Romans 1:18).

Sins is what hardens a person's heart.

“To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.” (Hebrews 3:13).
“Harden not your hearts, (Hebrews 3:8).

A hardened heart stores up the wrath of God against a person.

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath” (Romans 2:5).

Proverbs 6:16-19 says,
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

• A proud look,
• a lying tongue,
• and hands that shed innocent blood,
• An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
• feet that be swift in running to mischief,
• A false witness that speaketh lies,
• and he that soweth discord among brethren.

So if God hates these kinds of sins, then it is only natural that Jesus paid the price for these sins on the cross, and God who hates these kinds of sins would naturally hate these kinds of sins of the people that Jesus took upon His own body so as to pay the price for them.

You said:

That God cannot be as calm as an ordinary human judge when rendering judgement is deeply underestimating Him. It is possible to be rendering a just judgement and weep.
Read Gods response to the sin of the world in Noah’s day. He was grieved in His heart.

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I would say that God was not only grieved by the sin of those who perished in the global flood, but He also was angered at sin because that is what we see in other places of the Bible involving man's sin.

“For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.” (Psalms 78:58).

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31).

You said:

That doesn’t say God is angry at things cursed. It says He judged the land bringing a curse on it.

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Nope. Sorry, your denial of the verse does not undo what it says, especially when we look at the context.

You said:

But that is not what the scripture says. That is my point. No scripture says this apparently. A just judge isn’t usually angry.

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God is able to be angry and yet be in perfect control of that anger and or be justified in what He does in anger because God is incapable of making mistakes. God is perfect, holy, and righteous in all He does even when He is angry at sin.

chevyontheriver said:

I was waiting for someone to bring up that particular psalm. Your problem in using it is the context of the whole psalm. Jesus spoke the first line of the psalm, and if that were all he intended you might have a tiny case. Applying the whole of Psalm 22 is a different story.

To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
1* My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.
7* All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"
9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts.
10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced* my hands and feet--
17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
18* they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life* from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul* from the horns of the wild oxen!
22* I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted* shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. *
28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
29 Yea, to him* shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

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That psalm was prophetical and is why Jesus said it.
He wasn’t just citing random scripture