Original vs. Ancestral Sin

fhansen

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Except 1 John ch 1 says if we say we have no sin we are lying... that applies to us all.
Shalom.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:8-9

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.” 1 John 3:9-10
 
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Hmm

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The late Norman Geisler explained it as the image of God in man was “effaced” through the fall, not “erased” in him. However true that is, it’s very memorable and catchy. An effective teaching tool.

Yes, that's a very catchy encapsulation of the idea! And the idea rings true as well.
 
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Yes, that's a very catchy encapsulation of the idea! And the idea rings true as well.

I always remember the way Paul Tillich put it: we have a destiny to sin. I know he rejected Augustine's rendering, so I wonder if he was influenced by the notion of ancestral sin.

By the by, this has been a great thread. I've learned a lot.
 
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fhansen

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We aren’t born guilty of Adams original sin of eating forbidden fruit. Scripture is clear we are judged for sins we commit in our own body, and says God doesn’t hold us guilty for sins of our father’s.
What we are born with from Adam is an inherited sin nature that causes us to sin, and need a savior.
Shalom.
We inherit the sin: the abnormality, deviation, or disorder, of separation from God. Man was made for communion with God and yet we enter this world apart from Him, not even knowing Him, lacking the “knowledge of God”, lost, sick, dead without first being aware of it. And this disordered state must be resolved:
Now this is eternal life: that they know you,the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

By knowing the true God we come to believe in, trust/hope in, and, finally and most importantly, to love Him. By this we are reconciled with God as we enter that partnership that constitutes the right and just order of things in creation. This reconciliation is why Jesus came.
 
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fhansen

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I always remember the way Paul Tillich put it: we have a destiny to sin. I know he rejected Augustine's rendering, so I wonder if he was influenced by the notion of ancestral sin.

By the by, this has been a great thread. I've learned a lot.
Somehow I doubt the Eastern Church would quite agree with that. FWIW, the Catholic Church wouldn’t teach that man was predestined by God to sin anyway, but instead that He foreknew that we would and allowed it, for a time and for His purposes, in order to ultimately bring an even greater good out of it in the end.
 
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BobRyan

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I had assumed that every Christian believed in original sin but I came across a discussion here on CF that mentioned a different paradigm: ancestral sin. The discussion was very brief so I thought I'd create a thread to learn more.

What I understood from the discussion was that original sin is a Western concept, believed in by the Catholic and the Protestant churches, and involves original guilt as well as death - so we all inherit Adam's guilt and all deserve final judgement merely for being born.

Ancestral sin OTOH is believed in in the East, by the Orthodox churches, and the idea of this is that it brings death to humanity but not guilt.

Is that a fair representation of the two views?

I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask on this:

Does ancestral sin imply that we can, in theory at least, live a guilt free life? It seems to me that children and people with severe mental impairment, at least, do.

Suppose that ancestral sin is correct and we're not guilty of anything at birth. Do we still have to deal with the consequences of Adam's sin because it is after all something that has shaped the world as we experience it? For example, when Adam introduced self-centredness into the world is this not the ultimate cause of the institutions in society today that encourage selfishness and which have made us all selfish to some extent?

First of all - look at the question the other way around to help clarify.

"IF there were NO Gospel" if mankind was left "doomed" and no Savior for mankind provided by God (so mankind like the fallen angels ... doomed). Then in your example when a baby is born and then dies a few months later having committed no willful act of sin (but having a sinful nature all the same.. a nature bent toward rebellion against God ) -- are they saved without a Savior in that case?
 
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BobRyan

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I’ve always considered Jesus living a guilt free life as proof that it’s possible for humanity to do likewise. That doesn’t mean we have done it and that doesn’t mean we ever will, but a sin free life exists in the sphere of possibilities for man, hence the reality of Jesus’ sin free human life.

What Christ assumed He also redeemed (namely our humanity,) what He doesn’t assume, He did not redeem. I don’t think Jesus leaned into His God nature in order to live a sinless lifestyle, rather He rested on His Godlike character, the exact reflection of the Fathers likeness.

I think some definitional flavours of original sin actually destroy the incarnation.

Yes but did Jesus prove that a person who is not born again, who only has a sinful nature , can live in perfect obedience to God? I think that is really the issue in the OP.

On the other hand - if one is born-again, a new creation, at war with their sinful nature Rom 7, then Rom 8:4-12 says that they most certainly have the Holy Spirit's power to "sin not".
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Yesterday was the Expulsion from Eden as the Great Fast began last night with Forgiveness Vespers.

On this day, we remember the expulsion of the first-formed Adam from the Garden of Eden.
Let the world now bitterly mourn with Eve and Adam,
for it fell together with them who fell by sweet eating.
By Your ineffable compassion, O Christ our God, make us worthy of the delights of Paradise and have mercy, as You alone love mankind. Amen.

One of the hymns sums up the Fall and the Salvation in a single verse
We were expelled of old, O Lord, * from the Garden of Eden,* for wrongly eating from the tree.* But, O my God and Savior,* You once again have restored us * through Your Cross and Your Passion.* Thereby, O Master, fortify * and enable us purely to finish Lent * and to worship Your divine resurrection,* Pascha our saving Passover,* by the prayers of Your Mother.

If only the Lenten Fast would be over that quickly! :)

Forgiveness Vespers
Please forgive me a sinner and I forgive as Christ forgives.
 
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Cormack

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Yes but did Jesus prove that a person who is not born again, who only has a sinful nature , can live in perfect obedience to God?

Christ assumed the nature of “the seed of Abraham.” The seed of Abraham aren’t born regenerate, rather they’re born in some natural state of being that Jesus Himself could also assume. Assuming that state is how He can redeem and intercede properly for humanity, since He was in all things tempted as we are.

Again from my earlier messages...

Exempting Christ from fully having taken on the nature of Abrahams seed is one tactic to help mitigate the damage done by the doctrine of original sin or total depravity, I’d sooner do away with those two doctrines.
A doctrine of sin nature, original sin, total depravity etc that’s too robust ruins the incarnation, causing us to picture Christ as being superhuman in some fashion so as to preserve our anthropology.

I’d much sooner junk in what appears to be an unbiblical, convoluted, anti human anthropology than risk denying that Jesus appeared as truly man, truly God.

Christ centric beliefs outweighing man centric beliefs.
 
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BobRyan

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A doctrine of sin nature, original sin, total depravity etc that’s too robust ruins the incarnation, causing us to picture Christ as being superhuman in some fashion so as to preserve our anthropology.

Christ was the only sinless being ever to be human. That is "not an accident". He was born without a sinful nature. So then "no bent" toward sin.

Adam was also created without a sinful nature - "no bent toward sin".

Christ succeeded in the same sinless nature - in which Adam failed. Though Christ had the physical weaknesses of the fallen nature - he had nothing at all of the sinful nature because if He had that - He Himself would need a savior to rescue Him from a nature "bent toward rebellion against God".

We are by contrast "born in sin" as David said - and Eph 2 makes the case that we are enslaved to sin by our nature.

Rom 8:4-11 says that the person with nothing but a sinful nature "does not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

But more than this the Gospel not only has Christ being sinless and providing forgiveness to us - but it also has God supernaturally creating "the new creation" the new heart in us - the new birth. So then in our born-again state the new creation, new-nature can be empowered by the Holy Spirit and follow in the steps of Christ - supernaturally enabled. It is at that point that as 1 John 2 says we can "walk as He walked". So then Christ is the model, is the example for the born-again saved person showing us how we are to walk "in Christ".

Paul says "no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" Gal 2:20 --
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I had assumed that every Christian believed in original sin but I came across a discussion here on CF that mentioned a different paradigm: ancestral sin. The discussion was very brief so I thought I'd create a thread to learn more.

What I understood from the discussion was that original sin is a Western concept, believed in by the Catholic and the Protestant churches, and involves original guilt as well as death - so we all inherit Adam's guilt and all deserve final judgement merely for being born.

Ancestral sin OTOH is believed in in the East, by the Orthodox churches, and the idea of this is that it brings death to humanity but not guilt.

Is that a fair representation of the two views?

I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask on this:

Does ancestral sin imply that we can, in theory at least, live a guilt free life? It seems to me that children and people with severe mental impairment, at least, do.

Suppose that ancestral sin is correct and we're not guilty of anything at birth. Do we still have to deal with the consequences of Adam's sin because it is after all something that has shaped the world as we experience it? For example, when Adam introduced self-centredness into the world is this not the ultimate cause of the institutions in society today that encourage selfishness and which have made us all selfish to some extent?
I find it difficult to believe in original sin for the reasons you have just laid out , the innocent are guilty. I side with living in a fallen world that can drag a person into its clutches of sin which leads to the second death. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came and destroyed the second death for all who belive and receive His Holy Spirit. Blessings.
 
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com7fy8

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so we all inherit Adam's guilt and all deserve final judgement merely for being born.
"through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin," (in Romans 5:12)

"by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (in Romans 5:19)

So, from these scriptures I see that sin spread from Adam to other humans. And I would say sin has guilt. So, if he spread sin to someone, guilt came with it.

Adam is the origin, plus the ancestor. So, it is both.

So, does sin start at birth?

My opinion > Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" > in Ephesians 2:2. This spirit of evil, of sin, of selfishness . . . is spread by the parents to their child . . . at conception. And I think we can see how a child tends to be mainly about self, even creative in how to rebel, never having been taught.

"death spread to all men, because all sinned" (in Romans 5:12)

Why? Because "all" had the spirit of evil in them, from conception . . . corrupting their spiritual character. It came to them spiritually from their parents. None were ever truly innocent, because only Jesus is truly innocent.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Yes. We are surrounded by sin and sinners from birth., "in sins my mother bore me.. (Psalm 50 LXX)"


Although the thrust of this article is elsewhere, I think it could shed some light on Orthodox understanding.
Ancestral vs Original Sin
If I may, Jewish tradition tells us David's mother comitted adultry. This is why David was shunned in his family and why David laments in this Psalm. Jesus Christ of Nazareth reminds us that children are innocent and that the Kingdom of God is filled with them. Be blessed.
 
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pescador

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Except 1 John ch 1 says if we say we have no sin we are lying... that applies to us all.
Shalom.

1 John 1 was written to unbelievers. Christians are considered sinless by God since we are in Christ.

"This is what we proclaim to you: what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and our hands have touched (concerning the word of life— and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us). What we have seen and heard we announce to you too, so that you may have fellowship with us (and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ). Thus we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:1-5

One would never write the emphasized parts to people who were already believers.
 
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com7fy8

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Adam was also created without a sinful nature - "no bent toward sin".

Christ succeeded in the same sinless nature - in which Adam failed.
But Adam was a creature.

Jesus is God's own Son, with the nature of our Creator who is incapable of evil > James 1:13. So, I offer how Jesus was not only sinless, but sin-incapable.
 
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Rom 5:12

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned ...

(ESV)

12 It was through one man that guilt came into the world; and, since death came owing to guilt, death was handed on to all mankind by one man. (All alike were guilty men ...

(Knox)

12 Therefore, just as sin entered into the cosmos through one man, and death through sin, so also death pervaded all humanity, whereupon all sinned;

(David Bentley Hart)

???
 
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fhansen

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Yesterday was the Expulsion from Eden as the Great Fast began last night with Forgiveness Vespers.

On this day, we remember the expulsion of the first-formed Adam from the Garden of Eden.
Let the world now bitterly mourn with Eve and Adam,
for it fell together with them who fell by sweet eating.
By Your ineffable compassion, O Christ our God, make us worthy of the delights of Paradise and have mercy, as You alone love mankind. Amen.

One of the hymns sums up the Fall and the Salvation in a single verse
We were expelled of old, O Lord, * from the Garden of Eden,* for wrongly eating from the tree.* But, O my God and Savior,* You once again have restored us * through Your Cross and Your Passion.* Thereby, O Master, fortify * and enable us purely to finish Lent * and to worship Your divine resurrection,* Pascha our saving Passover,* by the prayers of Your Mother.

If only the Lenten Fast would be over that quickly! :)

Forgiveness Vespers
Please forgive me a sinner and I forgive as Christ forgives.
This is good. Thank you. The Catholic Church has a concept known as "Felix Culpa", meaning "blessed fault" or "happy fault". It's the idea that the first sin or fall of man, while wrong, was nonetheless a good thing for creation in the bigger picture. One place it's been used is as part of a proclamation called the "Exsultent": "O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer."
 
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pescador

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But Adam was a creature.

Jesus is God's own Son, with the nature of our Creator who is incapable of evil > James 1:13. So, I offer how Jesus was not only sinless, but sin-incapable.

"For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

If Jesus was "sin-incapable" then His being tempted and refusing to give in to that temptation would have no meaning. Instead He was tempted to succumb to sin in every way yet overcame that desire.
 
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If Jesus was "sin-incapable" then His being tempted and refusing to give in to that temptation would have no meaning. Instead He was tempted to succumb to sin in every way yet overcame that desire.

Which would be, in essence, a far more admirable, impressive and incredible thing than being incapable of succumbing to sin. Just like a good movie. The most mind-numbing, boring movies (at least to me) are those that lack any real sense of danger or struggle.

Superman, Captain marvel and the like send my brain to the morgue, there’s generally no drama, tension or point to the entire journey, they’re just an enormous tank that runs over everything.

Believing those things about Jesus makes the incarnation into a bit of a sham, like the idea that says Jesus didn’t really come in the flesh.

I’m not really interested in talking anyone out of their belief that Jesus was some kind of moral tank, but to defend that view for the sake of original sin, not worth it in my mind.
 
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