Is it true that if there was no real suffering there would be no meaning at all?

I'm not clear on what you are asking.
I believe that suffering is a means to an end, but not an end in itself.
Sin broke Creation and there is no completely painless way to restore it, but God does not seek out unnecessary pain either for Himself or us.

It's not that suffering creates meaning, or that suffering in itself is the meaning, but that there is no growth without pain. There is no change without loss. We cannot be perfected unless what is lesser is shaken. Suffering is an ingredient that is necessary, but in itself must one day perish because it will no longer serve a purpose. Suffering exists because we choose sin over God's way, and only by engaging in this process can we ever truly have ourselves. Both sin and suffering are evil that exist because they produce our ultimate good.

sin causes suffering and not only in us but also in God. Suffering is used, because everything is used by God, but only for a time.

The great promises is bliss without suffering.

Revelation 21:1-7
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children."

Are you asking if you can have something without it's opposite? Can there be a "why" without "why not"? i.e. can you have freedom from pain without pain? Can you enjoy a drink, if you are never thirsty? Can you appreciate having, if you can never experience loss? I think it was necessary to create a world where opposites occur, otherwise there is no free will or true joy.

Sorry if I missed your point completely.

Jeshu said:

sin causes suffering and not only in us but also in God. Suffering is used, because everything is used by God, but only for a time.

The great promises is bliss without suffering.

Revelation 21:1-7
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”


He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children."

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A suffering God is not a simple God. If God suffers, it's for eternity as if His suffering has a beginning or an end then He changes. That creates a lot of difficult theological issues that need to be resolved.

Fervent said:

A suffering God is not a simple God. If God suffers, it's for eternity as if His suffering has a beginning or an end then He changes. That creates a lot of difficult theological issues that need to be resolved.

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Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen your Father and He went on to suffer and die. This is what sinful humanities does with the truth of His existence they kill The truth of God with their lies. Of course God suffers that, it is the very reason Hell has existence.

i can see no reason why God can't be a sin suffering God or why that would change Him in any way. Like Jesus shows us God is Victorious over our sin, truly almighty.

Micah 7:1-4
What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.

Jeshu said:

Jesus said if you have seen me then you have seen your Father and He went on to suffer and die. This is what sinful humanities does with the truth of His existence they kill The truth of God with their lies. Of course God suffers that, it is the very reason Hell has existence.

i can see no reason why God can't be a sin suffering God or why that would change Him in any way. Like Jesus shows us God is Victorious over our sin, truly almighty.

Micah 7:1-4
What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
The faithful have been swept from the land;
not one upright person remains.
Everyone lies in wait to shed blood;
they hunt each other with nets.
Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.

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I didn't say God doesn't suffer, simply that a suffering God is not a simple God. The prospect of God's suffering raises numerous issues with theology, though as you correctly point out theology is nothing more than man's attempt to best understand what God has presented to us and can lead us to false conclusions. The question is more something to wrestle with than come up with a definitive answer.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If God made real suffering happen rather than only infinite illusionary happiness is it because there'd be no meaning to anything otherwise?

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I do not think God made real suffering happen.

Suffering is a product of evil.

Then humans can go the wrong way with their suffering, or God can use it for His good while also relieving people of their suffering.

What is meaningful is how God turned things around, for Joseph > Genesis 37-50.

Fervent said:

I didn't say God doesn't suffer, simply that a suffering God is not a simple God. The prospect of God's suffering raises numerous issues with theology, though as you correctly point out theology is nothing more than man's attempt to best understand what God has presented to us and can lead us to false conclusions. The question is more something to wrestle with than come up with a definitive answer.

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Theologically God does not have emotions, so He does not suffer. He also does not need anything, He is all powerful. And yes I know in the Bible it attributes emotions such as anger etc to God that is called anthropomorphism and that is done to explain a concept to man who has those emotions. Does God Have Emotions?

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If God made real suffering happen rather than only infinite illusionary happiness is it because there'd be no meaning to anything otherwise?

In other words, why didn't God just put himself in a infinitely paradise dream and make it so that he himself would never be aware hes dreaming?

Does God actually experience boredom or loneliness without his creation? If he does, why did he create real suffering instead of just putting himself in a perfect dream world with no pain ever in it?

Is it because there is no meaning to a world with no real suffering? Or is there actually meaning in a world with no suffering?

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I think that you have been playing too many video games.

Could you define the difference between your "real suffering", and just "suffering"?

Could you explain how you see the relation between free will in human beings, and suffering?

Could you explain how you see the relationship between suffering, and learning?

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If God made real suffering happen rather than only infinite illusionary happiness is it because there'd be no meaning to anything otherwise?

In other words, why didn't God just put himself in a infinitely paradise dream and make it so that he himself would never be aware hes dreaming?

Does God actually experience boredom or loneliness without his creation? If he does, why did he create real suffering instead of just putting himself in a perfect dream world with no pain ever in it?

Is it because there is no meaning to a world with no real suffering? Or is there actually meaning in a world with no suffering?

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Its not my understanding from what I have read and researched from the scriptures that God had any suffering in mind when he created Adam and Eve. I don't know about other people but from what I see from God's creation of Adam and Eve it was never his will or purpose for Adam and Eve to sin and die. Genesis 1:28 says, "God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth." God said Genesis 1:28 to Adam and Eve before they had sinned so God's purpose for Adam and Eve and their offspring was to fill the earth with sinless people and as they got more numerous to extent the paradise like park called Eden until the whole earth was a paradise, filled with sinless humans. So if Adam and Eve had not sinned, Adam and Eve and their offspring would be living on a paradise earth, with no individual human growing old and dying or getting sick and dying, there would have been no violence, so no wars, no hunger or starvation, no homelessness, no human governments dominating man to his injury. If Adam Eve had not sinned, none of the suffering we see today would exist. So I disagree with the idea that God made suffering or caused suffering to exist.

Sabertooth said:

I'm not clear on what you are asking.
I believe that suffering is a means to an end, but not an end in itself.
Sin broke Creation and there is no completely painless way to restore it, but God does not seek out unnecessary pain either for Himself or us.

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your point that suffering is a means to an end, not an end itself, offers a comforting perspective. It suggests a journey through adversity toward a promised restoration. How do you reconcile the transient nature of suffering with the eternal promises of God?

wizardbizzom said:

How do you reconcile the transient nature of suffering with the eternal promises of God?

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It is just like how some natural medical procedures are painful...

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If God made real suffering happen rather than only infinite illusionary happiness is it because there'd be no meaning to anything otherwise?

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There is meaning which does not depend on suffering. Jesus is perfectly pleasing to our Father, and Jesus means so much to God, and this does not depend on the existence of suffering. But awareness of suffering might help you to appreciate however you and your children are happy and healthy.

You don't have to know about suffering in order for your children to mean a lot to you.

But there is suffering of sin, while people get "worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (in 2 Timothy 3:13)

But there can be suffering we need to go through so we get God's correction changing our character to be like Jesus in God's love > Hebrews 12:4-14.

But going through suffering can help us to feel for others who are suffering. Jesus came here, in order to experience things we go through here, so that now Jesus can feel for us plus minister His own grace to us to bless us to do well with Him while we go through things > Hebrews 4:15

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If God made real suffering happen rather than only infinite illusionary happiness is it because there'd be no meaning to anything otherwise?

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Nothing that I know of, in the Bible, in orthodox theology, or in philosophy suggests that without suffering there would be no meaning. OTOH, there's nothing that clearly established that it would be possible for a world -- with sentient beings with actual agency -- could meaningfully exist without suffering.

In other words, AFAIK, there is a complete lack of genuinely reliable human knowledge on this question!

Truthspeaker72362 said:

In other words, why didn't God just put himself in a infinitely paradise dream and make it so that he himself would never be aware hes dreaming?

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But, there IS an answer for this: it's been long established, both philosophically and theologically, that God's omnipotence does not mean that He can 'create' absurdities or self-contradictions, and this psuedo-inability does not in any way impair His omnipotence.

However, the details of those arguments, while well-established and long accepted, get a bit complex for a forum like this.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Does God actually experience boredom or loneliness without his creation?

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Again, long answered: and the answer is, "No, He doesn't get bored or lonely . . . in the sense of needing distraction, company, or anything else." On the other hand, the Bible makes clear, that He wanted persons who freely, willingly, eagerly, competently, and undistractedly subjected themselves to Him, in His new Kingdom.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If he does, why did he create real suffering instead of just putting himself in a perfect dream world with no pain ever in it?

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The 'theodicy' question! People sometimes say that the book of Job answers this question. And I suppose it sorta does . . . but not in a way most people like. The answer Job accepts is, "You are too small, to understand any answer to that question. I'm God: accept and submit to that fact."

For what it's worth, it's not as though that any OTHER religion has a better answer:

• Atheistic materialism denies that suffering is a real 'thing', or at least not anything beyond electrical impulses found in the nerves of various random, accidental bio-machines.
• Hinduism denies that suffering is more than an illusion . . . and in any case, it's your fault because of your bad karma. (Other flavors of pantheism have similar 'answers'.)
• Judaism's answer is -- at least practically -- "Answers about Yahweh are for Jews. Who are you?"
• Islam's answer is "God did it. You have no say about it. Shut up already!"
• Neo-paganism is usually not thoughtful about such things, but neither Zeus, nor neo-Zeus and neither Odin, nor neo-Odin are big enough to do anything about suffering on a universal scale . . . though they certainly seem able to CAUSE suffering on a non-universal scale. In any case, Odin and his kin are soon to be smushed agonizingly in Ragnorak.
• und so weiter . . .
  

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Is it because there is no meaning to a world with no real suffering? Or is there actually meaning in a world with no suffering?

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What does your life even mean, now? If you can't answer THAT question, there's no possible answer to your more specific question.