God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Dorothy Mae · Mar 14, 2021

royal priest said:
If Romans 3:25 says God overlooked the sins committed before Jesus came, then God dealt with those sins when Jesus did come. Where is the logical fallacy?

Saying because Jesus was the atonement for sin doesn’t mean God was full of wrath.

ViaCrucis · Mar 14, 2021

renniks said:
It seems more accurate to say God took the anger that should have been on us on himself.

This is as close as we get in scripture to penal substitution.
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (Isaiah 53:10).

And that kinda depends how you read it. Yes God was pleased to bruise himself but why? Because of the results or because he was commiting some kind of cosmic child abuse?

If we had multiple verses saying God crushed Jesus, I could find penal substitution true. But it's really only one of many atonement theories scholars have developed. It seems true in one sense, but not another. God took our punishment. That's different than God dumped it on Jesus.

And that is more biblical. In the Incarnation God gives Himself away in love, and He does that by coming down and sharing in our weakness, suffering, and death. God lets Himself be swallowed up in death, in order that death should be swallowed up in victory.

The Law is death for sinners on account of sin; but Christ who knew no sin became sin for us, in order that we might become the righteousness of God. Christ descended fully into what we are--with the entirety of the weight of sin and condemnation that falls upon our shoulders because of that sin; and He who though being entirely without sin, willingly takes that crushing weight in the form of His cross. The sinless one dying like a sinner, between two brigands on a cross meant for the worst of the worst--and committed against Him by the violent powers of this world that wield violence and death like a cudgel.

He was therefore crushed for our inequities--because He so loved us.

It's not cosmic child abuse; but the willing and full participation of God in the broken world of humanity, full of sin and death--our world. God has invaded our world with an invasion of grace and love.

-CryptoLutheran

Dorothy Mae · Mar 14, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
The Tetragrammaton wasn't spoken by devout Jews in Jesus' time. Out of reverence to God Jews instead used substitution words, such as Adonai ("Lord"). This is still the case in modern Judaism, which is why devout Jews today when they pray the Shema say "Sh'ma Yisrael HaShem", the Hebrew word HaShem translates to "The Name". It's a secondary substitution: YHVH -> Adonai -> HaShem. It's also why many Jews choose to write G-d/G_d/Gd instead of "God"; it is an act of reverence.

Effectively, in Jesus' time, the only time the Divine Name was spoken was by the high priest when he entered into the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

This is also why the pronunciation for the Tetragrammaton has been lost to time, we don't know how YHVH was pronounced. Since the middle ages when the Masoretic Scribes tried to revive the Hebrew language, they introduced a system of vowel markers called niqqud to help facilitate with reading and pronunciation. As written Hebrew has no vowels, it is what is known as an abjad, a writing system consistent entirely of consonant symbols, where vowels are assumed by the reader. Those same scribes, the Masoretes, in the same Jewish tradition of venerating the name of God used the vowel markers for Adonai where YHVH is found in the Hebrew text. This was to tell the reader to say "Adonai" here as a substitute.

When early western Christian scholars began using the Masoretic texts, they saw YHVH with the niqqud for Adonai, and ended up transcribing it as written: Making it read YaHoVaH. This, then transcribed into Latin became IAHOVAH, then Iehovah, and English Jehovah. More modern attempts at pronunciation usually go with YaHWeH (Yahweh) or YaHVeH (Yahveh). Since the Hebrew character Vav/Waw can, depending, be either a /v/ or /w/.

So the reason Jesus doesn't use the Tetragrammaton was because Jews didn't, as a rule, use the Divine Name, and certainly would never use it casually. In addition, Jesus didn't speak Hebrew, but spoke Aramaic, in which case we would expect Aramaic terms for God to have been used by Jesus, which the Evangelists then translated into Greek for us as Theos ("God") and Kyrios ("Lord").

Which is why in the New Testament when the Old Testament is quoted (and more specifically the Septuagint version of the Old Testament) where YHVH appears in the Hebrew, the Septugaint and New Testament have Kyrios. Corresponding to the use of Adonai and the substitution words which were part of everyday Jewish religious life since hundreds of years before the time of our Lord Jesus' Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

I know all of that. Fact is, Jesus didn’t use it once. He taught us pointedly to call God “Father.” We do Him no honor by refusing to do so.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 14, 2021

renniks said:
It seems more accurate to say God took the anger that should have been on us on himself.

But He wasn’t angry.

This is as close as we get in scripture to penal substitution.
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (Isaiah 53:10).

No anger

And that kinda depends how you read it. Yes God was pleased to bruise himself but why? Because of the results or because he was commiting some kind of cosmic child abuse?

One would have to have the mind of Christ to understand that one.

If we had multiple verses saying God crushed Jesus, I could find penal substitution true. But it's really only one of many atonement theories scholars have developed. It seems true in one sense, but not another. God took our punishment. That's different than God dumped it on Jesus.

It is more complex than you describe.

ViaCrucis · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I know all of that. Fact is, Jesus didn’t use it once. He taught us pointedly to call God “Father.” We do Him no honor by refusing to do so.

I guess I must have missed where anyone is saying that we can't call the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ "Father". We confess and believe in one God, Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But also, "YHVH" isn't just a name for the Father; this is the Divine Name of the Trinity. Christ is YHVH, even as the Father is YHVH, and the Holy Spirit is YHVH. As the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) states, that YHVH the God of Israel is one God--there is only one God. The One who told Moses, "I AM that I AM", YHVH.

So I suppose I am confused by this argument.

It's not an either-or proposition. It's both-and.

-CryptoLutheran

prodromos · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I know all of that. Fact is, Jesus didn’t use it once. He taught us pointedly to call God “Father.” We do Him no honor by refusing to do so.

So you don't call Jesus, Lord?

royal priest · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Except He didn’t. He never used the Jewish word that God made sure was lost.

That would have made for quite an interesting reading session whenever He led in the synagogue.

royal priest · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Saying because Jesus was the atonement for sin means God was full of wrath.

This is a statement that agrees with what millions of Christians have understood for centuries. Where is the fallacy in thinking that Jesus appeased God's wrath by dying on the cross?

zoidar · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

The simple answer is it's not mentioned in scripture. Some verses can be argued to mean it. So it's more of a theological view.

Fervent · Mar 14, 2021

The verses most often used to defend that position are Isaiah 53, Romans 3:25, and 1 John 2:2. Though often the theology of it is misunderstood because when properly formulated God is never wrathful with Jesus. Ultimately I disagree with the doctrine of satisfaction so I won't defend penal sub or any other theology that forwards that the problem in the human-Divine relationship was God's disposition and that the cross changed that disposition.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Why did God pour out his wrath in Revelation then?

Just as God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, God's love continues in the hearts and lives of His people on into eternity. God's wrath can also continue against those who did not accept God's free love gift (i.e. Jesus Christ). Surely God's love did not end with the sending of His Son for us. The same is true with God's wrath.

In the Provisional Atonement: God the Father sent His Son to pay the price for our sins. This does not mean God still cannot get angry at sin. In order for the atonement to be applied to a person's life, they have to accept God's free love gift (i.e. Jesus Christ).

You said:
No where does the Bible say God was full of wrath on Jesus that day. No where. It is a false accusation apparently.

No, it is a logical conclusion based on reading the whole counsel of God's Word.

Take for example: Deuteronomy 29:27. It says:

“And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:” (Deuteronomy 29:27).

This shows that God's anger (wrath) is tied to curses.

Now, lets read Galatians 3:13 with this thinking in mind.

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:” (Galatians 3:13).

The difference is that God was pouring out His wrath on sin through Jesus dying in our place. It's not that God the Father was angry with the Son, but it was God's wrath being poured out on sin through the Son. For God condemned sin in the flesh of His Son (See: Romans 8:3).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
I was really asking if any verses say God poured his wrath on Jesus and I’m grateful for all who answered doing their best.

I am a modern Berean who searches the scriptures to see if what I’m taught is so. It isn’t. Good to know.

Do you believe God is angry when people sin?

Psalms 7:11 says, “...God is angry with the wicked every day.”

So if God is angry at the wicked, what do you think He does with them in order to show His fierce anger towards their sin? God in His anger pours out judgment or punishment to show His anger or wrath towards sin and or those who are wicked.

So the question that needs to be asked is this: Does the Bible ever see the death of Jesus as punishment for sin? Again, I would say that the answer to this question is “yes” – but not for his own sin, but for the sins of others. There are many places we could go to show this, but one of the best places to go is Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:4 – Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. (NIV)

In other words, they thought that God was punishing this person for his own sin. But the passage doesn’t end there:

Isaiah 53:5-6 – But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (NIV)

This part of the passage clarifies what was meant in verse 4: Christ wasn’t experiencing punishment for his own sin; he was experiencing punishment for the sin of other people.

This is precisely what it means to experience the wrath of God: to experience severe punishment from God because of sin. By ordaining the death of Jesus (Acts of the Apostles 4:28) as punishment for sin (Isaiah 53:6) and by not rescuing Jesus when he was dying on the cross (Matthew 26:46), God was effectively pouring out his wrath on Jesus so that we could be forgiven for our sins. The wrath/punishment that we deserve to receive fell on Jesus so that we could be forgiven for our sins (Romans 3:25-26). If we believe that Jesus died in our place and experienced the punishment that we deserve to receive, it is appropriate to say that Jesus experienced the wrath of God, even if that precise terminology is not used in the New Testament.

Source used for latter half of this post:
Did Jesus Experience God’s Wrath When He Died on the Cross?
(Note: I merely agree with what the part of the article that is written here in my post; This does not mean I agree with the author on his other beliefs or claims).

Bible Highlighter · Mar 14, 2021

I think many today become so desensitized to sin that they do not think that God gets angry at sin. But God does. Psalms 7:11 makes it clear that God is angry at the wicked every day. We know throughout the whole of the Bible that God punishes those who do sinful and evil things. Just look at the global flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah. In the story of Jonah, we see God was going to bring His wrath or judgment upon the Ninevites but God turned back from His wrath by not destroying them because they repented. When God the Father sent His Son Jesus Christ to die in our place, He was appeasing the Wrath of God that sin incurs. The wages of sin is death. God must destroy sin with death because God hates sin. This is why Jesus died for us. God hates sin, and Jesus was our punishment in our place to die for our sins. Jesus took God's wrath towards our sins and Jesus paid the penalty on our behalf.

But today: Folks look at sin as if it is like a fluffy kitten. But God hates sin and He wants to destroy and erradicate it because God is holy, just, and good.

renniks · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
It is more complex than you describe.

It certainly is. It's way more complicated than I can ever fully understand, I expect.

renniks · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
But He wasn’t angry.

But God is often shown to be angry at sin...so it seems logical that he took the weight of that anger unto himself.

friend of · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Saying because Jesus was the atonement for sin means God was full of wrath.

How is it incorrect to say "God is full of wrath "? God obviously harbors wrath against sin, which He hates. Do you think God is happy or neutral about sin? Because He surely isn't.

lsume · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I don’t agree about God pouring out His wrath at the cross. I do believe that Christ experienced separation from God The Father for the first time in His experience.

LightLoveHope · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Wrath of God onto Jesus is not a biblical concept.
Jesus became our living sacrifice for sin, a token for the cost of sinful behaviour and attitudes, and His forgiveness our salvation.

Sacrifice for sin was not punishment of the animals as a substitute for the sinner, but rather a price to symbolise repentance, putting things right, acknowledging a debt and see the price for sin is death.

Jesus had to die to open the door of forgiveness, showing us that whatever we did, He could forgive, as long as we agreed to the straight way and following, changing our heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

In a sense Jesus has healed us through this gate if we enter in.

God bless you

Guojing · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Revelation is talking about the wrath being poured on the nation Israel, as well as those Gentiles who still refuse to accept the grace that God offered to them thru the cross. (Romans 11).

For us in the Body of Christ, Christ already took the wrath for us at the cross, so we will be delivered from that wrath to come (1 Thess)

dqhall · Mar 14, 2021

Dorothy Mae said:
Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Jesus was framed. The chief priests manipulated the people. They thought Jesus should die to prevent the Romans from taking away their privileges.

John 11:45 Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary and saw what Jesus did believed in him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done. 47 The chief priests therefore and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, “What are we doing? For this man does many signs. 48 If we leave him alone like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

49 But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is advantageous for us that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he didn’t say this of himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. 53 So from that day forward they took counsel that they might put him to death.

God did not kill Jesus. Judas betrayed him by leading the enemies of Jesus to the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus said:

Matthew 26:24 “The Son of Man goes, even as it is written of him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would be better for that man if he had not been born."

Killing Jesus did not take away sins. There is sin in the world to this day. Those who believe Jesus will not lose their reward. Paul was raging against God. Jesus asked him to repent. Paul’s repentance was refreshing to the church. God’s love set Paul free.

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