Justified For Access To Grace

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Nathan@work said:
So maybe we should define Faith?

NT saving faith is belief and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Butterball1 said:
James 2:21,25.....works justifies

James does not use "justify" in the same sense as Paul.

For James, justification is "proving," for Paul justification is "declared not guilty."

The definition under discussion is "declared not guilty."

Romans 6:17-18....obedience justifies

Ro 6:17-18 does not present obedience as justification.

Titus 3:7...... grace justifies
Galatian 3:24.......faith justifies
Galatians 2:17.....Christ justifies
Romans 5:8-9.....Christ's blood justifies

We are justified by faith in Christ (Romans 3:5) whose shed blood atoned for our sin
by the grace of God.
That is the sum total of justification.

We are not justified by works and obedience.

Much involved in man being justified, not just faith only. A faith that justifies is a faith that works in obeying God's will. Justification is a process as seen with Abraham, not a one time singular event that happens unconditionally once for all time regardless of what the Christian does/lives. Those justified must live by faith till death Romans 1:17 else be lost if draws back, Hebrews 10:38-39.

JUSTIFICATION: By Faith or Works?
From above link:
"There has been much controversy over the instruction within the book of James regarding faith and works. Clearly, James taught that justification is as much by works as it is by faith (2:21) — a concept which Luther found so obnoxious that he rejected the inspiration of the document, called it a “right strawy epistle,” and suggested that the book was not even authored by James (Lenski, 1966, p. 515).

But the divine writer unequivocally affirmed that faith without works cannot save (2:14). Is he speaking of the alien sinner, or the Christian? The question is academic — James is discussing the principle of faithful obedience — to whomever it applies; whether an Abraham, or a Rahab."

------------

James 2:21-22 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

"faith and his actions were working together".....justified not by either faith alone or by works alone but justified by BOTH faith and works together.

The underlying Greek word rendered 'wrought' in the KJV is synergeō. Looks like our English word synergy. Synergeō means " to work together, help in work, be a partner in labor: 1 Corinthians 16:16; 2 Corinthians 6:1; to put forth power together with and thereby to assist" - Thayer.
Thus justification is a synergy of both faith and works working together and not apart for faith is dead apart from works killing the necessary synergy that requires both faith and works....a partnership between faith and works that cannot be broken if one is to be justified.

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
First, thank you very much for your thorough and well thought out response.
Hopefully all will continue in a profitable and edifying discussion.

Post #13 began a discussion of James 2. He connects being justified to salvation, when
he asks this question:Can faith save him?

Justification brings reconciliation, which establishes the believer in righteousness.
Romans 5:
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath
through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom
we have now received the reconciliation.

Justification is not the process, reconciliation is accomplished. Righteousness is attained.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

Salvation is not mentioned here, yet if we are to be "made whole" in salvation,
then all are necessary. Justification again, pertains to righteousness.
Salvation is the process, and this is where the conflict arises and is the center of the debates and arguments.

Salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; John 3:36); i.e., God's condemnation on sin (Romans 5:18).

That condemnation/wrath on our guilt is propitiated and removed when we are "declared 'not guilty,' given right standing before God's justice; i.e., by justification," which removal of condemnation is salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)

Justification is salvation.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Justification pertains to reconciliation, and the mediation of Christ between God and man.
2 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(note: ransom, connecting to redemption mentioned in 1 Co 1:30)
2 Corinthians 5:
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ,
and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their
trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

To best define justified apart from salvation, go back to the beginning of Romans 5.
Romans 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord
Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and
rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

When I say "I am justified by faith", I am saying that I am reconciled to God, and I am
at peace with Him. I have access to the Grace necessary to walk in His Spirit and a life
in godliness. What is the point of being justified, if you aren't going to maintain a relationship
with Him? If you aren't interested in knowing and obeying His Will? I would like to bring Peter
into the conversation. Why not right?
2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,
3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness,
through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these
you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world
through selfish desires.

Paul agrees:
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you,
always having all sufficiency in all, may have an abundance for every good work.

Jesus says that it must be your will to know and do His Father's Will.
John 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether
it is from God or I speak on My own authority.

Having said all that, why was Abraham justified in offering Isaac on an altar? Was he seeking
reconciliation? No, he was acting in the obedience of faith. If Abraham was not right with God
he never would have heard His Voice in the first place to act in obedience to the command
to take your only beloved son and sacrifice him.
James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was
accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
Justification is salvation

Why was Abraham justified in offering Isaac on an altar?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered
Isaac his son on the altar?

pasifika · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
What do you mean when you say "I am justified by Faith"?

Being forgiven from sins by obeying the Gospel message..

pasifika · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Why was Abraham justified in offering Isaac on an altar?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered
Isaac his son on the altar?

His obedience to God... ( obedience is the works that comes from Faith)

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Why was Abraham justified in offering Isaac on an altar?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered
Isaac his son on the altar?

James uses justification to mean "proving," while Paul uses justification to mean "declared not guilty."

James is not saying Abraham was "declared not guilty, given righteousness" when he offered Isaac,
James is saying Abraham "proved" his righteousness by his works when he offered Isaac.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
Salvation is from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9; John 3:36); i.e., God's condemnation on sin (Romans 5:18).

Romans 5:
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of
His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Justification brings reconciliation and the righteousness of God that brings salvation
to our life, for the rest of our life.
Justification is not Salvation, it is where salvation begins. With being justified, reconciled
and made righteous, we can live our lives in true holiness. [Eph 4:24]
Romans 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which
we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As fine a summary as you will find.
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior
Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and
purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Nathan@work · Mar 14, 2021

I have always thought one of the best examples of Faith is Peter.

Peter saw Jesus walking on the water. Peter knew it was impossible for him to walk on water. However, Peter knew that if Jesus told Him to, then he could walk on water.

Sometimes I think people don’t realize Jesus was being serious when He said that with a mustard seeds worth of Faith a mountain could move.

What we don’t realize that is if God said to us “speak to that mountain and tell it to move” we could actually tell the mountain to move and it would.

Brings new meaning to Faith. God has ‘commanded’ all people to believe in His Son. So when we ‘do’ what He says, we are truly acting on Faith.

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Romans 5:
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved
from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of
His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Justification brings reconciliation and the righteousness of God that brings salvation
to our life, for the rest of our life.

Justification is not Salvation, it is where salvation begins. With being justified, reconciled and made righteous, we can live our lives in true holiness. [Eph 4:24]

That is the sanctification process of those who are saved.

I think I know where the confusion lies.

Justification is called righteousness, and sanctification is also called righteousness in the NT.

There are two kinds of righteousness in the NT:

1) justification - declared "not guilty," given right standing with God's justice--righteousness, no longer condemned, saved from the wrath of God, and

2) sanctification - process of growing in righteousness, holiness.

Romans 5:

1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which
we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As fine a summary as you will find.
Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior
Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and
purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
James is not saying Abraham was "declared not guilty, given righteousness" when he offered Isaac,
James is saying Abraham "proved" his righteousness by his works when he offered Isaac.

Yes, as it is written; "the obedience of faith" Romans 1:5
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him.

Ancient people offered sacrifices to appease wrath, for reconciliation.
Abraham was not seeking such things. He was obeying The Voice.
James 2:
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith
was made perfect? (Yes I do. The idea of "proving" faith as in a metal is proved by testing.)
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted
to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham had already been declared righteous, he did not need to seek reconciliation.
By proving his faith, he proved his righteousness, and he proved his justification.

1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved
by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes,
though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of
Jesus Christ.

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Yes, as it is written; "the obedience of faith" Romans 1:5
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him.

Ancient people offered sacrifices to appease wrath, for reconciliation.
Abraham was not seeking such things. He was obeying The Voice.

The Scripture (Genesis 15:6) makes no mention of "obeying," it states "Abraham believed."
See Romans 4:1-5.

James 2:
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith
was made perfect? (Yes I do. The idea of "proving" faith as in a metal is proved by testing.)
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted
to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abraham had already been declared righteous, he did not need to seek reconciliation.
By proving his faith, he proved his righteousness, and he proved his justification.

1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved
by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes,
though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of
Jesus Christ.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
The Scripture (Genesis 15:6) makes no mention of "obeying," it states "Abraham believed."
See Romans 4:1-5.

Obeying the Voice was in reference to his offering Isaac on Moriah, as opposed to
attempting to appease the wrath of God, like a pagan. I thought I was clear.
Are you skimming my post for something to disagree with me? LOL

Minister Monardo said:
Ancient people offered sacrifices to appease wrath, for reconciliation.
Abraham was not seeking such things. He was obeying The Voice.

Again, referencing Moriah, not "so shall your offspring be".
Yes, I have seen Romans 4.

Sophrosyne · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
The Scripture (Genesis 15:6) makes no mention of "obeying," it states "Abraham believed."
See Romans 4:1-5.

It also states God stopped Abraham from sacrificing his son he only wanted proof that he believed, God never intended Abraham to do "works". If we were to take this as a works example then everyone could pretend to sacrifice a son and stop and demand God save them and we know what God would say to that.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
James does not use "justify" in the same sense as Paul.

For James, justification is "proving," for Paul justification is "declared not guilty."

Clare73 said:
There are two kinds of righteousness in the NT:

Two kinds of justification, two kinds of righteousness. All necessary to support "you are saved",
and separate salvation from the rest of the Gospel, and "the process" of enduring to the end.
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Or is there two kinds of salvation?

Daniel Marsh · Mar 14, 2021

read to here

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Obeying the Voice was in reference to his offering Isaac on Moriah, as opposed to
attempting to appease the wrath of God, like a pagan. I thought I was clear.
Are you skimming my post for something to disagree with me? LOL

Well I didn't realize what that one was about and messed it up good.
Sorry about that.

Again, referencing Moriah, not "so shall your offspring be".
Yes, I have seen Romans 4.

Messed it up real good.

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Minister Monardo said:
Two kinds of justification, two kinds of righteousness.
All necessary to support "you are saved",and
separate salvation from the rest of the Gospel, and
"the process" of enduring to the end.

No-o-o. . .careful there.
All necessary to support agreement and consistency of the Word of God.

There is only one kind of justification in Paul--"justification apart from works" (Romans 3:21, 28).
It's James that does not use it the way Paul does.
James states "justification by works" (James 2:24).

It's not me, it's the Biblical text showing them plainly to have two different meanings.
If you maintain that both are correct, then you maintain that the Word of God contradicts itself.

I heartily disagree.

Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Or is there two kinds of salvation?

No. . .true salvation endures to the end. If one falls away, they were never really saved. . .
they are the rock on which the seed fell, sprouted and then withered because it had no root. . .
they believed for a while, but in the time of testing they fell away (Luke 8:5-13).

Clare73 · Mar 14, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
read to here

Okay. . .then what? I fixed it.

Mr. M · Mar 14, 2021

Clare73 said:
There is only one kind of justification in Paul--"justification apart from works" (Romans 3:21, 28).

Paul is contrasting faith to keeping The Law of Moses and the practice of Judaism in Romans 3.
He otherwise has no problem with the idea of "work of Faith".
1 Thessalonians 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love,
and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father.

For the work of the Spirit to be in accordance with justification, we must maintain our
reconciled relationship with The Father by abiding in the Spirit. It is the Spirit that justifies.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Romans 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand,
and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

It is faith to grace from first to last. The work is obedience. Obedience, like Abraham,
proves our justification, our reconciliation, and our righteousness in Christ.
Without justification, our work is without the Spirit and in vain.

Justified For Access To Grace

Righteous by believing what?

Jesus Christ Is The Son of God

The Son of God died for sin

The Son was raised by The Father

All of the above

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