Renouncing your faith under torture

SkyWriting said:

All government is from God. God said it, not me.

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Human government is not "from" God. God allows whatever government that arises to exist for its appointed time. God didn't personally send Pilate (for example) down and put words in his mouth to condemn Jesus to death, but He did allow Pilate to rule with his own free will and judgement. Like Jesus said "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above". John 19:11 There's a big, big difference between God giving a person or government power to do with as he/she/it wills, and that institution/individual actually being "from" God. Otherwise we'd have to say that the Antichrist will also be "from" God, which is obviously false. I'm aware that this is basically arguing semantics, but to my mind clarity is essential in this particular area.

As for the original topic of this thread, I'm inclined to agree with those who think God will look at the person's heart. He knows all and His judgement is flawless.

I believe God gives an inner peace and maybe even a spiritual preparation unbeknownst, to those who are tortured and die for his Name. I don't think it would be like your average Joe or Jane getting murdered during a botched drug deal or whatnot. Not that I'm busting to die as a martyr lol but yeah.
If that makes sense.

There are two issues to this question.

1) In our own power, every one of us would deny Christ when subjected to enough pressure. If God intends us to maintain and stand firm in the faith, He will grant us the strength to endure or take us prior to the critical point. We will stand if and only if Christ makes us stand.

2) Failure to stand may be a sign that we were insincere in our faith, that we were self-deluded and were in fact self-reliant. If God intends us to stand in His strength, and we choose to resist and overcome by strength of our own will the failure point occurs much sooner than the actual recantation. Faith in Christ requires a dependence on Christ, not on our own ability to believe and act in accordance with that belief. If our faith is actually in our convictions we will no stand. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken.

While thousands of Christians have chosen a horrific death rather than deny Jesus, That doesn't mean that God will not be merciful to those who have done their best to follow Him, but finally succumbed to fear when threatened with death. They are after all, just human.

That's what the "left behind series" movie is all about except the torture is not being able to make purchases that are necessary to sustain life such as food, etc.
Would you forfeit your faith if you were starving to death?
You must, a moment of torture for an eternity with Jesus.

In my youth, I was in a cult. Mind warping, psychological brainwashing. For me, this was all separate from my heart within, even though my core within was shattered.

I developed a cult personality (programmed thinking/deeds) when in that place. It served my need to survive in that world. But my authentic me was submerged very deep. If God does not receive vain repetitions, if God cares not for words divorced from heart... as he clearly shows through the Bible...

If God allow ones soul to broken, he tenderly will mend it back together. For his reasons and his eternal counsels & purposes.

He tenderly mended me through many years of Godly Pastoral counsel.

Belief in the heart that Jesus is God the Son in the Flesh and confession with the mouth from the heart, brings us into salvation. Forced confession is not from the heart. If a parrot says what you have trained him to say, do you think he really believes what he has parroted? It is parroted out without any understanding at all.

Confession is authentic Confession when it flows from the heart within. It is an admittance of something one has knowing of.
Did Peter BELIEVE in his denial of Christ? Did Jesus forgive Peter?

We must fast to discover what shadows are in us and what shadows we face. Those areas of doubts about things. The uncertainties need our prayers, fasting and cleansing.

We must abide in the words of Christ, we must meditate on his words and doings. Cherishing Jesus in our hearts above our own self love. To arrive at the place of such love for Christ, that we could say, "We loved not our lives to the death".
(“And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”) Rev. 12:11

Love is the most powerful thing in the world. Love always believes, always hopes, always is kind and never ever loses. Love Keeps Fighting in the faith. Loves rejoices in Truth.

Cormack said:

I watched a video today that really got me questioning the supposed lost state of people who renounce their faith under the worst kinds of torture.

The video’s totally unrelated to the Christian faith, but it did get me thinking about the personality warping effects of torture on an otherwise faithful, sincere Christian.

So it’s opinion time. What’s the fate of someone who denies their God, renounces their faith, and is then killed under the persistent pressures of physical torture? No overtime or extended earthly opportunity to confess their faith and repent of their words.

EDIT: occasional profanity in the video (in case you’re extremely sensitive to that sort of thing.)

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I believe OSAS is what the Bible says. That no one can snatch me out of His hands and that nothing, not even my own weakness, can separate me from the love of God.

That said this has always been a big issue in the church. When Constantine granted freedom of worship via the Edict of Milan 315 many Christian apostates from the Diocletian persecution came back into the church. Those who had stood strong under persecution debated long and hard as to whether they should be allowed back in. Even when allowed this required a new 10 years apprenticeship before full restitution was accepted by the church. I should imagine the Russian church went through a similar process after the collapse of Communism. In the case of a Christian family fleeing persecution in a Muslim country who claim they are Muslims on the trip, there is a similar example. Should they just be honest about their faith and get thrown overboard to drown or should they conceal that from the wolves around them and repent later.

At the end of the day, the real restitution is between a person and God. God can forgive our weakness but will often give us similar tests to our resolve following that restoration. Personally, I believe it depends on how deep in your soul such renunciations come. If from the deepest place then perhaps there is no restoration if only superficially and in response to great pain and suffering then that is different.

mindlight said:

I believe OSAS is what the Bible says. That no one can snatch me out of His hands and that nothing, not even my own weakness, can separate me from the love of God.

That said this has always been a big issue in the church. When Constantine granted freedom of worship via the Edict of Milan 315 many Christian apostates from the Diocletian persecution came back into the church. Those who had stood strong under persecution debated long and hard as to whether they should be allowed back in. Even when allowed this required a new 10 years apprenticeship before full restitution was accepted by the church. I should imagine the Russian church went through a similar process after the collapse of Communism. In the case of a Christian family fleeing persecution in a Muslim country who claim they are Muslims on the trip, there is a similar example. Should they just be honest about their faith and get thrown overboard to drown or should they conceal that from the wolves around them and repent later.

At the end of the day, the real restitution is between a person and God. God can forgive our weakness but will often give us similar tests to our resolve following that restoration. Personally, I believe it depends on how deep in your soul such renunciations come. If from the deepest place then perhaps there is no restoration if only superficially and in response to great pain and suffering then that is different.

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So you are saying that a person of their own volition can't give up their salvation? So we have lost our choice? I believe it goes ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED AS FAR AS GOD IS CONCERNED but we have the choice of forsaking it.
Christians have the right to turn from God if they choose. Otherwise our choice has been removed.

Cormack said:

I watched a video today that really got me questioning the supposed lost state of people who renounce their faith under the worst kinds of torture.

The video’s totally unrelated to the Christian faith, but it did get me thinking about the personality warping effects of torture on an otherwise faithful, sincere Christian.

So it’s opinion time. What’s the fate of someone who denies their God, renounces their faith, and is then killed under the persistent pressures of physical torture? No overtime or extended earthly opportunity to confess their faith and repent of their words.

EDIT: occasional profanity in the video (in case you’re extremely sensitive to that sort of thing.)

Click to expand...

Hell. They will go to hell. If we believe the Bible, that is the answer but of course it is up to God. Think of it like this. If we should ever find ourselves in similar, you can endure this agonizing nightmare for ten days, or every day for eternity. Our choice. And can you imagine believing what you believe and denouncing our Lord? After what He did for us??? I could never betray Him like that. Our torture would not be as bad because Jesus has promised us to keep out eyes on Him and it won't be as bad. If we focus and sing worship songs, He will make it bearable. But under no circumstances are we do deny Christ. It is not an option.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. Matthew 16:25

Isn't that what this means?

Christ will sustain those who know Him it is necessary not to deny Christ for you may not have opportunity to later confess Him and die for Him. We should seek Christ now to know Him so He can sustain us during that time incase we do not find Him later if we are not seeking Him

It strikes me that anyone stands a chance of an heretical recanting if (1) they are, in character, predisposed and (2) if the recantation is premeditated.

I don’t think I can adequately explain (only God ultimately knows) but, by (1), I am picturing a person who habitually is not in fellowship with God and fellow believers. The self-justifying nature of self-protection becomes even greater. I would also think that such a person, if sensing weight of their sin, might want to “escape death to get things right”. On the other hand, there are “nice” believers who simply have not learned to stop despairing within the everyday things of life and are not in the habit of consistently trusting God. What then will happen to the poor folk when literally faced with a blade? On the other hand, God deems the truly spiritual among us to be those who support the weak in conscience! I find (2) harder to discuss. Can we call “premeditated” the mind that grows weak in a jail cell, in between interrogations? I don’t think we can emphatically assert that.

With some trepidation I ask (and I have in mind the believer who “walks with Jesus”—if we can universally agree on a definition of that), “If recanting under duress is deemed to be inadmissible evidence in a just, earthly court of low, would Heaven hold to a harsher standard?”

Jaxxi said:

I could never betray Him like that.

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Careful. You sound a lot like Peter before he denied Christ when you say that, and there wasn't even torture involved. Nor was he in any danger, and he denied Christ three times in a row. Jesus still forgave him and even made him the foremost apostle.

Cormack said:

Personally, I appreciate this level of candour.

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For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. Matthew 16:25

Isn't that what this means?

Isaiah 2:22 said:

Careful. You sound a lot like Peter before he denied Christ when you say that, and there wasn't even torture involved. Nor was he in any danger, and he denied Christ three times in a row. Jesus still forgave him and even made him the foremost apostle.

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I could sound like the Pope and it will not change the fact that I would gnaw my own tongue off first. I will not deny Jesus Christ. Peter did not know what Jesus was going to do for us or how He would suffer. There is a difference.

Quasiblogo said:

It strikes me that anyone stands a chance of an heretical recanting if (1) they are, in character, predisposed and (2) if the recantation is premeditated.

I don’t think I can adequately explain (only God ultimately knows) but, by (1), I am picturing a person who habitually is not in fellowship with God and fellow believers. The self-justifying nature of self-protection becomes even greater. I would also think that such a person, if sensing weight of their sin, might want to “escape death to get things right”. On the other hand, there are “nice” believers who simply have not learned to stop despairing within the everyday things of life and are not in the habit of consistently trusting God. What then will happen to the poor folk when literally faced with a blade? On the other hand, God deems the truly spiritual among us to be those who support the weak in conscience! I find (2) harder to discuss. Can we call “premeditated” the mind that grows weak in a jail cell, in between interrogations? I don’t think we can emphatically assert that.

With some trepidation I ask (and I have in mind the believer who “walks with Jesus”—if we can universally agree on a definition of that), “If recanting under duress is deemed to be inadmissible evidence in a just, earthly court of low, would Heaven hold to a harsher standard?”

Click to expand...

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it. Matthew 16:25

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of Life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death.’ Revelation 2:10

We can tiptoe around what Jesus said and make everyone comfortable or we can admit the truth of what He said and take it for what it is.

Jaxxi said:

I could sound like the Pope and it will not change the fact that I would gnaw my own tongue off first. I will not deny Jesus Christ. Peter did not know what Jesus was going to do for us or how He would suffer. There is a difference.

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What does the Pope have to do with anything? Peter did know that Jesus was going to suffer and die. He was told beforehand many times. He was also told that believers would suffer persecution. He even claimed he would follow Jesus to prison and death, as did all of the other disciples. Matthew 26:35, Mark 14:31, Luke 22:33, John 13:37. It's good that you have faith that God will give you the strength to overcome, but be careful about assuming ahead of time that you will succeed where they failed.

Cormack said:

So it’s opinion time. What’s the fate of someone who denies their God, renounces their faith, and is then killed under the persistent pressures of physical torture?

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Their fate is between them and God and doesn’t involve you, me, or anybody else.

Tropical Wilds said:

Their fate is between them and God and doesn’t involve you, me, or anybody else.

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Do you know your signature has the word "beer" in it>

Cormack said:

So it’s opinion time. What’s the fate of someone who denies their God, renounces their faith, and is then killed under the persistent pressures of physical torture? No overtime or extended earthly opportunity to confess their faith and repent of their words.

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No one can really answer that question with certainty, we can hope we would not succumb but many will. We can't live in pride and say we would never renounce because when it comes down to real torture many will. I would not know what I would do.