WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?
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Religiot
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So glad to see you're back!THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL OR ANOTHER GOSPEL WHICH DO YOU FOLLOW?
Hi Guys,
The other thread seemed to have disappeared because of a technicality. Anyhow this is an undated version with some new questions for consideration.
In God's Word the bible speaks of the everlasting Gospel in Revelation 14:6 as part of the three angels messages as the last message of warning given to the world before the second coming and warns us about receiving "another gospel" preaching another Jesus or a false gospel that is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (false teachings) in 2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-7; Acts of the Apostles 20:29.
I think this topic is an important one for us to understand as it is written in the very Words of Jesus, that in the last days there will be many false teachers seeking to lead God's people away from the truth of God's Word *Matthew 24:24; 2 Peter 2:1-3.
...................
QUESTIONS FOR THIS OP (I will link my answers to these question back here to the OP when answered)
Q1. What is the true gospel? (linked)
Q2. Why has God given us His grace for? (linked)
Q3. What is sin (linked)
Q4. Can we receive God's salvation and grace if we do not know what sin is?
Q5. Does God's law lead us to God's Grace if so how it not why not?
Q6. Can we have Gods' grace without God's law?
Q7. What is the purpose of God's law (10 commandments) in the new covenant?
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What do you think dear friends. Are you following the everlasting gospel and where is it leading you? What therefore is the "another gospel" and where can it lead us?
Friendly discussion please.
God bless
--I think your thread was purposefully deleted.
I'll do my best to contribute to it again by re-posting some of my responses.
Thank you for your perseverance!
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Cormack
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@LoveGodsWord
How many of the verses that you shared in #9 are actual didactic texts where the authors main goal is to define the Gospel? I notice lots conclusions based upon presuppositions and ideas concluded by way of the verses shared, but how many of those verses are actually trying to define the Gospel?
1 Corinthians 15 is an effort to define the Gospel, so that’s at least one section of the Bible.
How many of the verses that you shared in #9 are actual didactic texts where the authors main goal is to define the Gospel? I notice lots conclusions based upon presuppositions and ideas concluded by way of the verses shared, but how many of those verses are actually trying to define the Gospel?
1 Corinthians 15 is an effort to define the Gospel, so that’s at least one section of the Bible.
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Religiot
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Christians don't have the right to label anyone a heretic but by God's word. --so you're problem isn't with any Christian labeling you a heretic, but God.
Your reading of Acts chapter 15 is private: not only does Acts 15 not talk about murder, but it does specifically mention the Sabbath, and that by the head of the convention, James. --by your reading of Acts 15, the exclusion of forbidding murder voids it as a requirement. (Such conclusions are absurd on their face, and depraved at their core.)
No where in the epistles is anyone corrected against inappropriate behavior with animals, nor cannibalism, etc., thus, according to your reasoning, these are permissible--that reasoning is absurd.
The absurdity of citing Hebrews 10:25 to point out that it doesn't mention the Sabbath, is as absurd as citing John 3:16 to point out that it doesn't mention the cross.
The error in your private reasoning is further demonstrated by your citation of Galatians 5:19-21, in that you do so to prove that the Sabbath is not mentioned: following is the actual reading of verse 21:
"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." --Galatians 5:21
To imagine that that list by Paul is somehow exhaustive, requires a reasoning so unnatural as to render it no reasoning at all, but shear adherence to a preconception not found in scripture.
That's the very point that you miss, "sabbaths", there are many, wherefore God separates the sabbaths of the old covenant from the seventh day of the week, for it is the Sabbath of the Lord, created as such, not labeled as such; for all the sabbaths of the old covenant are days that already existed, yet God relabeled them under the old covenant as reminders and lessons of things to come, but the seventh day is not labeled as the Sabbath, it is the Sabbath, created by God as such, period. --beware not to join what God has separated, nor to reject what He has created.
You do err, sir, and greatly.
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Religiot
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You misunderstand the gospel.
Here it is, "defined":
THE PROPHECY OF THE BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL
"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:1-8
THE PROPHECY OF THE BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL FULFILLED
"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; and preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." --Mark 1:1-8
THE PROPHECY OF THE GOSPEL
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the Lord hath blessed. I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations." --Isaiah 61:1-11
THE PROPHECY OF THE GOSPEL FULFILLED
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." --Luke 4:16-21
The gospel is not a series of explanations, but the announcement of the revelation, that God has made the way for men to be reconciled to Him, by His Son--there is no other gospel.
Belief and obedience are all that's required, belief and obedience to His Son:
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." --John 3:36
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Cormack
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I’m still waiting on a section of scripture where the human author is actually trying to define the Gospel in that section of text. A didactic portion of scripture related to teaching Christians what the Gospel is.
Grab bagging loads of scripture and writing “this is the gospel!” “Prophecy of gospel!” “Prophecy of beginning of gospel” doesn’t help show that you’re sharing a didactic text. Even if I agreed to the interpretation of those verses (which I probably don’t,) those aren’t didactic, they’re prophetic by your own definition.
So again, 1 Corinthians 15 is what a didactic text looks like, now do we have any more scripture that explicitly attempts to define what the Gospel means? Not implicitly or by some style of deductive logic people have.
Grab bagging loads of scripture and writing “this is the gospel!” “Prophecy of gospel!” “Prophecy of beginning of gospel” doesn’t help show that you’re sharing a didactic text. Even if I agreed to the interpretation of those verses (which I probably don’t,) those aren’t didactic, they’re prophetic by your own definition.
So again, 1 Corinthians 15 is what a didactic text looks like, now do we have any more scripture that explicitly attempts to define what the Gospel means? Not implicitly or by some style of deductive logic people have.
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Religiot
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That reading of Mark doesn't exist anywhere, but in modern translations.
Here is the actual reading from one of the many ancient translations:
"And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man." --Mark 7:17-23
Modern translators are taking more liberty with including their private theologies into the actual work of translation: they forego what has been known for millennia by the overwhelming evidence of the many ancient manuscripts known, and defer to anything they find that may justify their love of swine, or sodomy for that matter.
--The three things I find consistent as a foundational difference between those who fear God and everyone else are these: Sunday, Swine, and Sodomy--these three, I always find, at the very least one, always kept, without exception, amongst those popular sects, that claim Christ.
I'm so impressed, how these three, are so consistently, and specifically, condemned, throughout all of scripture, yet it is these three I find that underlie the basis for these sects.
I thank God that He has made the truth so obvious, as to setup the most glorious judgment, to the shame of the rest.
I love His judgment, and do look forward to it, amen.
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Religiot
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Your ignorance of the facts precludes you from judging what is a good reply and a terrible reply.Wow. That’s a truly terrible reply.Enjoy those conspiracy theories.
Moreover, your scoffing serves only to expose who you are inside.
Bother to first fear God, then bother to obey His commands, only then can you appreciate the gospel, only then will you understand: then you will fear to scoff at strangers, especially those who advocate God's commands.
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chad kincham
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Acts 15, read the whole quote, the church assembled to settle the issue of those who claimed gentile Christians must be circumcised AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.
Their conclusion was gentile Christians only need to keep from fornication and from blood and strangled meats, from the law of Moses - and Peter called the law a yoke of burden that they nor their fathers could bear - nothing was said about the need to keep the 7th day sabbath.
In Colossians 2, it says the sabbaths, plural, were a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance. If you’d bother to look up the koine Greek word in translated SABBATHS in a Greek dictionary you’d find it says it includes all the sabbaths, especially the weekly sabbaths, not just so called shadow sabbaths.
As to the claims the apostles kept the sabbaths, reading the texts in context makes it clear they went into synagogues, not churches, on the sabbath, because that’s the day that the Jews were present to hear the gospel of Christ presented - if they preached on Sunday there would be no one there.
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Religiot
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Only modern scholars, for the aforementioned reasons already posted in this thread, have the gull to add that note to their modern translations; and that, against history, and by basis on a few newly discovered works--which are heavily contested.
The gospel of Mark has never had such a reading, but in this modern era alone, viz:
MARK 7:19 AS FOUND IN ANCIENT TRANSLATIONS
"Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats." --Mark 7:19, King James Bible, 1611 AD, Translator: First Westminster Company, First Cambridge Company, First Oxford Company, Second Cambridge Company, Second Oxford Company, Second Westminster Company, etc.
"Porque no entra en su corazón, sino en el vientre, y sale el hombre a la secreta, y purga todas las viandas." --Mark 7:19, La Biblia Del Oso, 1569 AD, Translator: Casiodoro de Reina
"Because it entrith not in to his hert but into ye belly: and goeth out into the draught that porgeth oute all meates." --Mark 7:19, The Tyndale Bible, 1525/1530 AD, Translator: William Tyndale
"For it hath not entrid in to his herte, but in to the wombe, and bynethe it goith out, purgynge alle metis." --Mark 7:19, The Wycliff Bible, c.1395 AD, Translator: John Wycliff
"quia non introit in cor eius sed in ventrem et in secessum exit purgans omnes escas" --Mark 7:19, The Latin Vulgate, c.405 AD, Translator: Eusibius Jerome
The truth doesn't increase toward the end, but like in the times of Noah, by the time judgment comes, there will be none, but those few selected by God to glorify His name. Amen.
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I did. Circumcision is from the law of Moses not the 10 commandments. To come up with an interpretation that Acts of the Apostles 15 teaches that God's 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for christian living disagrees with pretty much all the new testament scriptures (scripture support here) as everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated as a requirement for Christian living and are also repeated all through the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). Acts 15 was over the question "Is circumcision a requirement for salvation for new Gentile believers" *Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 not are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living. That interpretation of the scriptures makes Paul a hypocrite when he says after the Jerusalem decision to the Corinthian believers "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD." - 1 Corinthians 7:19.
No. Read the rest of the chapter their decision was that "no circumcision from the law of Moses was not a requirement for God's salvation and was not required for new gentile believer. They also stated that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. -Acts of the Apostles 15:19-20. WHY? For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. - Acts of the Apostles 15:21. The new gentile believers would be continuing to learn the Word of God every Sabbath. Now let's get clear. Many try and use Acts 15 and read into it things it is not saying. It is not talking anywhere in this chapter about God's 10 commandments. It is talking about circumcision as a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers. Yes there is no mention of the Sabbath in Acts 15 just like there is no mention of not lying, stealing committing murder, committing adultery, taking God's name in vain, worshiping other Gods and making idols and coveting other peoples belongings. Does that now mean we are free to do all these thing? The fact is the subject matter and topic of conversation is over circumcision as a requirement for salvation not Gods 10 commandments being a requirement for Christian living - see 1 Corinthians 7:19
Please read the post and scriptures you are quoting from properly Chad before replying. There are many different kinds of sabbaths (plural) in the old covenant Mosaic book of the law linked into the annual Feasts. There ceremonial shadow sabbaths which I listed for you in the post you are quoting from are not the same as God's 4th commandments of God's 10 commandments which are a part of God's eternal law that according to the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; and James 2:10-11. The within scripture context and chapter subject matter of Colossians 2 that you have not addressed shows that the sabbaths in Colossians 2 are in reference to those of the annual Festivals not God's 4th commandment.
No. The Jewish synagogues are like Jewish Church's that we have today. They are different to the temple. They gathered together in their Church's on the Sabbath in Jesus day and continued doing so even after the death and resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was to teach that the Sabbath commandment was no more you think he would have had plenty of time to tell the disciples right? - Yet there is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is because Sunday worship is a man-made teaching. Jesus warns us in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:3-9 we are not worshiping God. So who should we believe and follow; God or man? For me only Gods' Word is true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 5:29
God bless
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chad kincham
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Spin it all you want, the ten commands are not only part of the law of Moses, they were the old covenant itself, as they are called THE COVENANT ON TWO TABLES OF STONE, and the old covenant has ended completely, replaced by a new covenant founded on better promises.
From the entire law of Moses, the gentiles were told to keep those things I listed, and in Acts 15 Peter calls the law of Moses a yoke neither them, or their fathers could bear, 2 Corinthians 3 makes it crystal clear that the ten commands given to Moses, are the ministry of death, of condemnation, and is the letter that kills. In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul states that the covenant given on mount Sinai is SLAVERY.
The ten commands are superseded by the two love commands, which are far superior to the ten on how well to treat our neighbors.
There is no day keeping at all required in the two, the church can assemble any day they choose.
The apostles assembled together for church on the first day of the week, and Jesus appeared to them on that day, not on Saturday. John 20:19
The early church started church by assembling together and eating a common meal, then taking communion, which scripture says they did on the first day of each week. Acts 20:7.
Sabbath keepers don’t really keep the sabbath, they just play at it, because a burnt offering from animal sacrifice is an integral part of each sabbath observance - also it’s commanded them to have no fire in their habitation on the sabbath, meaning no cooking, no hot water heater, and no furnace, can be used.
Imagine having no heat in Siberia if you are a sabbath keeper.
The 7th day sabbath is an ended ceremonial day of rest.
Keep it if you want, but don’t tell me I’m breaking a command from the ended old covenant on two tables of stone.
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Nathan@work
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1 Timothy 1:5-7 (ESV)
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
Sometimes simple passages like this just make me wonder about threads on the interweb.
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
Sometimes simple passages like this just make me wonder about threads on the interweb.
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Religiot
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I know what the ten commandments are, but how are they the old covenant? Can you really explain your claim?
Again, are you able to explain how the ten commandments are the ministry of death? Also, can you explain your claim that Peter refers to the ten commandments as a yoke that they couldn't bear? and can you please include why Peter would say that about the ten commandments?
Can you explain how the "love commands" tell me what to do?
There is no anything in the two, as far as I can tell, without the law; wherefore, I've asked for you to explain what the two tell me to do, thanks.
From what I remember, the Lord's body was resting on the Sabbath, and He 'got up' on the first day of the week ('Sunday')... --How do those facts equate to the Sabbath no longer being the prescribed day of rest?
The scripture you cited doesn't say that: why are you saying that the scriptures say that the church gathered every week on the first day of the week?
How, in your reasoning, was it possible for them to keep the Sabbath by offering a burnt offering, seeing that they were forbidden, according to you, from having fires on the Sabbath?
Imagine not contradicting yourself when espousing your own beliefs.
Who told you that the seventh day is a ceremonial day of rest?
Who are you to tell others what to tell you? --here you are telling others what you believe.
Perhaps it's time to reevaluate your reasoning about what you believe others believe.
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Religiot
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Often, partial citations of simple passages like this cause me to doubt about the motivations of the poster, viz:
Following is how the passage actually reads:
"Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." --1 Timothy 1:5-11
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