Jesus could do no deed of power there

Dorothy Mae

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Who believes that "God pre-determines all aspects of an individual?"

I don't mean any disrespect, and anyone is free to pose whatever question he chooses, but this seems like a discussion topic about a POV that has hardly any following.
This is actually fairly common in how many (calvinist) live if you listen to them talk. They explain the sorrows in their life by saying it’s all His will. That his will isn’t done often doesn’t occur to them.
 
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fhansen

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They "are trying to be justified by law" (v.4), which necessarily excludes them from grace, they "have fallen away from grace," for justification by law and justification by grace are necessarily mutually exclusive.

It's not about repentance and conviction, it's about choosing law over grace for justification (v.4), it's about "falling from grace" and back into law-keeping, it's about renouncing God's way of justification by Christ's finished work for you.
To be "under the law" is to try to be justified by the law, by fulfilling the law by my own efforts, by the letter, IOW, which is legalism: a mere external show of holiness. To be "under grace" is to be justified by God who fulfills the law in us, internally, by His "efforts", by the Spirit as He places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts (Jer 31:33). His work but a work we must nonetheless cooperate in:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:12-13
 
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Rescued One

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That's a good point. Although Martha was not the one being raised from the dead.

But I seem to remember others in the healing ministry of Jesus who did not believe, yet received healing. (the Pool of Bethesda) And others received healing because they did believe. The servant of the Centurion. (though it was the servant that was healed) The Canaanite woman was in the same boat, so to speak. Two gentiles of whom Jesus remarked had greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

So, the question remains. Why was Jesus unable to heal everyone in his own hometown?

Perhaps there's a difference between who God could heal and who God would heal. For the most part, healing did not come to Nazareth; even though healing came from there. (in the person of Jesus)

God is capable of healing those He wants to heal. He isn't obligated to heal everyone.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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God is capable of healing those He wants to heal. He isn't obligated to heal everyone.
God wants to heal everyone. But He doesn’t for reasons that lie with us. Same as Jesus couldn’t for reasons that lied with the people. God is able doesn’t mean He therefore does.
 
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Rescued One

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Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Isaiah 55
8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Not all our questions have answers.

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

2 Timothy 3:15-16 KJV
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Not all our questions have answers.



1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
.
Some have more answers than others.
 
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Saint Steven

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God is capable of healing those He wants to heal. He isn't obligated to heal everyone.
Why some don't receive healing is a great mystery. (to me) I believe we have already been healed completely by the work of the cross. (we just don't know it) This healing must be received for what it is. The enemy is constantly offering us sickness. They come like claim tickets for disease. You sneeze and someone asks if you are sick. Do you want to claim that sickness, or reject it? I tear up those claim tickets. I will even reject a doctor's diagnosis as an evil report.

1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
 
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Saint Steven

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I do not think that God thinks very highly of production value or theatrics
You can't be serious. (yet I think you are)

Were there theatrics in the parting of the Red Sea? I think they made a movie about it. No theatrics in Jesus' healing ministry? Walking on water? Or the Apostles healing ministries? And what of the "coat throwing" prophet, Elisha? (2 Kings 2:14)

So, if God told you to throw your coat, you wouldn't do it?

Saint Steven said:
If God told me to throw my coat, I would throw my coat. Would you?
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
You think Paul's issue was not what is so emphatically addressed in Gal 5:1-5, but is instead about conviction and repentance, nowhere mentioned in Galatians.
Why do you choose a totally unmentioned alternative rather than what is so clearly emphasized
by Paul in Galatians 5:1-5?
"Christ having no effect" is the atoning sacrifice to save not being applied to them
through faith in Christ's finished work, because their faith is in their own works to save, rather than Christ's work.

They "are trying to be justified by law" (v.4), which necessarily excludes them from grace, they "have fallen away from grace," for justification by law and justification by grace are necessarily mutually exclusive.

It's not about repentance and conviction, it's about choosing law over grace for justification (v.4), it's about "falling from grace" and back into law-keeping, it's about renouncing God's way of justification by Christ's finished work for you.

It's ANATHEMA! (1:9)
The Law cannot convict a believer of the need to repent from an offense against another.
The Holy Spirit convicts for repentance.
Luke 17:
3
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if
he repents, forgive him.

4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day
returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.


Falling from Grace has everything to do with repentance. How many times have
you been convicted by the Lord, for say, the way you spoke to someone and you
felt the need to repent? If someone cannot receive correction by the Holy Spirit,
they are not a legitimate child of God. Hebrews 12:8
This was addressed in my response to you in the above.
 
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Clare73

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In God's plans we can participate in accepting and retaining right disposition, or not.
Where do you find "God's plans" stated in that regard?

You're still not understanding disposition.
Yes, it's all throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation-I honestly don't know how people miss it. But it requires understanding as well, and the knowledge of God, all realized by grace. We're to choose good over evil; we're to obey the greatest commandments, thus fulfilling the rest. Love, a gift of grace to be accepted and exercised, is the very definition of good, or righteousness for man.
If we find reason to deny this obligation to be personally righteous, we've just found reason to deny the gospel. With true understanding we agree with this statement of a 16th century believer, quoted and taught by the church of Christ:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”
Neither righteousness nor love will save you from condemnation (Romans 5:18).

There are many who love well, and reject Jesus Christ. They remain under God's wrath (John 3:36).

Only faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin saves from God's condemnation (John 3:18).
Both. But at the end of the day he chose to deny God's authority in any case, an act of pride in itself, of putting man’s opinion over God's, and man's will reigned in this world ever since.

Yes! And God uses this unfortunate circumstance to bring about an even greater good from it all at the end of the day. He wasn't surprised by Adam's act of disobedience, of course, but had His plan in place before Adam was even created. As I stated, this world has a purpose; it’s a prodigal’s pigsty for all practical purposes. And the prodigal had something to learn-so that he’d choose the better way.
 
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Albion

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This is actually fairly common in how many (calvinist) live if you listen to them talk. They explain the sorrows in their life by saying it’s all His will. That his will isn’t done often doesn’t occur to them.
What you've observed, I won't deny. However, I think it's more of a generalized feeling about God being in control than of him having ''scripted,'' from all eternity, every last action and thought and event that happens in our lives.
 
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Clare73

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To be "under the law" is to try to be justified by the law, by fulfilling the law by my own efforts, by the letter, IOW, which is legalism: a mere external show of holiness.
To be "under grace" is to be justified by God who fulfills the law in us, internally, by His "efforts", by the Spirit as He places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts (Jer 31:33).
To be under grace is first and foremost to believe and trust in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.
His work but a work we must nonetheless cooperate in:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:12-13
 
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fhansen

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To be under grace is first and foremost to believe and trust in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.
To be under grace is more than remission of sin, more than God's favor. It's to live in Him and He in us; it's life by the Spirit. We enter that union via faith, itself a gift of grace.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:14

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4
 
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Clare73

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To be under grace is more than remission of sin, more than God's favor.
Indeed!

And that's what I said:

To be under grace is first and foremost to believe and trust in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin.

It's to live in Him and He in us; it's life by the Spirit. We enter that union via faith, itself a gift of grace.
“…just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom 5:21

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." Rom 6:14

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4
 
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fhansen

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Where do you find "God's plans" stated in that regard?
It begins in Genesis, and then continues through to the end, most particularly brought into the full light within the pages of the New Testament, via Jesus Christ IOW. A quote from a fairly well known believer a few years ago,"Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."
God, alone, can make man who he was created to be, can place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts. That's what Adam missed; that's what we're here to learn, by experience, revelation, and grace.
You're still not understanding disposition.
Ok??? So go ahead and explain it.
Neither righteousness nor love will save you from condemnation (Romans 5:18).
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:12-13

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15
There are many who love well, and reject Jesus Christ. They remain under God's wrath" (John 3:36).

Only faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin saves from God's condemnation (John 3:18).
If you don't understand this simple truth regarding the love of a quantity and quality that only comes from God (Rom 5:5) then you're pretty far removed from understanding the gospel, having bought into a modern, sort of stifled and altered version based on private interpretation of Scripture by some individuals, long after the church received the gospel. Again,
"At the evening of life we shall be just on our love."

This ties all of the teachings of Jesus, James, Paul et al together as no other understanding can. Here are two other other pertinent statements to consider, this time by Augustine. Paul would agree completely:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing".

Also,
"He who made you without your consent will not save you without your consent."

Love is the heart and soul of Christianity, the reason and motivation behind why Jesus came and everything He did. It's a primary aspect of the very nature of God; it's what He endeavors to produce in us as He transforms us into His own image. It's what would make Paul something instead of nothing:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
 
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Dorothy Mae

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What you've observed, I won't deny. However, I think it's more of a generalized feeling about God being in control than of him having ''scripted,'' from all eternity, every last action and thought and event that happens in our lives.
Could be but the use of it is always in particular events for which they take no personal responsibility nor acknowledge that others have a role to play in outcomes.
 
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Clare73

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  • It begins in Genesis, and then continues through to the end, most particularly brought into the full light within the pages of the New Testament, via Jesus Christ IOW. A quote from a fairly well known believer a few years ago,"Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.God, alone, can make man who he was created to be, can place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts. That's what Adam missed; that's what we're here to learn, by experience, revelation, and grace.
    Ok??? So go ahead and explain it.
Disposition is (what is) natural to you.

If brain surgery alters my dislike of molasses, and now I like molasses (changes my disposition toward it), I do not experience that as being forced to like molasses. I wake up and I now like molasses. It is now natural to me.

So stop it with the "force" already.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Rom 8:12-13

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Rev 22:14-15

If you don't understand this simple truth regarding the love of a quantity and quality that only comes from God (Rom 5:5) then you're pretty far removed from understanding the gospel, having bought into a modern, sort of stifled and altered version based on private interpretation of Scripture by some individuals, long after the church received the gospel. Again,
At the evening of life we shall be just on our love."
This ties all of the teachings of Jesus, James, Paul et al together as no other understanding can. Here are two other other pertinent statements to consider, this time by Augustine. Paul would agree completely:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing".
And the same goes for love without faith, right?

So let's not set them against one another, by emphasizing one without the other.
Also,
"He who made you without your consent will not save you without your consent."

Love is the heart and soul of Christianity, the reason and motivation behind why Jesus came and everything He did. It's a primary aspect of the very nature of God; it's what He endeavors to produce in us as He transforms us into His own image. It's what would make Paul something instead of nothing:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2
 
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fhansen

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And the same goes for love without faith, right?

So let's us set them against one another, by emphasizing one without the other.
And this is why, historically, the church has taught that faith can exist without love while love encompasses the virtues of both faith and hope; love would not exist apart from faith IOW. And this also makes sense of James 2:20:
"Even the demons believe—and shudder."

However, if we qualify and define faith to include a hope and trust in God and His promises through the revelation of His Son then, to the extent that we remain in that faith, that we remain in Him, that love will take root and grow and blossom along with even more faith and hope, grace leading to grace as they say. So you're right, at the end of the day it's pretty hard to separate them. Love is the goal, however. It's the authentic motivator for the good were expected to do, the overcoming of sin we're expected to achieve, the purification Jesus will do in us, the washing of our robes, the things done "for the least of these" in Matt 25. It's the opposite of legalism-it's pure grace.
 
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