Mainstream Christianity is wrong about Matthew 5:27-28 (the famous “lust” passage)

Dkh587

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Adultery is, first and foremost, sexual intercourse between a man and a woman that is married to another man.

When Messiah is talking about adultery and lusting(desiring) after a woman in your heart, he is referring to a married woman.

Desiring a married woman is adultery. She belongs to someone else.

desiring an unmarried woman is not adultery.
 
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Jamdoc

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If what OP said was true, then inappropriate contentography would not be a sin
Yet everyone feels convicted from viewing inappropriate contentography, unless their conscience has been seared.
That conviction should clue you in that no, you don't have to go so far as to making serious plans to fornicate or commit adultery with someone for the lust to be a sin.. simply viewing another person as just a sex object is enough to cross the line into sin.
 
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Billy93

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To a degree, I agree with the OP. The element of coveting is missing from typical estimations of lust, but you've oversold coveting. Coveting doesn't necessarily have to involve plotting/planning it is purely a matter of desire. It is envy. Being jealous over what someone else possesses/rightfully belonging to them. And that's what fantasizing involves, taking liberties in thought over something that you do not rightly possess. Lust is not simply appreciating beauty, even recognizing that someone is sexually desireable. It is indulging thoughts of inimacy when no such intimacy can properly be had. So it is often overstated when all sexual thought is condemned, but sexual fantasy is crossing the line.

Hm, I’d be willing to admit I’m wrong if that can be proven, - but I’ve read from multiple sources that claim “coveting” is directly tied to the idea of taking/wanting to take.

Is this video’s interpretation wrong?

 
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Billy93

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If what OP said was true, then inappropriate contentography would not be a sin
Yet everyone feels convicted from viewing inappropriate contentography, unless their conscience has been seared.
That conviction should clue you in that no, you don't have to go so far as to making serious plans to fornicate or commit adultery with someone for the lust to be a sin.. simply viewing another person as just a sex object is enough to cross the line into sin.

You do realize it is possible for people to incorrectly feel something is wrong/a sin based on how they’ve been raised/taught in church, right? We need to look to Scripture for our morals, not just how we feel. Feelings cannot be trusted. That being said, I don’t watch inappropriate content.
 
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Jamdoc

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You do realize it is possible for people to incorrectly feel something is wrong/a sin based on how they’ve been raised/taught in church, right? We need to look to Scripture for our morals, not just how we feel. Feelings cannot be trusted. That being said, I don’t watch inappropriate content.
Even without being raised that way people feel guilty viewing inappropriate content, they know it's wrong.

There is a LOT of tech that was not available in the time that the bible was written. If you went only with what was actually written down in the bible itself it's not sin to smoke weed, shoot heroin, play murder simulator video games, drink so much soda and energy drinks that you become diabetic, have a inappropriate contentography addiction, etc etc.
We can see how destructive those activities are, but if you go with just "no specific law against that, it's okay!" that's a misleading mindset.
 
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Billy93

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Adultery is, first and foremost, sexual intercourse between a man and a woman that is married to another man.

When Messiah is talking about adultery and lusting(desiring) after a woman in your heart, he is referring to a married woman.

Desiring a married woman is adultery. She belongs to someone else.

desiring an unmarried woman is not adultery.

That’s a more reasonable interpretation, but it still goes along with the idea that “lust” refers to even basic fantasizing, which I don’t believe it does. But yes, Jesus was deliberately speaking of a specific scenario in that passage.
 
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fhansen

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You’re right that sin originates in the heart, which is why covetousness is the heart-sin. But covetousness is more than simply fantasizing for a few minutes… And gluttony is over-indulgence and over-consumption of food; thinking about how good a cheeseburger would taste is not gluttony. Etc.
True enough. But when the taste of a cheeseburger becomes a god to us, thinking about it too much leads to gluttony.
 
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renniks

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? No, it’s not. Just because you spend a few minutes fantasizing about her doesn’t mean you’re thinking you actually want to be with her in real life, like you’d actually come over if I were gone and she were okay with it. It’s just fantasizing. Coveting is directly tied to taking.
One leads to the other. The only real difference is whether the opportunity exists.
 
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renniks

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You’re right that sin originates in the heart, which is why covetousness is the heart-sin. But covetousness is more than simply fantasizing for a few minutes…
Coveting
coveting (present participle)
  1. yearn to possess or have (something).
Nothing about length of time there.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Growing in Jesus is to desire what He wants and to take thoughts captive to His obedience, I cant imagine a mind full of sexual fantasy being sanctified.
To me the suggestion is bizarre.
You reap what you sow... The goal is pure thoughts, and to reject the little foxes that want to take residence in your mind.
A sanctified mind is at rest and in praise - not a mind filled with sexual fantasy.
He is to be at the centre of your thoughts - if you have recurring sexual thoughts then get prayer from a church leader or deliverance if necessary.
You may be struggling with an unclean spirit.
 
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coffee4u

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Lust does mean sexual fantasy.
Thinking "She's hot" is not sexual fantasy.
Undressing her mentally and having sex with her mentally is sexual fantasy and that = lust.
Most people using this verse ( myself included ) are talking about the second not the first.

God calls singles to be celibate. This includes controlling your thoughts.
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.1 Corinthians 10:13
 
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chad kincham

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See, that’s just not what it says though, sorry. From your response, it appears you missed the point of my post. The NT doesn’t teach that; it teaches that when you covet another man’s wife (10th commandment), you are committing adultery with her (7th commandment) in your heart. It is not just talking about “fantasizing” in general. The 10th commandment tells explicitly what Matthew 5:27-28 is referring to - so why don’t people go back to the 10th to find out what it means? Why do they instead lump on this “fantasizing” doctrine that is nowhere to be found...?

Because 1: the ten commands are called the covenant on two tables of stone, and the old covenant ended when the new, better, covenant came through Jesus Christ
2: the new covenant teaches us spiritual truths not stated in the old - you can’t say you have to define new covenant spiritual truth by looking at old, ended commands, which are superseded by the two love commands - and, no, the two are not simply the old ten restated - that would be redundant.
You can spin it if you want, and rationalize lusting in your heart after women, but that won’t change the facts - it’s a sin and spiritual adultery equivalent to physical adultery - as proven by the fact that hating your neighbor in your heart is equivalent to physical murder in the new covenant, but was not in the old covenant.
Thus you cannot use OT law to interpret new covenant law.
 
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Toro

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IF the woman is not in Gods plan for you, she belongs to someone else.

Even if she is to never marry, she ultimately belongs to her creator.

Justify the sin of lust all you want. But one day you will stand before your creator and you had better be sure before that day.

You are justified by Christ, not by the same words you used to excuse and justify sin as acceptable through your own intellect, twisting scripture to fit your desires.

Do we stand in agreement with God.... or do we agree with man.... that sin is acceptable, that we need not put on the garments of righteousness provided for us, cause what we come with is good enough.
 
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Fervent

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Hm, I’d be willing to admit I’m wrong if that can be proven, - but I’ve read from multiple sources that claim “coveting” is directly tied to the idea of taking/wanting to take.

Is this video’s interpretation wrong?

From the OT word study dictionary:
חָמַד ḥāmad, ‏חֲמוּדָה ḥamûdāh, חֲמֻדָה ḥamudāh: A verb meaning to take pleasure in, to desire, to lust, to covet, to be desirable, to desire passionately. The verb can mean to desire intensely even in its simple stem: the tenth commandment prohibits desiring to the point of coveting, such as a neighbor’s house, wife, or other assets (Ex. 20:17; cf. Ex. 34:24). Israel was not to covet silver or gold (Deut. 7:25; Josh. 7:21) or the fields and lands of others (Mic. 2:2). The word can also express slight variations in its basic meaning: the mountains of Bashan, including Mt. Hermon, looked in envy on the chosen mountains of Zion (Ps. 68:16[17]); the simple fool delighted in his naïve, senseless way of life (Prov. 1:22); and a man was not to lust after the beauty of an adulterous woman (Prov. 6:25).
The word expresses the idea of finding pleasure in something as when Israel took pleasure in committing spiritual fornication among its sacred oaks (Isa. 1:29). The passive participle of the simple stem indicates someone beloved or endearing (Isa. 53:2) but has a negative meaning in Job 20:20, indicating excessive desiring or craving (cf. Ps. 39:11[12]).
The passive stem indicates something that is worthy of being desired, desirable; the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil appeared inviting to make a person wise (Gen. 2:9; 3:6; Prov. 21:20) but proved to be destructive. The plural of this verbal stem expresses satisfaction or reward for keeping God’s Law (Ps. 19:10[11]).

Looking at the word in Matthew, from TDNT(Little Kittel) has this to say:
The group is more common in the epistles than the Gospels. It may denote hunger (Lk. 15:16), longing (Lk. 22:15), or a desire for the divine mysteries (Mt. 13:17) or for anything good (Phil. 1:23; 1 Tim. 3:1). But it usually denotes evil desire as indicated by the object (a woman in Mt. 5:28, other things in Mk. 4:19), by the orientation (cf. Gal. 5:17), by the instrument (the heart in Rom. 1:24, the body in Rom. 6:12, the flesh in Eph. 2:3, the eyes in 1 Jn. 2:16), or by the manner (carnal in 1 Pet. 2:11, worldly in Tit. 2:12, defiling in 2 Pet. 2:10, etc.). A Jewish model for Paul’s use of the term for the tenth commandment is found in Rom. 7:7. Hence one need not postulate Stoic influence except perhaps in 1 Th. 4:5. In any case, disobedience, not irrationality, is the evil in epithymía.
 
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Billy93

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IF the woman is not in Gods plan for you, she belongs to someone else.

Even if she is to never marry, she ultimately belongs to her creator.

Justify the sin of lust all you want. But one day you will stand before your creator and you had better be sure before that day.

You are justified by Christ, not by the same words you used to excuse and justify sin as acceptable through your own intellect, twisting scripture to fit your desires.

Do we stand in agreement with God.... or do we agree with man.... that sin is acceptable, that we need not put on the garments of righteousness provided for us, cause what we come with is good enough.

Annnd there it is. Wondered how long it would take to get one of these comments. “Justify the sin of lust”? Which “lust”? The lust that Matthew 5 refers to… which is 10th commandment covetousness? Or some other lust?

How am I “twisting scripture”? Dude, if you haven’t noticed, my whole argument is rooted in Scripture - in trying to interpret the passage as it actually means. You act like I’m just sitting here trying to justify sin; why then have I prayed numerous times about this issue over the last half-year? I’ve asked God repeatedly to convict me of this, if it is sin. Nothing. I’ve asked Him to lead me to the truth. Guess what? What I came to find, was that the passage has been misinterpreted. If I’m so wrong about this, then why isn’t the Holy Spirit showing me how? I’ve been led away from multiple other sins; why not this one? It’s not that I’m not willing.

Are you going to tell me how the articles I posted are all wrong? Are you going to tell me how Matthew 5 does not refer to covetousness? Comments like yours come across as emotional and stubborn, rooted in what you already think; you’re not even willing to address the argument I made. Do you not realize that I was raised to think the exact same way as you (and did for a while), and the only reason I’m thinking differently now is because of my research into the true meaning…?

How dare you act like I’m just trying to justify sin; the only people twisting Scripture are the ones acting like Matthew 5 refers to any and every sexual thought, rather than a specific admonition against coveting and adultery (which by the way involves a married woman).
 
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Billy93

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Lust does mean sexual fantasy.
Thinking "She's hot" is not sexual fantasy.
Undressing her mentally and having sex with her mentally is sexual fantasy and that = lust.
Most people using this verse ( myself included ) are talking about the second not the first.

God calls singles to be celibate. This includes controlling your thoughts.
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.1 Corinthians 10:13

Comments like yours are why I increasingly think I’m right. You show that you have no understanding of my argument/didn’t take the time to read. Yes, “lust” in your modern understanding does mean fantasizing. No argument against you there. But in Matthew 5:27-28, that is not what it means. I genuinely don’t understand why my argument is difficult to understand? It’s like people just skim over the argument and then respond with “Lust is a sin bc the Bible says it is in Matthew 5” - but the entire point is that that passage has been misinterpreted! Lol sorry, but it’s kind of maddening.
 
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Lifelong_sinner

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wow! this is such a stretch, im not saved and even i can see you are justifying lust. im as big a inappropriate content addict as they come, and even i know its a sin. and yes, im here to tell you that after almost 2 years of constantly asking God to help me beat this inappropriate content thing, nothing. im no further now than i was 2 yrs ago. but at the same time, i can admit looking at inappropriate content doesnt bother me in the least.

i suppose i know im going to hell though. im not saying you are, but even a hell bound adulterer like me can see you're trying to justify sin.
 
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Toro

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Annnd there it is. Wondered how long it would take to get one of these comments. “Justify the sin of lust”? Which “lust”? The lust that Matthew 5 refers to… which is 10th commandment covetousness? Or some other lust?

How am I “twisting scripture”? Dude, if you haven’t noticed, my whole argument is rooted in Scripture - in trying to interpret the passage as it actually means. You act like I’m just sitting here trying to justify sin; why then have I prayed numerous times about this issue over the last half-year? I’ve asked God repeatedly to convict me of this, if it is sin. Nothing. I’ve asked Him to lead me to the truth. Guess what? What I came to find, was that the passage has been misinterpreted. If I’m so wrong about this, then why isn’t the Holy Spirit showing me how? I’ve been led away from multiple other sins; why not this one? It’s not that I’m not willing.

Are you going to tell me how the articles I posted are all wrong? Are you going to tell me how Matthew 5 does not refer to covetousness? Comments like yours come across as emotional and stubborn, rooted in what you already think; you’re not even willing to address the argument I made. Do you not realize that I was raised to think the exact same way as you (and did for a while), and the only reason I’m thinking differently now is because of my research into the true meaning…?

How dare you act like I’m just trying to justify sin; the only people twisting Scripture are the ones acting like Matthew 5 refers to any and every sexual thought, rather than a specific admonition against coveting and adultery (which by the way involves a married woman).
Its your conscience.

We are warned multiple times at what we choose to believe and which path we follow.

We are told to evaluate ourselves and warn others that call themselves by His name to do the same. All I warned of is to properly evaluate yourself. We will all come to regret the times we failed to do so or refused warnings to do so

If you get upset over someone reminding you to evaluate where you stand rather than simply leaning on theories youve come up with.IF that upsets you.... especially since you claimed to expect it..... it is not the one giving a warning that is having the emotional response.

IF God does not have someone or something for you... yet you still desire it, you go against His will, period. Claiming in your desire to know better than God.

Because YOU want something or someone.

We are all guilty if it to some degree, but there are those that excuse/justify it and those that turn from it, repenting and turning to their Father instead.

If you evaluate yourself honestly and still come to the same conclusion of your theory... that is between you and God, for He is right to judge you as He sees fit.... as He will do with us all.
 
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Billy93

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From the OT word study dictionary:
חָמַד ḥāmad, ‏חֲמוּדָה ḥamûdāh, חֲמֻדָה ḥamudāh: A verb meaning to take pleasure in, to desire, to lust, to covet, to be desirable, to desire passionately. The verb can mean to desire intensely even in its simple stem: the tenth commandment prohibits desiring to the point of coveting, such as a neighbor’s house, wife, or other assets (Ex. 20:17; cf. Ex. 34:24). Israel was not to covet silver or gold (Deut. 7:25; Josh. 7:21) or the fields and lands of others (Mic. 2:2). The word can also express slight variations in its basic meaning: the mountains of Bashan, including Mt. Hermon, looked in envy on the chosen mountains of Zion (Ps. 68:16[17]); the simple fool delighted in his naïve, senseless way of life (Prov. 1:22); and a man was not to lust after the beauty of an adulterous woman (Prov. 6:25).
The word expresses the idea of finding pleasure in something as when Israel took pleasure in committing spiritual fornication among its sacred oaks (Isa. 1:29). The passive participle of the simple stem indicates someone beloved or endearing (Isa. 53:2) but has a negative meaning in Job 20:20, indicating excessive desiring or craving (cf. Ps. 39:11[12]).
The passive stem indicates something that is worthy of being desired, desirable; the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil appeared inviting to make a person wise (Gen. 2:9; 3:6; Prov. 21:20) but proved to be destructive. The plural of this verbal stem expresses satisfaction or reward for keeping God’s Law (Ps. 19:10[11]).

Looking at the word in Matthew, from TDNT(Little Kittel) has this to say:
The group is more common in the epistles than the Gospels. It may denote hunger (Lk. 15:16), longing (Lk. 22:15), or a desire for the divine mysteries (Mt. 13:17) or for anything good (Phil. 1:23; 1 Tim. 3:1). But it usually denotes evil desire as indicated by the object (a woman in Mt. 5:28, other things in Mk. 4:19), by the orientation (cf. Gal. 5:17), by the instrument (the heart in Rom. 1:24, the body in Rom. 6:12, the flesh in Eph. 2:3, the eyes in 1 Jn. 2:16), or by the manner (carnal in 1 Pet. 2:11, worldly in Tit. 2:12, defiling in 2 Pet. 2:10, etc.). A Jewish model for Paul’s use of the term for the tenth commandment is found in Rom. 7:7. Hence one need not postulate Stoic influence except perhaps in 1 Th. 4:5. In any case, disobedience, not irrationality, is the evil in epithymía.

Interesting, thank you.
 
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Billy93

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wow! this is such a stretch, im not saved and even i can see you are justifying lust. im as big a inappropriate content addict as they come, and even i know its a sin. and yes, im here to tell you that after almost 2 years of constantly asking God to help me beat this inappropriate content thing, nothing. im no further now than i was 2 yrs ago. but at the same time, i can admit looking at inappropriate content doesnt bother me in the least.

i suppose i know im going to hell though. im not saying you are, but even a hell bound adulterer like me can see you're trying to justify sin.

By lust, do you mean justifying fantasizing? Absolutely I’m justifying that, because I believe the Bible doesn’t address it in Matthew 5:27-28 even though preachers act like it does. The verses used to condemn that, are being wrongly interpreted. Where did I say I watch inappropriate content…? I don’t, and I think it’s unhealthy. Why is my point so difficult to understand?
 
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