What happens after death?

ArmyMatt · Mar 12, 2021

there is also the dead Moses appearing at the Transfiguration.

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2021

BobRyan said: ↑
What does your Bible say in 1 Thess 4:13-18?

prodromos said:
What does our Lord say in John 11:11-14?

It's a euphemism for death.

It starts off like this -- "11 This He said, and after this He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going so that I may awaken him from sleep.”

Matt 10:28 says "do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in fiery hell" - so in Christ's teaching the body is killed not merely dormant in fact in 2 Cor 5:1-6 the body is decaying and laid aside.

So I see your point that the term refers to the death of the person "our friend Lazarus". But sleep is more "alive" then outright death - wouldn't you agree? Something is in fact not dead - it is merely dormant or "asleep" in that case.

1 Thess 4:13-18 appears to start off exactly the same as that.

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I am not convinced it was Samual.

I cant imagine a Holy God breaking His order at the wim of a witch...

This is a good point .. in 1 Sam 28 we are told that God forbade all prophets to communicate with King Saul. In that chapter Saul "gets around God" by asking demons to get him in touch with the prophet because what?? What is he thinking???

Is he thinking that we all know demons have full control of the departed souls of God's prophets ?? seriously?? What scripture was telling Saul "that"??!

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

(AS IF that is even a thing!!!)

Is Samuel going to say "well God commanded me not to speak to you about the future etc or any message from God - but the demons here seem to think it is best if I ignore that so they have brought me here to give you God's message, so I guess in this case it is ok to ignore God's command for a moment"... ???

Seriously??

"whose program" whose "storyline" is it - that has demons in control of the souls of God's saints? IS that God's storyline??

Notice that in 1 Chron 10:13 God says that Saul's doom was sealed by his act of seeking out the demon "to inquire of it" even though Saul is describing it as seeking out Samuel to inquire of him.

"13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;"

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
there is also the dead Moses appearing at the Transfiguration.

That is actually a much better solution than to use 1 Sam 28 - which would argue the idea that demons are in control of the souls of the saints.
#23
(An argument I personally find hard to adopt as something the Bible endorses, but am interested to know if there is even one denomination that goes for that as an approved doctrine in the specific case of 1 Sam 28)

In Matt 17 both Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ before the cross -- and appear to be more or less the same in terms of existence and function.

We know from 2 Kings 2 that Elijah did not die - he was translated directly to heaven.

By contrast to Elijah -- Moses died, that is for sure. But we also know something else about Moses - Jude 1:9 quotes from the pseudepigraphal book "the Assumption of Moses" to reference the dispute over the body of Moses at the time he was to be resurrected and bodily assumed into Heaven. So there is at least the possibility of a Bible argument that by the time of Matt 17 - Moses was in an equal condition/state-of-being as Elijah.

Carl Emerson · Mar 12, 2021

prodromos said:
I'm afraid that is too vague. God permits a great many evils to occur in this world because He respects the free will He has given us. What is it about this particular evil that makes it unlikely in your mind?

Verse 15 really doesn't allow for that option. I find it much harder to believe God's word would say Samuel was speaking if in fact it was a demon speaking.

I didn't say a demon... God himself has deceiving angels.

I am happy to refer to scripture to support my position but I am uncertain if I am allowed to on this forum.

Carl Emerson · Mar 12, 2021

I have just read what Bob posted and to me he covered the matter rather well.
I am however still considering that the voice of Samuel may have been from an angel sent to deceive rather than a demon.
Remember the 'appearance of Samual' was not seen by Saul but in the mediums imagination. This is not to be likened to the mount of transfiguration when disciples all saw Moses and Elijah. I tried to make this distinction in an earlier post.

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I have just read what Bob posted and to me he covered the matter rather well.
I am however still considering that the voice of Samuel may have been from an angel sent to deceive rather than a demon.
Remember the 'appearance of Samual' was not seen by Saul but in the mediums imagination. This is not to be likened to the mount of transfiguration when disciples all saw Moses and Elijah. I tried to make this distinction in an earlier post.

well we agree on two points -

1. Saul did not see Samuel - the witch is the only one with that "power"
2. There was an angel sent there to deceive.

But Saul is specific "by thy familiar spirit" and in 1 Chron 10:"13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;"

In 1 Cor 10 God's summary of it is that it is not a good angel that is inquired of - it is the familiar spirit that is inquired of. And referred to in the demeaning term "it"

Now you could argue that a good angel stepped in to impersonate a familiar spirit impersonating Samuel but I am reluctant to take it to that point. It would be a good angel only visible to the witch and who presents Samuel as doing something that would be in violation of God's command to prophets at the time.

Carl Emerson · Mar 12, 2021

BobRyan said:
But Saul is specific "by thy familiar spirit" and in 1 Chron 10:"13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;"

Yes I agree that this was his sin, but the demonic cannot act without divine consent (Job), and the Lord may very well have intervened and had an angel bring Samual's voice. Personally I feel more comfortable with this possibility.

Carl Emerson · Mar 12, 2021

The main point in question though is - can this be an example of the dead returning - and I say no.

seaofsand · Mar 12, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
there is also the dead Moses appearing at the Transfiguration.

Thanks for the Orthodox perspective, which is what I am seeking here. This is a perfect example.

ArmyMatt · Mar 12, 2021

seaofsand said:
Thanks for the Orthodox perspective, which is what I am seeking here. This is a perfect example.

no problem

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Yes I agree that this was his sin, but the demonic cannot act without divine consent (Job),

Agreed - whatever happened - God had to have allowed it.

SalemsConcordance · Mar 12, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Not to disagree with you in general principle, but when Samuel appeared to Saul and the Witch at Endor, he didn't seem very happy about it, and the witch seemed rather taken aback. I believe it was indeed Samuel.

Carl Emerson said:
I am not convinced it was Samual.
I cant imagine a Holy God breaking His order at the wim of a witch...

prodromos said:
Verse 15 really doesn't allow for that option. I find it much harder to believe God's word would say Samuel was speaking if in fact it was a demon speaking.

Elder Cleopa: "In addition to all of this, the Holy Fathers tells us that in the case of Saul and the witch, it was not the spirit of Samuel that appeared, but a demonic spirit that had supplanted the spirit of Samuel. Saint Gregory of Nyssa says that the spirit was so dreadful and hideous, that the sorceress was frightened by it. " On Magic and Occultism

If you search for Samuel, you will find St Gregory of Nyssa in this:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Saint Gregory of Nyssa

For the OP, there is also Matthew 27:52.

From the Orthodox Study Bible commentary:
27:52, 53 The completeness of the salvation won by Christ is signified in the resurrections of the saints from the OT. This guarantees the promise given to Ezekiel that God can and will one day open the graves of all mankind (Ezk 37:1-14). The saints entering the holy city is an icon of resurrected humanity entering the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 11:10; 12:22,23; Rev 21:2-22:5).

Light of the East · Mar 13, 2021

If I might share what I believe, based on what I have read in Orthodox publications.

I expect to come immediately into the presence of Christ. He is Truth. All the deep inner falsehoods, the sins, the passions I have not overcome will be brought out to be dealt with. I expect the fire of His passionate love to work in me a deep repentant sorrow that I have not experienced here. Only a very few of the righteous (I think of the monks of Mt. Athos) have ever reached that deep level of repentance, yet when spoken to about it, they will say "I do not think I have even begun to repent"

I expect this experience to be a painful but necessary chastening to cleanse me of all that is not like Him. I expect the fire of His passionate love to enter into my very being. It will be the smelter's fire spoken of in Scripture.

And when done, I have hope to enter forever into a union of love with He who loved me enough to die for me, even while I was still in sin.

prodromos · Mar 16, 2021

SalemsConcordance said:
Elder Cleopa: "In addition to all of this, the Holy Fathers tells us that in the case of Saul and the witch, it was not the spirit of Samuel that appeared, but a demonic spirit that had supplanted the spirit of Samuel. Saint Gregory of Nyssa says that the spirit was so dreadful and hideous, that the sorceress was frightened by it. " On Magic and Occultism

If you search for Samuel, you will find St Gregory of Nyssa in this:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Saint Gregory of Nyssa

1 Chronicles 10:13 (Septuagint)

καὶ ἀπέθανε Σαοὺλ ἐν ταῖς ἀνομίαις αὐτοῦ, αἷς ἠνόμησε τῷ Θεῷ κατὰ τὸν λόγον Κυρίου, διότι οὐκ ἐφύλαξεν· ὅτι ἐπηρώτησε Σαοὺλ ἐν τῶ ἐγγαστριμύθῳ τοῦ ζητῆσαι, καὶ ἀπεκρίνατο αὐτῷ Σαμουὴλ ὁ προφήτης·

So Saul died for his transgressions, wherein he transgressed against God, against the word of the Lord, forasmuch as he kept [it] not, because Saul enquired of a wizard to seek [counsel], and Samuel the prophet answered him:

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 16, 2021

My only slight problem with what Father says here is the part about hell and us being "apart" from God if we are so cursed to end up there. My understanding is that there is no place where God IS NOT. Hell is not apart from God, it is for many being forced to be in His Divine Presence, which is a burning misery for those who have lived a life nurturing our egos and self-love.

Lukaris said:
I asked our parish priest your questions by e-mail & he replied:

Hi Ed,
Hope you're doing well today.
I'll try to answer as briefly and concisely as possible.
Souls do not "sleep" until the Last Judgment. They experience a partial judgment in the sense that they experience a foretaste of heaven, which is being in the presence of God, or what is often called "hell" which is being separated from God. They are not asleep but are in a state of awareness. Several "proofs" of this are the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in which both were departed but fully aware of their own situations as well as the situation of the other. Lazarus was in the presence of God--Abraham's bosom--while the Rich Man was tormented because he was separated from God and didn't want his family members to suffer the same fate. A second "proof" is shown in the Icon of Holy Saturday known as the Descent into Hades or in the Western tradition the Descent into Limbo. It shows what we believe, that is while Christ's body lay lifeless in the tomb, His soul was nevertheless aware and active conquering Death and raising up Adam and Eve and those waiting in Hades for the coming of the Messiah.
We must also remember that when we are departed, we are no longer in "earthly" time but "Heavenly" or "God's" time. As a result, a thousand years are like one second in our earthly time. So those who have departed have not been waiting or will not be waiting for hundreds of thousands of years in "earthly" time for Christ to come again. It will be like a matter of seconds.
There is nothing "demonic" or "delusional" about the departed "visiting" the living. We have numerous accounts of Saints doing just that. I have witnessed accounts of many cases of this where departed loved ones "appeared" to living relatives, sometimes to comfort them and at other times to let them know that their earthly life was about to end and their eternal life was about to begin and they would soon be reunited. Many have been comforted and others comforted and prepared for death by those "visions". This is not far fetched because, as I said earlier, their souls remain alive and active and we do believe that we will be reunited with our departed loved ones when this earthly life ends and we will join them to await Christ's second coming

ArmyMatt · Mar 16, 2021

gurneyhalleck1 said:
My only slight problem with what Father says here is the part about hell and us being "apart" from God if we are so cursed to end up there. My understanding is that there is no place where God IS NOT. Hell is not apart from God, it is for many being forced to be in His Divine Presence, which is a burning misery for those who have lived a life nurturing our egos and self-love.

correct. you can think of it as a relational separation, but not a spacial one.

Phronema · Mar 16, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
correct. you can think of it as a relational separation, but not a spacial one.

Father, is that found in the writings of St. Maximos the Confessor? Or is it another of the Saints?

ArmyMatt · Mar 16, 2021

Phronema said:
Father, is that found in the writings of St. Maximos the Confessor? Or is it another of the Saints?

he talks about it, as does St Ephraim of Syria.

Phronema · Mar 16, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
he talks about it, as does St Ephraim of Syria.

Thank you, Father! I'll check more into St. Ephraim's writings as well.

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