Gracepointe Church in Nashville says the Bible is not the word of God

SkyWriting said:

"The saints will judge the world"
All cross-references fail to back the claim that lay folks are qualified to judge.

1 Cor 6:2 Cross References (15 Verses)

1 Corinthians 6:2 Cross References: Or know ye not that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

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This isn't a clergy vs laity issue. All Christians are called to judge, we're called to judge the false apostles, reject the teachers of Balaam, condemn the Nicolatians, not tolerate Jezebel and her teaching. We are called to holiness, and that holiness includes discerning and marking teachers of things contrary to Christ. Tolerance becomes sin when it becomes permissiveness.

Saint Steven said:

You are over-reacting to the little bit you read. But I don't suppose you will ever warm up to this group until you can learn to take a broader view of things.

And frankly, these folks are way ahead of you. They found a church where they belong.

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I only take a Bible view of things. Again, they reject the doctrine of Christ, their website says as much. Since they are not following Christ's doctrine what are they following?

Saint Steven said:

Seriously?
People come to Christ for a relationship all the time with no clue about doctrine. That's what discipleship is for. To learn boring doctrines. Zzzz...

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No doctrine = not of God, 2 John 1:8-10.

Salvation itself is doctrine.

Again, what is one following if they are not following doctrine of Christ?

Saint Steven said:

What's to prove? Did Jesus ever say anything about doctrine?

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Yes, His teachings are doctrine, 2 John 1:9....teachings = doctrine.

If one is not following Christ's doctrine then what are they following?

Fervent said:

This isn't a clergy vs laity issue. All Christians are called to judge, we're called to judge the false apostles, reject the teachers of Balaam, condemn the Nicolatians, not tolerate Jezebel and her teaching. We are called to holiness, and that holiness includes discerning and marking teachers of things contrary to Christ. Tolerance becomes sin when it becomes permissiveness.

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I looked into this and now I understand why you provided no scripture to support your sermon:

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:3
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Matthew 7:1
“Judge not, that you be not judged.

1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

James 4:11
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

1 Corinthians 6:1-20
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, ...

Matthew 7:3-5
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

(Please note that the term speck remains a speck)

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

John 8:16
Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

Saint Steven said:

Which one? Or are you still lost? - lol

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The one that possesses the one faith of the NT. If I do not possess that one faith I will be lost. Any and all that do not possess it will be lost.

SkyWriting said:

That's what I said. The letters to the churches were to churches
that did not have the New Testament. They were to house churches that
were not even born yet. It was advice to Preemies not adults.

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The term "churches" does not refer to a mulitude of different organizations with different orgins and different beliefs but refers to the various congregations in different locations that are all part of the one body. In the first century these congregations had the inspired Apostles and their letters to go by and passed those inspired letters around to each other, Colossians 4:16. So yes, in the first century they had the NT either given them orally by inspired Apostle or by inspired written letters. Those letters were not conveniently compiled into one book in the 1st century but they still had the NT.

SkyWriting said:

No, they don't.

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Yes, all these relgious groups contradict each other over any issue you can think of...just look around this forum.

SkyWriting said:

I looked into this and now I understand why you provided no scripture to support your sermon:

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

James 4:12
There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Romans 2:3
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

Matthew 7:1
“Judge not, that you be not judged.

1 Corinthians 5:12
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?

Matthew 7:5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

James 1:26
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.

Titus 3:2
To speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

John 8:7
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

James 4:11
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Matthew 7:1-2
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

1 Corinthians 6:1-20
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, ...

Matthew 7:3-5
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

(Please note that the term speck remains a speck)

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

John 8:16
Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

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I didn't provide direct quotes because out of context snippets more often are used to try to prove what the presenter desires the Bible to say rather than understanding the full message. If you notice, though, all of my references come from a single place in the Bible where Jesus commends the church for judging false teachers and condemns them for their failure to do so. We would have to examine each of your verses in depth to determine whether they are in fact relevant to this question, and what they say on the issue rather than simply pulling them without context as a pretext. If you care to do the deep work, I'll take you through a few to show that your usage is entirely inappropriate.

mario1001 said:

Here’s the trajectory your church will follow once it's gone Woke A very unsettling article about Gracepointe Church in Nashville which is now outright denying the Bible as the word of God. 2 Timothy 4:3 is being lived out before our very eyes.

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Nobody reading this need worry. Churches don't change. If enough people are interested, they leave and form a new church. But churches don't change and there is nothing to worry about.

Philippians 4:6-7
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 5:7
Casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Matthew 6:25-34
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. ...

Proverbs 12:25
Anxiety in a man's heart weighs him down, but a good word makes him glad.

Matthew 6:33-34
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Fervent said:

I didn't provide direct quotes because out of context snippets more often are used to try to prove what the presenter desires the Bible to say rather than understanding the full message. If you notice, though, all of my references come from a single place in the Bible where Jesus commends the church for judging false teachers and condemns them for their failure to do so. We would have to examine each of your verses in depth to determine whether they are in fact relevant to this question, and what they say on the issue rather than simply pulling them without context as a pretext. If you care to do the deep work, I'll take you through a few to show that your usage is entirely inappropriate.

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And this is why you provide no scripture:

Matthew 7:1-29 <---This is the link to all the context

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Matthew 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Matthew 7:2
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Romans 14:10
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

Romans 2:21-24
You then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Romans 2:1
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Romans 15:1
We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.


.

mario1001 said:

Here’s the trajectory your church will follow once it's gone Woke A very unsettling article about Gracepointe Church in Nashville which is now outright denying the Bible as the word of God. 2 Timothy 4:3 is being lived out before our very eyes.

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(Being lived out before our very eyes with this O.P.)

Romans 14
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls.

Butterball1 said:

Yes, all these relgious groups contradict each other over any issue you can think of...just look around this forum.

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There are about 10 viewers for each Reply.
So the forum is mostly used by the 10% or less who don't agree.
And the disagreements cover less than 1% of scripture.

Replies:
212
Views:
2,763

SkyWriting said:

And this is why you provide no scripture:

Matthew 7:1-29 <---This is the link to all the context

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ...

Matthew 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Matthew 7:2
For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Romans 14:10
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

Romans 2:21-24
You then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

Romans 2:1
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Romans 15:1
We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.


.

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Apparently I have to spoon feed you, because I did provide Scripture through allusion.

“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.

2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

To the Church in Smyrna
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

To the Church in Pergamum
12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

To the Church in Thyatira
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

As for your references, let's begin with Matthew 7. Does Jesus command us not to judge? Or is there more to it?

“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Jesus tells his disciples to take the speck out of their brother's eyes once they have addressed the log in their own. The message is not do not judge, but to not judge hypocritically. I do not fear judgement, as I trust that I will pass being judged in this area. I am not hypocritically excusing sin through permissiveness while judging them for doing so. And why does your quote of the "full context" stop just short of this line? Was that an intentional edit or just happenstance you cut it off in such an odd place conveniently right before the affirmation of judgment is made?

Fervent said:

“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.

2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

To the Church in Smyrna
8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

To the Church in Pergamum
12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality. 15 So also you have some who hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. 17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’

To the Church in Thyatira
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

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That matches what I've been saying exactly. Thank you.
Only Jesus is qualified to judge any sin. No lay people.

John 8:15-16
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.


I think you can admit you are not part of the throne crew.
Perhaps in the future. But at this time we are not qualified to judge others.
And even then, we can only judge specks properly.
Tiny little specks are our limit.

SkyWriting said:

That matches what I've been saying exactly. Thank you.
Only Jesus is qualified to judge.

John 8:15-16
You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.

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That's not what it says at all, just a massive twisting for a self-serving permissiveness. Let's just take the first, the praise of Ephesus. What were they praised for? Judging false apostles false. Testing and judging. And what were the Thyatirans condemned for? Tolerating false teaching in the name of Jezebel. A failure to judge. If Jesus means to convey that only He is fit to judge it's rather a poor job of it condemning one group for not judging and praising another for judging.

Fervent said:

That's not what it says at all, just a massive twisting for a self-serving permissiveness. Let's just take the first, the praise of Ephesus. What were they praised for? Judging false apostles false. Testing and judging. And what were the Thyatirans condemned for? Tolerating false teaching in the name of Jezebel. A failure to judge. If Jesus means to convey that only He is fit to judge it's rather a poor job of it condemning one group for not judging and praising another for judging.

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Only Jesus is judging in Revelation. Jesus and the Father. Context.

SkyWriting said:

There are about 10 viewers for each Reply.
So the forum is mostly used by the 10% or less who don't agree.
And the disagreements cover less than 1% of scripture.

Replies:
212
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2,763

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Again, the disgreements are there and they are many and they run deep. Salvation is an important issue, so start a thread asking posters to present their belief on how one is saved and sit back and watch all the differences, mutually exclusive differences come in.

SkyWriting said:

Only Jesus is judging in Revelation. Jesus and the Father. Context.

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The final judgment isn't really relevant and your statement is more of a diversion than anything else. Jesus praises the Ephesians for judging false apostles and rebukes the Thyatirans for their refusal to judge. The issue with judgment is not the act of judging, but the hypocritical manner judgment often takes place. A righteous man will gladly be judged, because what's false needs to be removed. Your abdicating the responsibility of judging false teachings is sin, a sin you need to repent of.

Rebuke a wise person and he will love you.(Proverbs 9:8b NASB)

Fervent said:

The final judgment isn't really relevant and your statement is more of a diversion than anything else. Jesus praises the Ephesians for judging false apostles and rebukes the Thyatirans for their refusal to judge. The issue with judgment is not the act of judging, but the hypocritical manner judgment often takes place. A righteous man will gladly be judged, because what's false needs to be removed. Your abdicating the responsibility of judging false teachings is sin, a sin you need to repent of.

Rebuke a wise person and he will love you.(Proverbs 9:8b NASB)

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Everything you've posted agrees with my premise that only Christ can judge
and none else is qualified. The only exception is that lay people are permitted
to judge specks and only under the counseling of church leaders with experience.
And they can only judge specks after removing logs from their own lives.